Passenger pontification and pilot safety
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Passenger pontification and pilot safety
As a passenger, I had to register on this forum because I know understand why so many people have a fear of flying and prefer to take trains or drive cars. Some of the real world pilots here have such a condescending, impertinent way of speaking and such an over-self-confidence that I would not like to have them as pilots on a flight I am on. I simply would not trust them to be safe pilots and I would not like to be a passenger on a British Airways flight ever again, that´ s for sure!
If this BA flight had to declare an emergency, this alone proves that safety was compromised by continuing the flight and I only would have hoped that BA would have been fined a much larger sum!
If pilots are such heroes and have no problems with "unusual situations" why do they switch off the wrong engine (British Midland, 1989), begin a takeoff without having the permission to do it (KLM, Tenerife, 1977), stall airplanes (Birgenair, 1996/ Northwest Orient, 1974/BEA, 1972), fly until they run out of fuel (Avianca, 1990/Antillian Airlines, 1970), land with retracted landing gear(Contintental Airlines, 1996), forget to configure flaps for departure (Northwest Airlines, 1987), land at the wrong airport or do other crazy things. The list is endless. Often an accident is initiated by a seemingly irrelevant incident.
In short: a little bit more caution and modesty would be much appreciated by the poor passengers. I don´t like pilots to play with MY life! I like cautious pilots who would rather return to the depature airport than try to save their company some money!
If this BA flight had to declare an emergency, this alone proves that safety was compromised by continuing the flight and I only would have hoped that BA would have been fined a much larger sum!
If pilots are such heroes and have no problems with "unusual situations" why do they switch off the wrong engine (British Midland, 1989), begin a takeoff without having the permission to do it (KLM, Tenerife, 1977), stall airplanes (Birgenair, 1996/ Northwest Orient, 1974/BEA, 1972), fly until they run out of fuel (Avianca, 1990/Antillian Airlines, 1970), land with retracted landing gear(Contintental Airlines, 1996), forget to configure flaps for departure (Northwest Airlines, 1987), land at the wrong airport or do other crazy things. The list is endless. Often an accident is initiated by a seemingly irrelevant incident.
In short: a little bit more caution and modesty would be much appreciated by the poor passengers. I don´t like pilots to play with MY life! I like cautious pilots who would rather return to the depature airport than try to save their company some money!
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Forgive my ignorance but...
Could they be sure that "the fuel in the main tank associated with the shutdown engine" wasn't the cause of the shutdown?
Could they be sure that "the fuel in the main tank associated with the shutdown engine" wasn't the cause of the shutdown?
Some of the real world pilots here have such a condescending, impertinent way of speaking and such an over-self-confidence that I would not like to have them as pilots on a flight I am on.
If this BA flight had to declare an emergency, this alone proves that safety was compromised by continuing the flight
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Originally Posted by Hand Solo
Sadly thats total b*****s and merely serves to demonstrate your lack of understanding of jet aircraft or the rules of the air.
Obviously declaring an emergency is just big fun for you.
You don´t have to be an expert to KNOW that it is safer to fly on an airplane with all 4 engines running than to be on one with one engine shut off (if it had been safer this way, Boeing certainly would have constructed the 747 in such a way that three engines are "real ones" and one is a dummy)! So there MUST be a decreased level of safety (even if this situation might still be considered to be "safe enough" by some authorities)!
Perhaps you are the kind of person who insists on a full run down of how your surgeon will perform an operation and make misguided suggestions as to how you think it should be done better? You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean it's in any way factually correct. Which it isn't.
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Hey The Passenger,
The reason that some may sound condescending to you is that we are fed up to the back teeth with the press and passengers who think that they know something about flying second guessing our every move.
This is our profession. We take pride in doing it well. NOTHING that these guys did was unprofessional or unsafe. Some days you end up declaring an emergency - that's the way that flying is.
How about I come to your place of work and critique everything that you do - even though I may understand little of what you do.
Don't fly with us - you will not be missed.
The reason that some may sound condescending to you is that we are fed up to the back teeth with the press and passengers who think that they know something about flying second guessing our every move.
This is our profession. We take pride in doing it well. NOTHING that these guys did was unprofessional or unsafe. Some days you end up declaring an emergency - that's the way that flying is.
How about I come to your place of work and critique everything that you do - even though I may understand little of what you do.
Don't fly with us - you will not be missed.
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Originally Posted by Ricky Whizz
Hey The Passenger,
The reason that some may sound condescending to you is that we are fed up to the back teeth with the press and passengers who think that they know something about flying second guessing our every move.
The reason that some may sound condescending to you is that we are fed up to the back teeth with the press and passengers who think that they know something about flying second guessing our every move.
This is our profession. We take pride in doing it well. NOTHING that these guys did was unprofessional or unsafe. Some days you end up declaring an emergency - that's the way that flying is.
You have a strange point of view calling "flying a Boeing 747 thousands of miles in an 'unairworthy condition'" (according to U.S. government documents/International Herald Tribune) "professional" and "safe"!
So why was BA fined $25000 then - for flying "professional" and "safe"???
Don't fly with us - you will not be missed.
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Oh dear, of dear. 'the passenger' doesn't like our attitudes when we treat them on this forum condescendingly. Well, what do you expect when you and others whose only real experience of our job is sitting down the back yet you feel it necessary to come on here and tell us how it should have been handled based solely on your very limited knowledge of what is involved.
Yes, we treat you like the fool you are on here because you spectacularly fail to understand the intricacies of our job. Spouting off a list of aircraft disasters by itself is not indicative of anything. Apart from the fact that we all learn from others mistakes, you would do well to put those disasters into the overall context of the actual number of flights, hours and aircraft worldwide and then look at the accident statistics.
Personally, none of us could really care less that you will not fly BA anymore or any other airline for than matter. If your IQ is so abysmally low to realise that it is statistically much safer to travel by air, especially with an airline like BA, then you deserve to put yourself at more risk by using less safe airlines. I think it's called natural selection and your living in the shallow end of the gene pool shows itself by your silly post on here.
No pilot discussing this incident on here is "playing with your life" and they certainly don't do so when on the job. If your ignorance fails to let you understand that then you'd better be prepared for your ego to severely battered on here. It's like lambs to the slaughter some days. On the one hand it fair game and a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. On the other it's cringingly painful to have to read the utter tripe that some opinionated nosey people write on here.
Yes, we treat you like the fool you are on here because you spectacularly fail to understand the intricacies of our job. Spouting off a list of aircraft disasters by itself is not indicative of anything. Apart from the fact that we all learn from others mistakes, you would do well to put those disasters into the overall context of the actual number of flights, hours and aircraft worldwide and then look at the accident statistics.
Personally, none of us could really care less that you will not fly BA anymore or any other airline for than matter. If your IQ is so abysmally low to realise that it is statistically much safer to travel by air, especially with an airline like BA, then you deserve to put yourself at more risk by using less safe airlines. I think it's called natural selection and your living in the shallow end of the gene pool shows itself by your silly post on here.
No pilot discussing this incident on here is "playing with your life" and they certainly don't do so when on the job. If your ignorance fails to let you understand that then you'd better be prepared for your ego to severely battered on here. It's like lambs to the slaughter some days. On the one hand it fair game and a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. On the other it's cringingly painful to have to read the utter tripe that some opinionated nosey people write on here.
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The passenger (hopefully not for much longer).
The fine is a 'proposal' numbskull and it's being contested.
I hope that you take more care in reading any documents that relate to your work - as I am sure that you would expect us to.
The Newspaper is reporting (not commenting) and the FAA is fishing (for a way out of their own mistake).
The fine is a 'proposal' numbskull and it's being contested.
I hope that you take more care in reading any documents that relate to your work - as I am sure that you would expect us to.
The Newspaper is reporting (not commenting) and the FAA is fishing (for a way out of their own mistake).
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Originally Posted by arewenearlythereyet?
Oh dear, of dear. 'the passenger' doesn't like our attitudes when we treat them on this forum condescendingly. Well, what do you expect when you and others whose only real experience of our job is sitting down the back yet you feel it necessary to come on here and tell us how it should have been handled based solely on your very limited knowledge of what is involved.
Yes, we treat you like the fool you are on here because you spectacularly fail to understand the intricacies of our job.
Yes, we treat you like the fool you are on here because you spectacularly fail to understand the intricacies of our job.
Personally, none of us could really care less that you will not fly BA anymore or any other airline for than matter.
If your IQ is so abysmally low to realise that it is statistically much safer to travel by air, especially with an airline like BA, then you deserve to put yourself at more risk by using less safe airlines. I think it's called natural selection and your living in the shallow end of the gene pool shows itself by your silly post on here.
If your IQ is so abysmally low to realise that it is statistically much safer to travel by air, especially with an airline like BA, then you deserve to put yourself at more risk by using less safe airlines. I think it's called natural selection and your living in the shallow end of the gene pool shows itself by your silly post on here.
...then you'd better be prepared for your ego to severely battered on here.
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Originally Posted by arewenearlythereyet?
...
Personally, none of us could really care less that you will not fly BA anymore or any other airline for than matter. If your IQ is so abysmally low to realise that it is statistically much safer to travel by air, especially with an airline like BA, then you deserve to put yourself at more risk by using less safe airlines...
Personally, none of us could really care less that you will not fly BA anymore or any other airline for than matter. If your IQ is so abysmally low to realise that it is statistically much safer to travel by air, especially with an airline like BA, then you deserve to put yourself at more risk by using less safe airlines...
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Originally Posted by the passenger
If pilots are such heroes and have no problems with "unusual situations"
why do they switch off the wrong engine (British Midland, 1989),
begin a takeoff without having the permission to do it (KLM, Tenerife, 1977)
stall airplanes (Birgenair, 1996/ Northwest Orient, 1974/BEA, 1972),
I like cautious pilots who would rather return to the depature airport than try to save their company some money!
J.
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I was under the impression that this was a flight-deck forum called
Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots
Now I'm not a professional pilot and as such I have very little to contribute to this particular forum. As a very frequent flier and an amateur pilot I do like to have an idea of what's going on at the pointy end of the tube and for that reason I read many of the threads here, and whatever I may feel or think, I do not have the training or experience to question the decisions made by the crew. I would be less than impressed if a B744 captain questioned my professional decisions, and the same should hold true for the rest of us.
By all means have a discussion about this, but use the appropriate forum to do so.
ab
Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots
Now I'm not a professional pilot and as such I have very little to contribute to this particular forum. As a very frequent flier and an amateur pilot I do like to have an idea of what's going on at the pointy end of the tube and for that reason I read many of the threads here, and whatever I may feel or think, I do not have the training or experience to question the decisions made by the crew. I would be less than impressed if a B744 captain questioned my professional decisions, and the same should hold true for the rest of us.
By all means have a discussion about this, but use the appropriate forum to do so.
ab
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Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
That's not being said, but it can be argued that such situations are rigorously trained for.
Because the cross-training provided from 737-300 to 737-400 at British Midland was not completely adequate (bleed air comes from the right engine on the 733, both engines on the 734 - pilots saw smoke in the cabin, deduced incorrectly it was the right engine that was malfunctioning...)
Because of overly strict scheduling laws that sound good in theory, but often cause problems in practice
Only one of these (the second) can be proven as pilot error - the first was a maintenance mistake, and the final one was due to incapacitation in the cockpit at a crucial stage of flight.
The third example: Well, yes, but there was a co-pilot on board...
Something tells me you're the kind of person who'd be the first to complain and demand compensation if you arrived at your destination 24+ hours late because of a minor fault with a quadruple-redundant system.
If the flight is late due to technical (or weather) problems that´ s OK with me.
As has been pointed out, most US carriers do the same route on 2 engines every day... I fail to see the excessive danger in doing it on 3.
J.
J.
Nevertheless, thanks for the first intelligent reply!
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OK, time has come, once again, to issue a warning to our self appointed 'experts' who in fact have never, ever, flown a B744 and quite probably, never, ever, flown a commercial airliner, never mind a jet. One particular poster in particular seems hell bent on trying to teach those us who do fly heavy jets and the B744 in particular, how to suck eggs.
If you want to appear knowledgeable on these forums then do not try to tell us how to operate, fly and handle abnormal situations. Austrian Simon in particular seems fixated on trying to teach us how to handle a B744 in a cross-wind with two engines out on the same side. Well, let me tell you AS, unless you are an experienced B744 pilot and I'm willing to wager that you aren't, please wind your neck in a notch or two as you are irritating the majority of us who do fly the B744.
Whilst there are differing opinions on what any of us who fly the B744 would have done under the same circumstances, I don't think any of us would deny that the B744 having a non-catastrophic engine failure at any stage after V1 is not quite the same as having the same problem in a twin engined aircraft. I have again looked through my QRH for the B744 and nowhere does it say land at the nearest suitable airport for an engine failure. Have you any idea of the redundancy available in a B744?
So, please stop wittering on about losing a second engine or climb gradients on two engines. As long as the aircraft still has three engines running it is certified for continued flight. Whether you would want to is another matter and as you will probably only ever be a passenger in one, you will have to rely on the professionalism of the crew and the back up they receive from their operations department, which in BA, is probably one of the best.
Experience of Microsoft Flight Simulator or even having been given a joyride once or twice in a real simulator does not confer on you any 'expertise' worthy of posting irritating pontifications on here. When you've at least qualified to fly a twin engined jet and have a bit of experience behind you, then you will be given the respect you deserve when you post your opinions about how to handle the situation on here. Qualify to fly the aircraft in question, the B744, then you will be listened to and your arguments will have the necessary weight of experience behind them. Until then, please refrain from posting your opinions based on a joyride in a sim.
If you want to appear knowledgeable on these forums then do not try to tell us how to operate, fly and handle abnormal situations. Austrian Simon in particular seems fixated on trying to teach us how to handle a B744 in a cross-wind with two engines out on the same side. Well, let me tell you AS, unless you are an experienced B744 pilot and I'm willing to wager that you aren't, please wind your neck in a notch or two as you are irritating the majority of us who do fly the B744.
Whilst there are differing opinions on what any of us who fly the B744 would have done under the same circumstances, I don't think any of us would deny that the B744 having a non-catastrophic engine failure at any stage after V1 is not quite the same as having the same problem in a twin engined aircraft. I have again looked through my QRH for the B744 and nowhere does it say land at the nearest suitable airport for an engine failure. Have you any idea of the redundancy available in a B744?
So, please stop wittering on about losing a second engine or climb gradients on two engines. As long as the aircraft still has three engines running it is certified for continued flight. Whether you would want to is another matter and as you will probably only ever be a passenger in one, you will have to rely on the professionalism of the crew and the back up they receive from their operations department, which in BA, is probably one of the best.
Experience of Microsoft Flight Simulator or even having been given a joyride once or twice in a real simulator does not confer on you any 'expertise' worthy of posting irritating pontifications on here. When you've at least qualified to fly a twin engined jet and have a bit of experience behind you, then you will be given the respect you deserve when you post your opinions about how to handle the situation on here. Qualify to fly the aircraft in question, the B744, then you will be listened to and your arguments will have the necessary weight of experience behind them. Until then, please refrain from posting your opinions based on a joyride in a sim.
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[pedant mode on]
ETOPS - Engines Turning Or Passengers Swimming
You should use the "correct" terminology, as an expert in air travel you claim to be.
[pedant mode stby]
GD&L
("Engines Running Or Passengers Swimming").
You should use the "correct" terminology, as an expert in air travel you claim to be.
[pedant mode stby]
GD&L
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Originally Posted by arewenearlythereyet?
Personally, none of us could really care less that you will not fly BA anymore or any other airline for than matter. If your IQ is so abysmally low to realise that it is statistically much safer to travel by air, especially with an airline like BA, then you deserve to put yourself at more risk by using less safe airlines. I think it's called natural selection and your living in the shallow end of the gene pool shows itself by your silly post on here.
http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publ...obability.html
by Peter Ladkin, University of Bielefeld
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Without soliciting another complete diatribe from the passenger, just wondering how you would feel if you had been a passenger on the longest ETOPS diversion. I believe it was 3 hours 6 minutes on one engine across the Pacific. For me, I'll take the 3 engined BA 747 everytime. Well done BA.
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Originally Posted by GearDown&Locked
[pedant mode on]
ETOPS - Engines Turning Or Passengers Swimming
You should use the "correct" terminology, as an expert in air travel you claim to be.
[pedant mode stby]
GD&L
ETOPS - Engines Turning Or Passengers Swimming
You should use the "correct" terminology, as an expert in air travel you claim to be.
[pedant mode stby]
GD&L
Apart from that it was really interesting to see how long it would take until someone would notice it
I think the JAA uses EROPS??? But if not, you know what I mean...
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alemaobaiano
Totally, completely, entirely agree. In same boat as you (CPL holder with rapidly decaying currency) and have read some serious drivel here from the Flight Sim community.
Jesus H Chr!st, stop arguing with the real pilots!
Totally, completely, entirely agree. In same boat as you (CPL holder with rapidly decaying currency) and have read some serious drivel here from the Flight Sim community.
Jesus H Chr!st, stop arguing with the real pilots!