Pilot requiring marshaller but uses own instinct!!
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Pilot requiring marshaller but uses own instinct!!
If a pilot is told by ATC 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller' then decides to park himself without a marshaller, due to the fact he's not there instantly when needed...... Is this 'disobeying' ATCs instructions?? Is it punishable??
Just a thought, as this happens regularly with me...... Though if any other ATC instructions were 'dismissed' there would be hell to pay surely?????
If a pilot reads back 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller', but then decides to ignore that then surely there 'should' be some kind of consequence??????
Just a thought... as to me, ATC are there for a reason and in control of ground movements, as well as air..... Someone in control is good, not doing your own thing through frustration!!
Just a thought, as this happens regularly with me...... Though if any other ATC instructions were 'dismissed' there would be hell to pay surely?????
If a pilot reads back 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller', but then decides to ignore that then surely there 'should' be some kind of consequence??????
Just a thought... as to me, ATC are there for a reason and in control of ground movements, as well as air..... Someone in control is good, not doing your own thing through frustration!!
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Agree with I-FORD. Tell me where you want the aircraft and I'l put it there. I don't need someone to signal to me when and where to turn. Now, having said that there are occasions in tight parking slots where a pair of eyes out front and to the side is invaluable - or where the airport has a requirement to put you in a specific spot - then sure, go with the marshaller. But otherwise, as I said, tell me where you want the aircraft and I'll put it there.
As for the original point, ATC can say to 'park with the marshaller'. Quite what ATC involvement is thereafter is surely finished. Isn't it then an airport authority task (probably their requirement to use the marshaller anyway) unless the airport authority is also ATC.
The 'Follow Me' routines at Manchester a few months ago and parking on some of the remotes in broad daylight are cases in point of job creation (and keeping a desk-bound 'safety' legislator in work).
As for the original point, ATC can say to 'park with the marshaller'. Quite what ATC involvement is thereafter is surely finished. Isn't it then an airport authority task (probably their requirement to use the marshaller anyway) unless the airport authority is also ATC.
The 'Follow Me' routines at Manchester a few months ago and parking on some of the remotes in broad daylight are cases in point of job creation (and keeping a desk-bound 'safety' legislator in work).
I suggest the short answer to Aloon's first question is Yes. If a pilot ignores any ATC parking instruction, then MOR action may be appropriate.
However, if this is a regular problem, then I also suggest that the following may need to be examined:-
i) Are the parking procedures clearly defined in the Aerodrome Manual and AIP?
ii) Are pending arrivals notified to the marshallers in sufficient time for them to be on stand ahead of an aircraft?
iii) Is the number of marshallers sufficient to handle the routine flow of traffic?
iv) Are the marshallers sufficiently well trained and motivated to carry out their tasks efficiently?
However, if this is a regular problem, then I also suggest that the following may need to be examined:-
i) Are the parking procedures clearly defined in the Aerodrome Manual and AIP?
ii) Are pending arrivals notified to the marshallers in sufficient time for them to be on stand ahead of an aircraft?
iii) Is the number of marshallers sufficient to handle the routine flow of traffic?
iv) Are the marshallers sufficiently well trained and motivated to carry out their tasks efficiently?
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From my experience, marshalling quality varies widely, and that includes at UK airports. I often don't exactly follow the marshallers instructions as I can see what he is trying to do and where he is trying to position us, but his signals to me aren't going to achieve it! The classic is turning us too early to get us onto the parking centre-line. It would become tiresome to follow exactly to prove to him that his marshalling is not going to work. Also, we all started somewhere and need to gain experience to become proficient, but the ship is the Captain's responsibility ultimately. Perhaps a quiet word after engine shutdown would be more appropriate.
PP
PP
Aloon,
Call the tower on the telephone and ask them what they mean/want by those instructions.
What does your company ops manual say about parking with/without marshallers ?
The most dangerous time to operate an airplane is from the time the MLG touches the ground until the MLG leaves the ground again.
Call the tower on the telephone and ask them what they mean/want by those instructions.
What does your company ops manual say about parking with/without marshallers ?
The most dangerous time to operate an airplane is from the time the MLG touches the ground until the MLG leaves the ground again.
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Thank you all for the replies.... I think some might be missing the point!!!!
It's not about marshaller capability or requirement!!
Totally agreed.. A Marshaller is an 'aid' to parking.
My question is though about not adhering to ATC or GROUND instructions and self parking, despite being given instructions to do otherwise.
A marshaller doesn't just park an a/c, but is required to check the stand is clear of equipment and FOD before an a/c can be parked. Ok, a pilot can park himself but can't check the stand beforehand.... Stands are full of obstructions and need to be checked!! So what if a marshaller is only there to check the stand and you ignore his instructions.. It's an important job! Stands need to be checked!!
The main question being though.... NOT adhering to instructions given by ATC or GROUND... Self park with an incident... Is the pilot to blame??? Surely he/she must be???
'spekesoftly' Your reply directly identifies the point I'm trying to make!! Cheers for that!!!!
In response....
i) Yes
ii) Not always!!
iii) Not always!!
iv) More often than not.. YES
All depends on time of flights!! Delays throw a spanner in the works generally...
That's what I see at my aerodrome!!!
So disobeying instructions given??? Back to the point.... Be it 'only parking'... Perhaps the biggest hazard in your journey???
It's not about marshaller capability or requirement!!
Yes and that someone is the pilot
My question is though about not adhering to ATC or GROUND instructions and self parking, despite being given instructions to do otherwise.
A marshaller doesn't just park an a/c, but is required to check the stand is clear of equipment and FOD before an a/c can be parked. Ok, a pilot can park himself but can't check the stand beforehand.... Stands are full of obstructions and need to be checked!! So what if a marshaller is only there to check the stand and you ignore his instructions.. It's an important job! Stands need to be checked!!
The main question being though.... NOT adhering to instructions given by ATC or GROUND... Self park with an incident... Is the pilot to blame??? Surely he/she must be???
'spekesoftly' Your reply directly identifies the point I'm trying to make!! Cheers for that!!!!
In response....
i) Yes
ii) Not always!!
iii) Not always!!
iv) More often than not.. YES
All depends on time of flights!! Delays throw a spanner in the works generally...
That's what I see at my aerodrome!!!
So disobeying instructions given??? Back to the point.... Be it 'only parking'... Perhaps the biggest hazard in your journey???
[QUOTE=Aloon]Thank you all for the replies.... I think some might be missing the point!!!!
It's not about marshaller capability or requirement!!
My question is though about not adhering to ATC or GROUND instructions and self parking, despite being given instructions to do otherwise.
The main question being though.... NOT adhering to instructions given by ATC or GROUND... Self park with an incident... Is the pilot to blame???
[QUOTE]
OK, I'll take a shot at this: No, you'd not be in hot water with ATC in a legal sense. They have much bigger fish to fry than whether or not some guy waited for a marshaller...or did not.
If you smack something parking without guidance when you could've waited a bit and done it in compliance with your ops manual, the Chief Pilot at your company may invite you to a "rug dance". Is the pilot to blame ? You bet. The only question is who gets to put his danglers on the tree stump...government or Chief Pilot. I'd opt for the Chief Pilot.
Would the convenience of getting to the gate a few minutes earlier be worth the price you paid ?
It's not about marshaller capability or requirement!!
My question is though about not adhering to ATC or GROUND instructions and self parking, despite being given instructions to do otherwise.
The main question being though.... NOT adhering to instructions given by ATC or GROUND... Self park with an incident... Is the pilot to blame???
[QUOTE]
OK, I'll take a shot at this: No, you'd not be in hot water with ATC in a legal sense. They have much bigger fish to fry than whether or not some guy waited for a marshaller...or did not.
If you smack something parking without guidance when you could've waited a bit and done it in compliance with your ops manual, the Chief Pilot at your company may invite you to a "rug dance". Is the pilot to blame ? You bet. The only question is who gets to put his danglers on the tree stump...government or Chief Pilot. I'd opt for the Chief Pilot.
Would the convenience of getting to the gate a few minutes earlier be worth the price you paid ?
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Just don't try taxying to the gate at either Narita or Osaka without waiting for and obeying the marshaller!
And don't forget to acknowledge his polite bow when marshalling is complete!
And don't forget to acknowledge his polite bow when marshalling is complete!
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There was a CAA Court case...
several years ago, if my memory is correct.
Up north, perhaps 15 years ago.
Pliot ignored marshaller, and was done for disobeying a lawful ATC instruction.
Can anyone provide the details......
Bumz
Up north, perhaps 15 years ago.
Pliot ignored marshaller, and was done for disobeying a lawful ATC instruction.
Can anyone provide the details......
Bumz
The thing that has always irritated the hell out of me are marshallers who set off backwards on a cross-country walk/run every time you get anywhere near them.
If you are a marshaller then please, please, pretty please stand just in front of where you want me to park and I'll figure out how to help you but if you set off backwards at a rate of knots every time I think we have arrived then it is all going to get messy!
If you are a marshaller then please, please, pretty please stand just in front of where you want me to park and I'll figure out how to help you but if you set off backwards at a rate of knots every time I think we have arrived then it is all going to get messy!
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Aloon.... It sounds like you might be a tad P**sed with a captain who did not wait for marshalling. Not that this is right or wrong but full details of the situation allow for better responses.....
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Kent BeTrue
I DON'T Marshall.....
It's a question, about ATC / or ground giving instructions, and them not being adheared to!!!
'some' pilots seem to ignore this instruction.
WHY???
Simple as!!!
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I-FORD
So if the pilot was in control, why were a/c damaged??? A whole new thread I know!!!!
Believe you me, marshalers also get the brunt of this!!!!
It can be hard to communicate and act accordingly due to time of observing marshalers instructions and acting upon them.. Rate of turn is also a hard one to judge!!
But again.. That's not the question in hand....
'spekesoftly' has actually followed the question with an appropriate answer!!! Cheers!!!
Yes and that someone is the pilot.
In my airline there have been two occasions in which, following wrong signals from marshalers, airplanes have been damaged.
Try to imagine who has been held responsible for the mishaps.
Try to imagine who has been held responsible for the mishaps.
Believe you me, marshalers also get the brunt of this!!!!
It can be hard to communicate and act accordingly due to time of observing marshalers instructions and acting upon them.. Rate of turn is also a hard one to judge!!
But again.. That's not the question in hand....
'spekesoftly' has actually followed the question with an appropriate answer!!! Cheers!!!
but if you set off backwards at a rate of knots
But to be serious, I wonder if many pilots have ever had a go at marshalling?
I'm not a marshaller, but many years ago, whilst under pilot training, I did, and it was quite an eye-opener!
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So say you taxied into the Jetty (anyone remember SG at Bham in the MD80!) and you hadnt waited for the marshaller or say you ran over one of those guys with the chocks who thinks its clever to see how close you can get the noswheel to his foot and you hadnt waited for the marshaller how would you defend yourself at the industrial tribunal or the negligence action when the companies solicitor says," you disobeyed an ATC instruction which you acknowledged."
In a case like that pension preservation dictates you tell ATC, " the marshallers not here we will go on without him" and put the ball back in ATC's court.
I had the reverse action at Edinburgh a few years ago. I was told by ATC to park on stand 3 (or somewhere close to three cant remeber) and use the stop short line. when i got to the turn I couldnt be sure that the Jetty wasnt infringing the stop short line so i told ATC i was refusing to taxy on till they sent a marshaller. When the marshaller eventually came he was quite upset about it and took my ID number and reported me to the BAA saying that the company would be billed by BAA for use of a marshalI. i just laughed at him and didnt take any notice of him but I got a written apolgy from the ramp manager and the marshaller got his knucles rapped.
there is two different issues here one is blatantly disobeying at ATC instruction and the other is exercising you right as the commander to protect the aircraft and its occupants. It could be difficult to argue that taxying on without the marsaller after ATC had told you to wait for him was achieving the latter.
In a case like that pension preservation dictates you tell ATC, " the marshallers not here we will go on without him" and put the ball back in ATC's court.
I had the reverse action at Edinburgh a few years ago. I was told by ATC to park on stand 3 (or somewhere close to three cant remeber) and use the stop short line. when i got to the turn I couldnt be sure that the Jetty wasnt infringing the stop short line so i told ATC i was refusing to taxy on till they sent a marshaller. When the marshaller eventually came he was quite upset about it and took my ID number and reported me to the BAA saying that the company would be billed by BAA for use of a marshalI. i just laughed at him and didnt take any notice of him but I got a written apolgy from the ramp manager and the marshaller got his knucles rapped.
there is two different issues here one is blatantly disobeying at ATC instruction and the other is exercising you right as the commander to protect the aircraft and its occupants. It could be difficult to argue that taxying on without the marsaller after ATC had told you to wait for him was achieving the latter.
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Aloon
What is the urgency that requires you (or any pilot for that matter) to taxi on stand ignoring ATC. As in any situation if you are not clear about or need further information, how about asking?
Just a slight thread drift - At an European station an A330 was about to taxi onto stand, but as there was no stand guidance on, the pilot waited. An airline employee saw the situation and set the guidance system up. The aircraft then taxied on to the stand, and promptly hit a jetty! The employee had set the guidance up for a B777! The employee was sacked. The pilot? I do not know.
What is the urgency that requires you (or any pilot for that matter) to taxi on stand ignoring ATC. As in any situation if you are not clear about or need further information, how about asking?
Just a slight thread drift - At an European station an A330 was about to taxi onto stand, but as there was no stand guidance on, the pilot waited. An airline employee saw the situation and set the guidance system up. The aircraft then taxied on to the stand, and promptly hit a jetty! The employee had set the guidance up for a B777! The employee was sacked. The pilot? I do not know.
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Originally Posted by Aloon
If a pilot is told by ATC 'parking stand 'x' with a marshaller' then decides to park himself without a marshaller, due to the fact he's not there instantly when needed...... Is this 'disobeying' ATCs instructions??
Originally Posted by Spitoon
It is likely that ATC won't be be particularly concerned in what a pilot does when he or she gets on to the apron.
Taking an example - Pilot of an inbound PA34 is told: "After the B737 pushing from stand 22, park with the marshaller on stand 24". However, PA34 pilot decides to make his own arrangements, forcing the B737 to make an emergency stop. Bitter complaint from the 737 Captain ensues, and ATC file a 1261.
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keel beam
Aloon
What is the urgency that requires you (or any pilot for that matter) to taxi on stand ignoring ATC
What is the urgency that requires you (or any pilot for that matter) to taxi on stand ignoring ATC
As in any situation if you are not clear about or need further information, how about asking?
Spitoon...
Aloon, this is a UK answer. In the UK such an instruction is not an ATC instruction but is probably, in effect, 'a message passed on behalf of the airport authority'. This is a reflection of the responsibilities of ATC on aprons in the UK - it is different elsewhere.
ATC, GROUND, RADAR, and CONTROL all ' pass on ' information from others at some point. Someone else did the weather.. Someone else did the flightplan.. Someone else did the slot time!!!
Not sure that your 'UK answer' would hold up in court!!!!
I'm no expert, but I think you're WAY off the mark. Cheers anyway!!
So back to the original question!!...
Thanks for all the replies, a mixed bag of sorts!!
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I think it truly amazing that we are actually allowed to fly the damn things. Every man and his dog appears to want to mess about with us. Loaders, marshallers, tug drivers - every one wants to have a go. Why? Because some office-bound a
e has decreed so (normally invoking the god of charging airlines - Safety) and in return for said "service", our companies get an invoice. I'm as keen as the next man to have extra eyes when I'm parking but rarely is said person looking at my extremities so to speak, just the nosewheel and the yellow line.
e has decreed so (normally invoking the god of charging airlines - Safety) and in return for said "service", our companies get an invoice. I'm as keen as the next man to have extra eyes when I'm parking but rarely is said person looking at my extremities so to speak, just the nosewheel and the yellow line.