What would you do??
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If it's already been taken to the chief pilot, I would normally say your involvement ends there. However, if you still feel compelled to act, then perhaps your pilot group, union, or organization has a pro standards committee with whom you can discuss your concern?
using more discretion this time
there is no more hazardous a maneuver than sudden control reversals in an airplane ---the certifcation requirements do not even consider that--as resonance may develop and quickly result in a catastrophic failure even on a Pitts special or an extra or an f-22 or a cub or a 737---and even at or below Va ---your collegues have given excellent suggestions --I just want to- again- remind everyone that no airplane is certified for such abuse --as for further comment from me on this issue
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Good subject, and some dam good discussion points here, although the answer is ever so simply, report it to your National Airworthiness Authority, while these threads are being read and your thinking about your position who is this fool going to kill?
Don’t think report…
Don’t think report…
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This could only happen in the airlines......or be considered acceptable, or possible..as a consequence of their hiring practices..and union protection....Had this happened on a corporate jet, pilots would have been fired, and I would be doing the subsequent flights untill either A) I was offerered the position b) they found suitable replacements.
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001,
First of all, get good advice from your union!
But have you recently tried speaking to this captain 'mano-a-mano' (no gender implications!) - in a non-threatening and open manner?
If not, you may wish to consider this option before doing anything else. I say this, as going down the CAA/FAA/ASR/MOR etc route is fraught with problems - not least of which is that you depend on your current chief pilot (whom you will be openly criticising) for your continued employment and eventually command assessment. If you get known as a trouble-maker, your position gets awkward. (Been there, done that!) However, your conscience might dictate that you do have to take it further, as the risk of saying nothing and then this captain killing a plane load of passengers, would not be pleasant knowledge with which to live.
If you get to speak to the capt in question, apologise for going behind his/her back directly to the Chief Pilot but also mention your genuine safety concerns and the collection of evidence (once you have other FO's and CCs statements). Then ask him (politely) to desist from his inexplicable control inputs - if only for a/c structural-integrity reasons. However, firmly and calmly state that if he continues in his ways, then you (and others) will be left with no alternative but to take it outside the company. (Assertive behaviour in practice?) A witness to this conversation might be a good idea - the union might help here - especially if they represent the captain too?
I don't wish to pre-judge this captain but you may get nowhere with this approach but it is far less contfrontational and gives him a way out - a win-win situation for both parties and, at least, you will have tried. This will be in your favour, especially if it gets nasty later. However, if you do go this far, you might want to start quietly looking for alternative employment as the chief pilot (and possibly the captain) may have friends in the training dept who can ensure your life is a misery and command will become but a dream in your present company.
Failing that, the crash axe also get my vote!
Good Luck
flipster
First of all, get good advice from your union!
But have you recently tried speaking to this captain 'mano-a-mano' (no gender implications!) - in a non-threatening and open manner?
If not, you may wish to consider this option before doing anything else. I say this, as going down the CAA/FAA/ASR/MOR etc route is fraught with problems - not least of which is that you depend on your current chief pilot (whom you will be openly criticising) for your continued employment and eventually command assessment. If you get known as a trouble-maker, your position gets awkward. (Been there, done that!) However, your conscience might dictate that you do have to take it further, as the risk of saying nothing and then this captain killing a plane load of passengers, would not be pleasant knowledge with which to live.
If you get to speak to the capt in question, apologise for going behind his/her back directly to the Chief Pilot but also mention your genuine safety concerns and the collection of evidence (once you have other FO's and CCs statements). Then ask him (politely) to desist from his inexplicable control inputs - if only for a/c structural-integrity reasons. However, firmly and calmly state that if he continues in his ways, then you (and others) will be left with no alternative but to take it outside the company. (Assertive behaviour in practice?) A witness to this conversation might be a good idea - the union might help here - especially if they represent the captain too?
I don't wish to pre-judge this captain but you may get nowhere with this approach but it is far less contfrontational and gives him a way out - a win-win situation for both parties and, at least, you will have tried. This will be in your favour, especially if it gets nasty later. However, if you do go this far, you might want to start quietly looking for alternative employment as the chief pilot (and possibly the captain) may have friends in the training dept who can ensure your life is a misery and command will become but a dream in your present company.
Failing that, the crash axe also get my vote!
Good Luck
flipster
Last edited by flipster; 10th Jan 2009 at 09:17.
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Again, good discussion points.... whats wrong with anonymous reporting to the authorities????
Or are we going to be starting a thread that says, "I should have reported it before someone died."
The perceived reluctance to report issues is somewhat inconsistent with modern safety teaching and what is expected of us as professionals in an industry where if we make a mistake we can kill people.
Or are we going to be starting a thread that says, "I should have reported it before someone died."
The perceived reluctance to report issues is somewhat inconsistent with modern safety teaching and what is expected of us as professionals in an industry where if we make a mistake we can kill people.
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Numpty pilot
As a 145 QM I would want to know what was going on when the tapes of the flights where downloaded. ( I assume they are on the 737) As the QM I would be asking some awkward questions to operations as to what was happening on these flights. Have you spoke to your maintenance QM? we are approcable and can help and support on issues like this as it is our techies signing for the plane and saying it is servicable, but if we dont get facts from crew it is your lives on the line.
failing that the old fashioned corrective education session around the back of the hangar can be very soothing.
failing that the old fashioned corrective education session around the back of the hangar can be very soothing.
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having read the thread on a certain middle eastern airline on the middle east forums i think maybe the person experiencing this problem may have no recourse to normal reporting channels
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In a strange way it reminds me of the case here
Industry CRM Developers - Situational Awareness Management Course Outline
it involved a B52 pilot and eventually the only people that would fly with him were senior officers as everyone else refused to and he eventually took them all to their graves.....
Industry CRM Developers - Situational Awareness Management Course Outline
it involved a B52 pilot and eventually the only people that would fly with him were senior officers as everyone else refused to and he eventually took them all to their graves.....
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Diverging a little from the general flow of discussion..................
I accurately recall about 30 years ago a report of an American captain who partook of similar inexplicable and dangerous activities. He was previously a well experienced, professional, and cautious pilot. The change was fairly rapid.
Several F/Os did report his activities, and to the credit of the airline management, fully investigated the matter, including psychological evaluation.
He had a rapidly developing brain tumor, which was, fortunately, successfully removed. After surgery, his behaviour became normal again.
The original poster has stated that both he and the captain are "old-timers". I'd like to ask, was his behaviour always like this, or is it a recent development?
I have long ago discarded the original report, I'd be interested to know if anyone still has access to information on this case. It was quoted in many airline's safety journals at the time.
Regards,
Old Smokey
I accurately recall about 30 years ago a report of an American captain who partook of similar inexplicable and dangerous activities. He was previously a well experienced, professional, and cautious pilot. The change was fairly rapid.
Several F/Os did report his activities, and to the credit of the airline management, fully investigated the matter, including psychological evaluation.
He had a rapidly developing brain tumor, which was, fortunately, successfully removed. After surgery, his behaviour became normal again.
The original poster has stated that both he and the captain are "old-timers". I'd like to ask, was his behaviour always like this, or is it a recent development?
I have long ago discarded the original report, I'd be interested to know if anyone still has access to information on this case. It was quoted in many airline's safety journals at the time.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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Miles,
In reality, there is rarely such thing as 'anonymous reporting' for the simple fact that the reported person probably knows who did the reporting - and they can/will then undermine the reportee's position with their employers. As I suggest, a direct and open approach leading to a win-win situation is possibly the reporter's best bet. Failing that, I agree that reporting the perpetrator is the reportees only recourse because saying nothing is not an option - esp in this case. If reporting is necessary - have the door to escape tunnel well and truly open!
flipster
In reality, there is rarely such thing as 'anonymous reporting' for the simple fact that the reported person probably knows who did the reporting - and they can/will then undermine the reportee's position with their employers. As I suggest, a direct and open approach leading to a win-win situation is possibly the reporter's best bet. Failing that, I agree that reporting the perpetrator is the reportees only recourse because saying nothing is not an option - esp in this case. If reporting is necessary - have the door to escape tunnel well and truly open!
flipster
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Stop that,
stop that,
my controls.
Chief pilot,
company quality system,
authorities.
Edit: of course in the tactful manner that this rather awkward situation requires. Talking to him, talking about it, fill in the rest. Point is not to let your skipper screw up just because he's the skipper. That is in fact pretty much the only thing I'm paid to do.
stop that,
my controls.
Chief pilot,
company quality system,
authorities.
Edit: of course in the tactful manner that this rather awkward situation requires. Talking to him, talking about it, fill in the rest. Point is not to let your skipper screw up just because he's the skipper. That is in fact pretty much the only thing I'm paid to do.
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msr001 - You have had plenty of input here. How about you telling us the country of registration and that of the operator. This has a bearing on which route you take to fix your/our problem - and let's face it, you are now "honour bound" to do something. None of want to hear that the rudder has fallen an aircraft or cabin crew/passengers have been injured.
PM
PM
Moderator
Let's leave the operator out of it unless you can provide evidence to substantiate the matter ... or it is already in the public domain elsewhere.
