CRM Assesment
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CRM Assesment
This question is mailnly directed at airline crew but all input will be welcome.
My airline (South African Airways) is about to introduce CRM assesment into ratings and management acceptance route checks. The is all part of the airlines move to OBE (Outcome Based Education) training and testing. It now means that you can fly a great test but fail on your CRM skills (or lack thereof)
My question is this. How many other airlines actually asses their pilots CRM skills as opposed to just using it as a training and safety tool?
My airline (South African Airways) is about to introduce CRM assesment into ratings and management acceptance route checks. The is all part of the airlines move to OBE (Outcome Based Education) training and testing. It now means that you can fly a great test but fail on your CRM skills (or lack thereof)
My question is this. How many other airlines actually asses their pilots CRM skills as opposed to just using it as a training and safety tool?
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Most UK airlines I think, but it is not a 'pass/fail' item, rather a 'debrief' item.
OBE!!! I prefer Income Based Education
Sounds like some top 'management-speak' going on there.
OBE!!! I prefer Income Based Education
Sounds like some top 'management-speak' going on there.
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I don't see a problem in it. Everyone can talk about what CRM is and how to best practise it, but it's a whole different ballgame to actually be able to use these skills. A very reasonable part of any line check.
/LnS
/LnS
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Dear LnS
I will never doubt the importance of CRM. I fact I see it as the single most important safety tool we have. My worry is that it is now becoming a asset aspect. Are we not moving away from 'just culture' mentality which has taken so long to enstill? How do you asses CRM anyway. By what defined criteria do you measure someones CRM skills?
DH
I will never doubt the importance of CRM. I fact I see it as the single most important safety tool we have. My worry is that it is now becoming a asset aspect. Are we not moving away from 'just culture' mentality which has taken so long to enstill? How do you asses CRM anyway. By what defined criteria do you measure someones CRM skills?
DH
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CRM is generally assessed according to very carefully defined criteria. NOTECHS is one example, developed within Europe to assess non-technical skills as objectively as possible. The University of Texas developed its own set of criteria, and various Airlines use a variation of these techniques.
In a nutshell, non-technical skills are divided into categories: eg Leadership and management, situational awareness, decision-making and cooperation. These are then subdivided into elements, each of which will have examples of desirable and undesirable behaviours. These are known as "behavioual markers" For example: poor practice - "Does not intervene in case of deviations" , good practice: "intervenes if task completion deviates from standards". There is then a need to set the pass/fail standard - do you let someone pass whose behaviour has not resulted in an unsafe situation on this occasion, but potentially could? Or do you need to have evidence of a technical failure as the outcome of the CRM problem in order to fail a line check? Dfferent operators will have different views on this.
Hope this explains the methodolgy a bit - its a big subject!
In a nutshell, non-technical skills are divided into categories: eg Leadership and management, situational awareness, decision-making and cooperation. These are then subdivided into elements, each of which will have examples of desirable and undesirable behaviours. These are known as "behavioual markers" For example: poor practice - "Does not intervene in case of deviations" , good practice: "intervenes if task completion deviates from standards". There is then a need to set the pass/fail standard - do you let someone pass whose behaviour has not resulted in an unsafe situation on this occasion, but potentially could? Or do you need to have evidence of a technical failure as the outcome of the CRM problem in order to fail a line check? Dfferent operators will have different views on this.
Hope this explains the methodolgy a bit - its a big subject!
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At my last CRM course with Virgin Blue they discussed the possibility of moving to an assessment based course as CASA would like to see this happen at the moment. CASA looked at bringing it in a few years ago but had a change of heart. However with the recent change of government in Australia it has been put on the agenda again.
The big question was how do you assess it? If it is done by instructors how do you ensure that they maintain a level playing field. One persons opinion can be vastly different from another's.
The big question was how do you assess it? If it is done by instructors how do you ensure that they maintain a level playing field. One persons opinion can be vastly different from another's.
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You may be surprised. The JAR-Tel project was designed to test NOTECHS by taking 85 different pilots from different operators in different countries around Europe. They were shown a series of videos of simulator scenarios and asked to rate the crew as depicted. There was a very high level of inter-rater agreement, not just on the final outcome pass/fail, but also on the areas of concern.
I have used these same videos on CRMI(Line) workshops, and I can say the same - generally people recognize dangerous behaviour when they can see it from a detached position.
Obviously these videos are scripted, so slightly artificial, but equally, real simulator recordings could be used if you had a database of sufficiently interesting ones to choose from.
I have used these same videos on CRMI(Line) workshops, and I can say the same - generally people recognize dangerous behaviour when they can see it from a detached position.
Obviously these videos are scripted, so slightly artificial, but equally, real simulator recordings could be used if you had a database of sufficiently interesting ones to choose from.
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No doubt , interactions between Capt and FO have created such distractions in the cockpit that have led to accidents. In many cases had there only been one hypothetical pilot, these issues removed, the accident would have been averted.
While not a gauge or to debate single vs crew safety issues, I am curious if CRM has created more training, more vague goal posts for pilots to attain, when the emphasis should be on solid pilot ability to accurately point out a problem and take corrective action. CRM seems to strive for a rather well constructed, psychologicaly manipulated, well thought out, emotionaly sensitive statement to the effect 'Hey capt, we are going to crash, but I want you to know, I don't want to hurt your feelings, or make you feel any less confident in your pilot skills, nor do I want you to feel that I am questioning you experience, or authority...but in ten seconds we will all be dead...so just to be clear, please don't take this wrong....."
If the goal is to hire pilots that can fly a plane and recognize problems in the furtherance of avoiding accidents...does hiring based on interpersonal skills and proper trained attitude substitute the training and experience to simply know what to do, rather then train to 'negotiate what to do'
I would think the trend to hire 600 hr pilots at some airlines that attitude (Attitude is code name for = do we like your or not) is taking prececidence over ability in hiring decisions. I am not convinced that attitude will save a plane load of passengers as a substitute for years training, ability, judgement and experience.
While not a gauge or to debate single vs crew safety issues, I am curious if CRM has created more training, more vague goal posts for pilots to attain, when the emphasis should be on solid pilot ability to accurately point out a problem and take corrective action. CRM seems to strive for a rather well constructed, psychologicaly manipulated, well thought out, emotionaly sensitive statement to the effect 'Hey capt, we are going to crash, but I want you to know, I don't want to hurt your feelings, or make you feel any less confident in your pilot skills, nor do I want you to feel that I am questioning you experience, or authority...but in ten seconds we will all be dead...so just to be clear, please don't take this wrong....."
If the goal is to hire pilots that can fly a plane and recognize problems in the furtherance of avoiding accidents...does hiring based on interpersonal skills and proper trained attitude substitute the training and experience to simply know what to do, rather then train to 'negotiate what to do'
I would think the trend to hire 600 hr pilots at some airlines that attitude (Attitude is code name for = do we like your or not) is taking prececidence over ability in hiring decisions. I am not convinced that attitude will save a plane load of passengers as a substitute for years training, ability, judgement and experience.
Last edited by Angels 60; 23rd May 2008 at 17:21.
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I think you can over-emphasive the touchy-feely, "dont hurt my feelings" aspect of this. I think realistically 99% of us approach it in a fairly practical way. Hopefully the operators we work for will have produced an SOP to help this. For example, a guide on how to intervene if there is a deviation from the correct flight path, graduating from the "Check Height" call, through to the "I have control" call.
There are huge variations in training standards, company and national cultures worldwide. As a simulator instructor, I have seen plenty of people who will either sit there fat, dumb and happy, watching the other pilot (or even watching themselves) crash the aircraft without being able to make any sort of decision, or they reach across the cockpit the second a malfunction occurs and switch off ,for example, the one good engine without any consultation. This is what we are trying to avoid with CRM. As long as we have crew who are reasonably assertive, and will speak to each other and work out some sort of solution to a problem, believe me we are 95% of the way there.
There are huge variations in training standards, company and national cultures worldwide. As a simulator instructor, I have seen plenty of people who will either sit there fat, dumb and happy, watching the other pilot (or even watching themselves) crash the aircraft without being able to make any sort of decision, or they reach across the cockpit the second a malfunction occurs and switch off ,for example, the one good engine without any consultation. This is what we are trying to avoid with CRM. As long as we have crew who are reasonably assertive, and will speak to each other and work out some sort of solution to a problem, believe me we are 95% of the way there.
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As a sim instructor do you think it's wise to hire low time guys that 'get along and go along' ...fit culture and all that..or just get experienced guys that can fly?
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I guess all high-time guys started somewhere as low-time guys. You just have to make sure you can mould them into pilots who will fit into the company culture, and that you pay close attention as to who is crewed up with the new guys to ensure that the right lessons are passed on.
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Yeah, hopefully a "safety culture". If people are coming from a miltary background, or flying as a hobby, or from teaching at a club, the way you operate in the commercial world may need a very different mindset. The way you get that is from the example set by your colleagues.
While not a gauge or to debate single vs crew safety issues, I am curious if CRM has created more training, more vague goal posts for pilots to attain, when the emphasis should be on solid pilot ability to accurately point out a problem and take corrective action. CRM seems to strive for a rather well constructed, psychologicaly manipulated, well thought out, emotionaly sensitive statement to the effect 'Hey capt, we are going to crash, but I want you to know, I don't want to hurt your feelings, or make you feel any less confident in your pilot skills, nor do I want you to feel that I am questioning you experience, or authority...but in ten seconds we will all be dead...so just to be clear, please don't take this wrong....."
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I am continually amazed at how often we keep hearing this. If you think CRM is rubbish, the chances are that you dont get it, because it is a no-brainer. The fact that you speak about "psycho-babble" probably explains why you dont get it - there are a lot of bad CRM trainers and facilitators out there, who give you the psychobabble, instead of the practical stuff which will save your skin. The only way round that is for operators to do some proper quality-control on CRM training, instead of ticking a box.
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Colleague attended a CRM course at start up airline in Hong Kong a year ago. Besides seemingly endless power point pictures, one of the exercises designed to instill principles of CRM included the group being blind-folded then all shuffled around in a circle with hands on the shoulders of the bloke or blokee in front of you, then reverse the conga line then try to identify the person who was behind you after blind folds removed. The participants of this crazy farce had no idea what it was all about but the facilitators certainly knew... And what the hell that had to do with CRM is your guess. But the boxes were ticked and that's the main thing.
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Dear Picklepilot
Yes I do think two 10000hr piots need to attend. CRM has progresed well passed teaching people to be nice to each other. My last CRM course dealt with Risk management and also fatigue management for long haul pilots. Two pilots of the same experience could be on ef the most dangerous situation levels due to potentialy flat authority gradient. CRM is for every level of pilot. I don't think it should be assesed to back to my original post.
DH
Yes I do think two 10000hr piots need to attend. CRM has progresed well passed teaching people to be nice to each other. My last CRM course dealt with Risk management and also fatigue management for long haul pilots. Two pilots of the same experience could be on ef the most dangerous situation levels due to potentialy flat authority gradient. CRM is for every level of pilot. I don't think it should be assesed to back to my original post.
DH