What Does "Challenge and Response" Mean
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A37575 said
I think you misunderstand. The first rule is always to FLY THE AIRPLANE. There are myriad examples where the crew jumped on the problem and not only did not solve it in their rush, the compounded the problem.
I am not familiar with any incident or accident where a fire warning resulted in the wing burning off but I am familiar with a number of incidents where crews jumped on the wrong problem.
So, just to clarify positions.. do you or your company require you to immediately begin shutting down an engine the moment the fire light illuminates on takeoff? Do you climb to obstacle clearance altitude or a standard altitude and clean up (flaps up etc) before beginning the checklist? Do you have memory actions or have you/has your company changed to checklist items for eng fire/failure?
FWIW, at many US carriers, if you begin the fire checklist before cleaning up, it may result in a checkride failure and require retraining.
A few years ago, there was a report with the title PSM/ICR which stood for Propulsion System Malfunction/Improper Crew Response and it detailed how crews got themselves in trouble even with simple PSMs.
I, nor anyone else, is suggesting complacency is acceptable but you seem to advocate immediate action over a timely response. I do not agree and I doubt you can find events (crashes due to burned through hyd/fuel/etc) which support your position.
I could be wrong and stand ready to learn...
If the aircraft is already under control from start of take off run and climb away then any complacent relaxed delay in taking action to extinguish an engine fire warning is nothing less than sheer recklessness.
I am not familiar with any incident or accident where a fire warning resulted in the wing burning off but I am familiar with a number of incidents where crews jumped on the wrong problem.
So, just to clarify positions.. do you or your company require you to immediately begin shutting down an engine the moment the fire light illuminates on takeoff? Do you climb to obstacle clearance altitude or a standard altitude and clean up (flaps up etc) before beginning the checklist? Do you have memory actions or have you/has your company changed to checklist items for eng fire/failure?
FWIW, at many US carriers, if you begin the fire checklist before cleaning up, it may result in a checkride failure and require retraining.
A few years ago, there was a report with the title PSM/ICR which stood for Propulsion System Malfunction/Improper Crew Response and it detailed how crews got themselves in trouble even with simple PSMs.
I, nor anyone else, is suggesting complacency is acceptable but you seem to advocate immediate action over a timely response. I do not agree and I doubt you can find events (crashes due to burned through hyd/fuel/etc) which support your position.
I could be wrong and stand ready to learn...
In a previous job (4-eng turboprop), each pilot had an “after start scan/flow” done from memory, (mostly Left seat pilot actions, a few done by necessity from the RH seat, but importantly, rigidly specified as to who’s duty each item was). This was followed by an “After–start check” done as challenge and response. RP read the check aloud, LP made the responses for items he had actioned in the flow, RP responded to his own “challenge” if it was an item he had set. I found this a very good system. However…….
Seemed to work well, until the day we were distracted by external interruption during the checks, and somehow, despite calling “ Flaps – set and indicating”, they in fact were at zero. Fortunately, we survived the subsequent stick shaker after take-off and got airborne OK (yes – MOR was submitted). We are both sure that we did not miss the item in the challenge and response, but that we read the challenge and called the response without either of us checking it had been done.
After that, I modified my “response” slightly, and think that it has helped me to make sure that what I say is what is actually there.
Where the checklist might just say “Start select…………………OFF/Light out” , I would now respond to RP’s call of “Start select”, with “………. IS OFF/ Light IS out” . As I say the word “IS” it prompts me to make sure that I am actually checking the item as I say the words, and not just saying what should be set. A minor change, but it works for me……… (so far !!)
With reference to fire after take-off, on our aircraft (as I understand is fairly SOP in fixed-wing) the initial action was to fly the aircraft and do nothing about the fire until above a certain height (500’ in our case) (the only action below 500 was to feather a failed engine that had not autofeathered).
However, in both types of large helicopter I have operated, the standard briefing is “no engine to be shut down below 500’ except in case of fire” in which case the procedure is to immediately start the fire drill. Considering that the Lee-on-Solent S61 went from engine fire warning to starting to lose all hydraulic control as the pipes burned through just as they put it on the ground, all in less than 90 seconds, and subsequently burned to the ground, I think there are arguments for both ways of doing things…………
Seemed to work well, until the day we were distracted by external interruption during the checks, and somehow, despite calling “ Flaps – set and indicating”, they in fact were at zero. Fortunately, we survived the subsequent stick shaker after take-off and got airborne OK (yes – MOR was submitted). We are both sure that we did not miss the item in the challenge and response, but that we read the challenge and called the response without either of us checking it had been done.
After that, I modified my “response” slightly, and think that it has helped me to make sure that what I say is what is actually there.
Where the checklist might just say “Start select…………………OFF/Light out” , I would now respond to RP’s call of “Start select”, with “………. IS OFF/ Light IS out” . As I say the word “IS” it prompts me to make sure that I am actually checking the item as I say the words, and not just saying what should be set. A minor change, but it works for me……… (so far !!)
With reference to fire after take-off, on our aircraft (as I understand is fairly SOP in fixed-wing) the initial action was to fly the aircraft and do nothing about the fire until above a certain height (500’ in our case) (the only action below 500 was to feather a failed engine that had not autofeathered).
However, in both types of large helicopter I have operated, the standard briefing is “no engine to be shut down below 500’ except in case of fire” in which case the procedure is to immediately start the fire drill. Considering that the Lee-on-Solent S61 went from engine fire warning to starting to lose all hydraulic control as the pipes burned through just as they put it on the ground, all in less than 90 seconds, and subsequently burned to the ground, I think there are arguments for both ways of doing things…………
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You only need one guy to read a checklist and touch/verify what he's doing..
Challenge and response is really at it's core, about making sure something is getting done, brought to someone's attention and the item/thing is solved/acted upon, etc....by two people.
'Fl180, Altimeter check'
'Set to 30.12'
And both people watch it being set the correct setting.
That's the kind of redundancy that should happen in a crew cockpit...if one guy just reads the check list, never really looks up, or checks that the other is actually doing the item and correctly...you might as well be a single pilot op, it's just busy work.
Challenge and response is really at it's core, about making sure something is getting done, brought to someone's attention and the item/thing is solved/acted upon, etc....by two people.
'Fl180, Altimeter check'
'Set to 30.12'
And both people watch it being set the correct setting.
That's the kind of redundancy that should happen in a crew cockpit...if one guy just reads the check list, never really looks up, or checks that the other is actually doing the item and correctly...you might as well be a single pilot op, it's just busy work.
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During a recent 737 simulator recurrency session, the F/O was asked to conduct the whole start up procedure from dark cockpit to engines running all by himself without another crew member to prompt or help in any way. Without the use of a checklist he was completely out of his depth. It proved that he used checklists as a crutch for his lack of knowledge. He already had over 500 hours on type.. Areas of responsibility are fine until you are asked to know what is the other fellows area of responsibility as well.
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In response to an earlier (much earlier!) comment regarding normal checklist responses, it was suggested that some c/l responses are "as required", meaning the specific response was variable, depending on the situation.
That's fine, though I haven't seen one in a checklist for quite some time.....my response to that response is that you never actually responded with "as required", you ALWAYS responded with the specific setting that was relevant at that time.
i.e. Engine Anti-Ice.....As required //was always responded to with On or Off!
In the back section of the QRH (for Boeings) there is a section that clearly lays out the only acceptable way to run any of the checklists within, be they Normal or Non-Normal.
That's fine, though I haven't seen one in a checklist for quite some time.....my response to that response is that you never actually responded with "as required", you ALWAYS responded with the specific setting that was relevant at that time.
i.e. Engine Anti-Ice.....As required //was always responded to with On or Off!
In the back section of the QRH (for Boeings) there is a section that clearly lays out the only acceptable way to run any of the checklists within, be they Normal or Non-Normal.
