Captains

[Pink_Lady]

Hi all,

Can someone please put my mind of rest on this matter. When FO's are promoted they occasionally change the aircraft they fly (i.e. RHS-LHS 747-737) By being a captian you get certain ""privilages"" so a "brand-new" captain is allowed to do a fully Cross wind landing, even though he mite have 500hrs on type (but has 5500hrs total) But the FO hes flying with has always flown the 737 and has 2000hrs on type. Surely the FO has more experience on the machine, and knows exactly how it handles etc, but hes only allowed to do 2/3 crosswinds landings!!

Is this stupid, or am i being stupid???


Pinky


ps. can we not turn this into a grammar bashing, as i realise its dreadful!!!
Thanks

[GlueBall]

Irrespective of how few hours a captain may have in a specific airplane, the captain still has more "total" hours, and altogether more "total" airplane handling experience than a copilot who may have more hours on a specific airplane. For example: I never sat in the right seat of a 74.

[Pink_Lady]

Thanks for your reply, but even though he has more experience doesnt mean he can fly the plane better or safer, not every plane flies the same or has the same characteristics, (unless ur an airbus driver ) But a change from a Boeing to an Airbus, is a heafty change totally different!?

Pink

[Gary Lager]

If an aircraft is mishandled (for example, in strong crosswinds) when the Captain is PF, it's his responsibility.

If an aircraft is mishandled (for example, in strong crosswinds) when the FO is PF, it's still the Captain's responsibility.

I would hardly describe the opportunity to land in AFM certified max crosswind as a 'privilege' of command!

Then again, some FOs take it personally when they are denied the opportunity to test the nerves of the pilot-in-command in such circumstances. I am grateful that my company protects me from having to get involved in such a potentially awkward conversation!

When it's one's own name on the tech log, then one can decide whether or not to take it to the AFM limits.

Do remember that "the superior pilot usues superior judgement to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skill" - Captains are under no obligation to operate in situations which they believe carry excessive risk, even if they do not exceed AFM limitations; that aspect of captaincy, like so many others, is developed through overall experience in airmanship and decision-making regardless of types flown.

But a change from a Boeing to an Airbus, is a heafty change totally different!?

To answer your question: no, it's not a 'hefty change' or 'totally different' - once the technical details of the aircraft type are understood, it's still just a swept-wing jet aeroplane (i.e. not a helicopter), the basics are still valid.

Rodthesod, thanks for your valuable contribution.

[BOAC]

..and, Pink Lady, as GL says, there are some occasions when a Captain may not even allow a P2 landing in 2/3 of the crosswind limit. Some of the 'experience' you gain on the way to command enables the making of such decisions. 'Experience' is more than just time on a type.

[Pink_Lady]

Thanks Guys for your help in answering my question


But most of all id like to make a extra big thank-you to rodthesod.


Thanks agen

Pink

[Oh that's super!]

It's funny how this section is called "Safety CFM and QA" and this is where lots of verbal abuse occur. Are you all practising for the cockpit?



.. as it must be, mod involvement is after the event. However, we won't tolerate excessive rudeness, etc., in this Forum. Also, just in case we miss something which needs to be knocked on the head, please have no reticence in sending a PM to advise and alert ...

Back to topic, just to add that it's not just the time on type that counts for captains - it's the overall experience and their general skills. Being a captain isn't just about flying skills, either, though. They don't become captains for no reason - they become one because it is felt that they can handle the aircraft as well as its management.

[rodthesod]

I really don't mind being called any name, offensive or otherwise, but the use of such verbal abuse just confirms my original assessment of the questioner.
I merely answered the 'actual' question posed rather than enter into a debate on crosswind landings. I have over 20 years experience as a TRE on various multi-engine types (turbo-prop, jet, high wing, low-wing, swept back and straight) and could have made CRM and safety contributions. For example, in addition to comments previously raised, some types do not have NWS tillers for the RHS occupant; this raises a significant area of concern when determining cockpit procedures. However, the bottom line is the Company SOP so that, as GL points out, Captains do not have to endure the wailing of disgruntled FOs.
My assessment (which may be wrong) was that P_L is probably the girlfriend/wife/daughter/sister of such a peeved pilot.
If I'm wrong and she has aspirations to become a pilot, I would suggest:

• a change of attitude unless she wants to spend a very long time in the RHS
• work on her self-confessed 'dreadful' grammar before inflicting it upon aviation management by way of CV
• work on the Lady side of her 'handle' - pink she may be, lady she is not

[AerocatS2A]

Why didn't you make that your first post then? In your first post you were a rude jerk who added nothing to the discussion, in your second you were informative and (mostly) polite. Just because someone has poor grammar and may ask a question poorly, doesn't mean it is not a valid question.

Also, it might help to remember that it is not just the original poster reading your input, there may be others reading the thread who would gain knowledge if people like you would take the time to answer the question properly rather than throwing out an insult.

[/soapbox]

[Blighty Pilot]

Originally Posted by rodthesod

It's not stupid, you are being stupid and you really should do something about your grammar.

Well as a so called Type Rating Examiner of 20 years I would have thought you may have learnt to develop your interpersonal skills by now!!!!!

I hardly think that calling someone stupid is an accepted way of answering peoples questions. If this is the way you de-brief people in simulator sessions I hardly think you are the right person for the job.

Everyone has to start in the industry somewhere and yes we all have questions, some of which people may regard as silly, at some points in our careers. But until these questions are answered how are people going to learn and develop their understanding of what the industry is all about.

P_L I urge you not to be put off in asking questions by a few bitter and twisted people that seem to feature regularly on this website.

[Blighty Pilot]

I think that Pink Lady is fully aware of spelling and grammer hense why she mentioned it!!! It could be on the other hand a type of short hand as many of us (the younger generation ) use in txt msgs (text messages).
C = see

U = You

Nxt = Next

T....... No no I won't go there (only joking folks!!)
Da = The
Hm = Home
Wk = Week
Wrk = Work
brb = Be Right Back
b4 = Before
Mite = Might
Nte = Night
L8r = Later
Gr8 = Great
TTFN = Ta Ta For Now
etc etc etc blah blah blah!!

[rodthesod]

Ok. All points and criticisms taken and accepted. I hereby unreservedly apologise to the young lady and anyone else I may have offended. Sorry.

Back on thread, although I agree with Mike Jenvey about FO experience, you can also argue that since Max Demonstrated Limiting crosswinds are usually not an everyday occurrence, line captains need the practice too. If there is a realistic Flt Sim for type, maybe that's a good place for RHS pilots to get extra practice. I do think it's a bit too much to expect a normal line pilot to recover from a badly executed attempt in the real world.

Best regards to All,

rts

[Pink_Lady]

Hello all,

From asking a question on LHS-RHS and 747-737 the debate has changed to how good my grammar is. Oh I love Pprune.

When you put that mind of yours to it you can actually come out with TWO informative grammatically correct answers. Which if you were not trying to be so "funny" you could of posted it in the first place. If you had looked at the bottom of my post you will have seen that I said about my grammar being dreadful, you really did not need to reiterate it!!

For my other grammar mistakes like blightypilot has said, I do make keyboard short cuts which I do apoligise for. You will be glad to know that when I write with the old fashion parchment and feather i do write full English, with spaces, Capital letters, and even paragraphs so you do not need to worry about me confusing management with my CV.

Also comments

work on the Lady side of her 'handle' - pink she may be, lady she is not

Slightly sexist i do believe. Are you saying that ladies have to 'handle' themselves in a specific way, what century are you from? Is my job to bring up the children and do the house cleaning? THINK AGAIN.

Mike: I am British: My dads from Yorkshire and my mother is from Lancashire. I do realise i should of used a spell checker, but with time against me on the old revision/Exams, i dd skip over that!!!

Thanks again to all of you for your informative replies to the initial questions.

Pinks

[Don Coyote]

The question was: " Is this stupid, or am i being stupid???". Rodthesod did give an answer to the actual question!

It is possible for the FO to have more total experience and also more experience on the given aircraft type but for some reason has not been promoted to captain with a given company, so in theory he would be better qualified to fly the aircraft to the given limits. That said it is the captain who carries the can so he gets to do it.

[arem]

My dads from Yorkshire and my mother is from Lancashire


Ah, that explains all! :

[Pink_Lady]

Mike tut tut,

It's very easy to use a spelling chequer

AND YOU HAVE NOT!!!!! hahaha.
It's very easy to use a spelling checker

come on!!!!!

Can i ask were u one of those annoying people (who picked up on everything that people did wrong?) at school by any chance?? (im just joking)

My last post has been altered, but i did apoligise to RODTHESOD.

Pink

[BOAC]

My last post has been altered

- not just that one, either. You have been lucky so far. PM on its way.

For all - IF you select any editor in your options panel OTHER than the 'basic' there is a spell chequer/checker in the top right of the message box with 'abc' and a tick. All free and for nothing

[Hawk]

Pink_Lady, thank you for your thread. This forum is generally used by aviation crew to discuss common CRM and Safety issues and I believe the members offered you a thorough explanation to your query, I'm not sure why you continued to argue. All members of PPRuNe are welcome to post questions but we ask that if you are not an aviation professional you at least respect those on here who are and have taken the time to assist.

I suspect that this thread no longer serves any useful purpose, but I will keep it open a little bit longer and see if it turns around.

I am sorry your thread degenerated into a spelling and grammar contest, lets cut the personal attacks and get back on track.
Thankyou
H.

[skywerd]

Pink Lady:
I am now captain of the aircraft on which I fly. I had an extensive background in GA, having spent 10 years in GA, then leaving aviation altogether for 10 years. When I returned, through a series of exceptional circumstances, I promoted rapidly.
1. As a 40-something FO, I occasionally observed outrageous ineptitude from those who occupied the left seat. This includes the young dude who commanded us through a line of Level 5s 50 miles from base. He is still mad at me for speaking up after we got back in the crewroom.
2. As a 40-something captain, some of my abilities are not what they used to be. In particular, my short-term memory is not what it used to be. Every week I fly with people who are sharper than me on a variety of different points. This can be intimidating at times, but then again, I remember young captains being intimidated by my age and 10+ years aviation background.
Having been in both situations, my advice to you is to let this one pass. Learn to undergird the leadership of your captain and help him/her to relax with you and the special skills that you bring to the cockpit. Win them over with your cooperative attitude, your great skills and the fact that you are a person who is a pleasure to fly with.
Finally: I hope that you get a chance to move to the left seat soon. While, again, I have been in both seats, I can tell you that the mix of personal responsibility for the aircraft, responsibility for the crew and consideration of the welfare of passengers or cargo make the left seat "not as easy as it looks." Sometimes I long for only having to be responsible for my own tongue and my own attitude-which are the greatest responsibilities of an FO .
'Hope this helps you,
Skywerd

[issi noho]

Sorry I don't know any poetry (except Pam Ayres I am a Witney Blanket, which has no place here being neither from Yorkshire nor Lancs).

Back to the question with due regard for spelling and grammar; a valid type rating permits a pilot to fly that type within its limitations whilst a command is a position of legal responsibility (some might say management position) for the aircraft and its occupants between defined times. I should stop now but I think I'll go on a little.

Irrespective of the time on type, a commander may (and depending on the situation, should) delegate any or all of the flying to their P2 who, in aircraft type rating terms, is equally qualified (companies may place any restrictions on P2 or newly qualified commanders). That said the commander should also be aware that the company, travelling public, authorities and courts have expectations of their abilities and judgement of when to demonstrate those abilities. Any pilot who is not convinced in their own mind that they have the capacity to learn a new type and accept the responsibility of command should refuse the promotion.

During the type rating course and LST the candidate will either demonstrate the required standard and pass or fail to meet the standard and suffer further training or return to their old fleet to gain more experience (there are other scenarios). Assuming a pass the candidate progresses to line training and must demonstrate an ability to carry out the functions of a commander whilst operating the fine machinery. Once this stage is completed and checked the public can be assured that they are in no more danger behind a new captain than they are behind Capt 13000 hours.

Would it be better to do it all on one type; yes but then nobody said it was supposed to be easy and it is your own fault for working at a company with mixed fleets. You really should have discussed this at the interview when they said do you have any questions.