lock door policy
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lock door policy
Hi guys
i am junior cabin crew,and recently did a flight where a young lad asked if he could look in the flight deck.as is normal procedure we said "no not during the flight,but we'll ask the captain and he might let you in once we have landed and all the other passengers have disembarked"
so we called the captain to let him know someone wanted to stick their head round the door and to check if it was ok and he just said that the lad could come up straight away, during the flight.
i know how strict the lock door policy is since 9/11,should i report this captain for doing this,as who knows who could have been onboard the aircraft?
i am junior cabin crew,and recently did a flight where a young lad asked if he could look in the flight deck.as is normal procedure we said "no not during the flight,but we'll ask the captain and he might let you in once we have landed and all the other passengers have disembarked"
so we called the captain to let him know someone wanted to stick their head round the door and to check if it was ok and he just said that the lad could come up straight away, during the flight.
i know how strict the lock door policy is since 9/11,should i report this captain for doing this,as who knows who could have been onboard the aircraft?
I've never heard of any kid disrupting anything during a cockpit visit -- I was always on my best behavior.
The one thing to watch out for is a bad guy taking advantage of the door opening; so, apply the normal precautions.
The one thing to watch out for is a bad guy taking advantage of the door opening; so, apply the normal precautions.
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I'm non-aircrew, but still have an interest in this.
I'm with 'Ratherbeflying'- I really appreciated cockpit visits as a young lad, and feel that the situation we find ourselves in nowdays is letting the terrorists win due to our loss of freedoms ( read 'increase in restrictions').
Was it really only a few years ago that had raffles of the jumpseat and the proceeds to charity? I was on one of those flights and the general feeling among the other passengers for the winner was 'lucky sod'. How times have changed
Don't report the Captain- he is applying commonsense over the rules, IMHO.
I'm with 'Ratherbeflying'- I really appreciated cockpit visits as a young lad, and feel that the situation we find ourselves in nowdays is letting the terrorists win due to our loss of freedoms ( read 'increase in restrictions').
Was it really only a few years ago that had raffles of the jumpseat and the proceeds to charity? I was on one of those flights and the general feeling among the other passengers for the winner was 'lucky sod'. How times have changed
Don't report the Captain- he is applying commonsense over the rules, IMHO.
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The Captain might be applying common sense over rules Bigears, but he is in breach of DFT directives that say the locked door is not to be opened to anyone unauthorised inflight.
The problem is tiggerific_69 if you report the captain, you will also be in the brown stuff as you complied with the captains instruction when you know full well that NOBODY is allowed in the flight deck unless they are operating crew.
I personally wouldn't report the captain, but I would make sure that in future if I was in that situation that I informed the captain that it is against not just company SOP's but also the DFT rules that have to be followed and I would respectfully inform him that the lad will visit the flight deck on arrival - if the captain didn't like that, well tough on the captain as you are complying with established rules which must not be deviated from!
The problem is tiggerific_69 if you report the captain, you will also be in the brown stuff as you complied with the captains instruction when you know full well that NOBODY is allowed in the flight deck unless they are operating crew.
I personally wouldn't report the captain, but I would make sure that in future if I was in that situation that I informed the captain that it is against not just company SOP's but also the DFT rules that have to be followed and I would respectfully inform him that the lad will visit the flight deck on arrival - if the captain didn't like that, well tough on the captain as you are complying with established rules which must not be deviated from!
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The rules in this regard ( certainly inthe UK and many other countries) are clear cut and are not open to interpretation, or anything else. The Captain may have been well intentioned but that is simply irrelevant. In this case if they did as you suggest they were totally in the wrong and in violation of the rules.
My suggestion though would be that you apply whatever recourse you see as appropriate. It might be better to approach the individual discreetly and point out that these actions put you in an invidious position both with the other crew who are witness to these events and with the company and DfT whose policy and instruction is clear. Whatever may be everyones personal feelings on these matters ( and you may well be sympathetic), you yourself are liable to be disciplined for contributing to such infractions.
Although the Captains feathers may be a little ruffled by the approach, I think less so than a formal complaint through the management structure. If such an approach was ignored in the future then they would have little arguement with any subsequent action that almost certainly would result.
That would be my suggestion in this event, and an adult response. You are of course within your rights and ordinarilly required to report any safety or security concerns through the properly notified channels, so at the end of the day it is your call and responsibility rests on your shoulders for that decision.
My suggestion though would be that you apply whatever recourse you see as appropriate. It might be better to approach the individual discreetly and point out that these actions put you in an invidious position both with the other crew who are witness to these events and with the company and DfT whose policy and instruction is clear. Whatever may be everyones personal feelings on these matters ( and you may well be sympathetic), you yourself are liable to be disciplined for contributing to such infractions.
Although the Captains feathers may be a little ruffled by the approach, I think less so than a formal complaint through the management structure. If such an approach was ignored in the future then they would have little arguement with any subsequent action that almost certainly would result.
That would be my suggestion in this event, and an adult response. You are of course within your rights and ordinarilly required to report any safety or security concerns through the properly notified channels, so at the end of the day it is your call and responsibility rests on your shoulders for that decision.
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Everyone has their own opinion on this situation but I have to tell my experience this summer on Thomson flight from Turkey.
We had just been pushed back from terminal at about 1am and we began to taxi (very fast) down to the runway. As we were going so fast we all looked forward and I saw that the flight deck door was wide open. I don't know who would be to fault over this but don't the cabin crew sit at the front right next to the flight deck door? They should have seen it was open and shut it.
Before we took off it was closed but I didn't see who actually closed it.
The aircraft was a Thomsonfly 767.
We had just been pushed back from terminal at about 1am and we began to taxi (very fast) down to the runway. As we were going so fast we all looked forward and I saw that the flight deck door was wide open. I don't know who would be to fault over this but don't the cabin crew sit at the front right next to the flight deck door? They should have seen it was open and shut it.
Before we took off it was closed but I didn't see who actually closed it.
The aircraft was a Thomsonfly 767.
Only half a speed-brake
tiggerific_69:
The rules are absolutely clear.
I think you did the right thing, not to report the commander but look for further knowledge elsewhere first and only then make your OWN opinion. Later when you do not feel the need to refer to yourself as "junior" (I do call junior myself) we will grow to be experienced for such decisions. A report may stay in captains papers and yours(!) for a long time - words are mighty, let's tread lightly.
If the captain was a really nice person, while seeking guidance from your CC superior, perhaps it may even be possible to approach him and ask for help with your dilemma. Now, that would be the ideal case.
I like the name of the forum you chose, the door is a security feature. So what are the effects on:
Security?
Safety?
CRM?
Should any unforeseen circumstances arise in flight (bad weather, technical problem, abusive drunks, major security issue), the key to keeping all souls on board happy and unharmed is mutual trust. If one can evolve this to mutual understanding, even better.
To me it seems that you faced a situation where the trust (from your point of view) was rightfully questioned. I suggest you endeavour not to lose the trust but try to find understanding instead.
All said, the rules for security doors are straight and leave NO room for mis-interpretation.
261A:
To close and LOCK the door is SOP. S stands for standard.
Something went unusual and the crew returned to their routine just after the point where you lock and check the door? Finger trouble? I do not know. I remember that once the door remained unlocked, flung open with loud bang on rotation just to be slammed shut two or three times VERY shortly afterwards. The captain did make his opinion on this very clear later.
Cheers,
FD
(the-unreal)
I think you did the right thing, not to report the commander but look for further knowledge elsewhere first and only then make your OWN opinion. Later when you do not feel the need to refer to yourself as "junior" (I do call junior myself) we will grow to be experienced for such decisions. A report may stay in captains papers and yours(!) for a long time - words are mighty, let's tread lightly.
If the captain was a really nice person, while seeking guidance from your CC superior, perhaps it may even be possible to approach him and ask for help with your dilemma. Now, that would be the ideal case.
I like the name of the forum you chose, the door is a security feature. So what are the effects on:
Security?
Safety?
CRM?
Should any unforeseen circumstances arise in flight (bad weather, technical problem, abusive drunks, major security issue), the key to keeping all souls on board happy and unharmed is mutual trust. If one can evolve this to mutual understanding, even better.
To me it seems that you faced a situation where the trust (from your point of view) was rightfully questioned. I suggest you endeavour not to lose the trust but try to find understanding instead.
All said, the rules for security doors are straight and leave NO room for mis-interpretation.
261A:
To close and LOCK the door is SOP. S stands for standard.
Something went unusual and the crew returned to their routine just after the point where you lock and check the door? Finger trouble? I do not know. I remember that once the door remained unlocked, flung open with loud bang on rotation just to be slammed shut two or three times VERY shortly afterwards. The captain did make his opinion on this very clear later. Cheers,
FD
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261A, you make my point nicely- you were more worried that rules were broken than the thought that you were being hijacked!
Getoutofmygalley (what a great name ) you are of course correct - if the rule is there, it should be obeyed. Your 'word in the ear' is a good solution.
Of course I'm not aircrew, so my opinion should count less than those who are- its just my 2p worth.
Anyhow, fly safely
Getoutofmygalley (what a great name
) you are of course correct - if the rule is there, it should be obeyed. Your 'word in the ear' is a good solution.Of course I'm not aircrew, so my opinion should count less than those who are- its just my 2p worth.
Anyhow, fly safely
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Bigears,
I was worried about the rules and safety/security of the aircraft but that is less of a worry as we were on the ground and would be stupid for anyone to attempt a hijack on the ground would say something if it was open once taken off.
FlightDetent,
If the rules on UK airlines/aircraft are to not allow visits to the flight deck and only to allow them when aircraft has landed and all passengers have disembarked then the door should not be open at all while passengers are onboard.
Just my thoughts, everyone has their opinion.
I was worried about the rules and safety/security of the aircraft but that is less of a worry as we were on the ground and would be stupid for anyone to attempt a hijack on the ground would say something if it was open once taken off.
FlightDetent,
If the rules on UK airlines/aircraft are to not allow visits to the flight deck and only to allow them when aircraft has landed and all passengers have disembarked then the door should not be open at all while passengers are onboard.
Just my thoughts, everyone has their opinion.
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As an ATPL student my view is that the captain should not be reported,he is in charge of the aircraft and in my eyes can do as he pleases,the only person with any right to argue the point is the first officer.(No offence cabin crew)
If I am fortunate enough to be a captain one day I will certainly let kids visit the flight deck.
IF THE PEOPLE IN THE TERMINAL DO THEIR JOB PROPERLY THERE WILL NOT BE ANY"BAD GUYS" ON THE AIRCRAFT.
As for the DFT.....Bunch of desk jockeys making up rules for the sake of it,the events on 9/11 were not caused by a child on the flight deck,they were caused by brainwashed simpletons gaining access to the flight deck.Judging by the chaos they caused,I for one am sure a locked door would not have stopped them.
BIGEARS IS RIGHT -COMMON SENSE OVER RULES.
If I am fortunate enough to be a captain one day I will certainly let kids visit the flight deck.
IF THE PEOPLE IN THE TERMINAL DO THEIR JOB PROPERLY THERE WILL NOT BE ANY"BAD GUYS" ON THE AIRCRAFT.
As for the DFT.....Bunch of desk jockeys making up rules for the sake of it,the events on 9/11 were not caused by a child on the flight deck,they were caused by brainwashed simpletons gaining access to the flight deck.Judging by the chaos they caused,I for one am sure a locked door would not have stopped them.
BIGEARS IS RIGHT -COMMON SENSE OVER RULES.
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Well markflyer that may be your view and you may be a student, but I am afraid it is a naive viewpoint. A Captain is in charge of an aircraft, its crew and passengers and any cargo. However that charge is expected to be conducted within the rules and regulations as laid down. There may well be occaisions when that has to be modified to suit a situation but it is not a matter of "do as he pleases" and of course nor should it be. Captains are not placed in their post by divine right, they are placed there by virtue of their demonstrated ability to not only fly the aircraft well, but to be effective managers in that role. Being an effective manager is seldom demonstrated by adopting a pick and choose version of the rules and constraints that one operates by. Indeed it sets a poor example to others and would do little to endear respect from other people.
Your bold type bit about people in the terminal doing their job is also a little naive and rather overstating the obvious in an ideal world.
If you are fortunate enough to be a Captain one day it will be because you are someone in whom your employer can place their trust. Allowing kids or anyone else on the flightdeck is constrained at this time in the Uk to pre flight and post flight only. As such it is not up to you to decide to violate this rule, without placing others in an invidious position, and thus demonstrating poor leadership. That is the point of the thread starters post.
Whatever you may feel, your version of common sense is not necessarily an adequate substitute for the statutes we currently have to work under. Should you one day find yourself in this position you will realise the point and better understand the difficulty expressed by tiggerific.
Your bold type bit about people in the terminal doing their job is also a little naive and rather overstating the obvious in an ideal world.
If you are fortunate enough to be a Captain one day it will be because you are someone in whom your employer can place their trust. Allowing kids or anyone else on the flightdeck is constrained at this time in the Uk to pre flight and post flight only. As such it is not up to you to decide to violate this rule, without placing others in an invidious position, and thus demonstrating poor leadership. That is the point of the thread starters post.
Whatever you may feel, your version of common sense is not necessarily an adequate substitute for the statutes we currently have to work under. Should you one day find yourself in this position you will realise the point and better understand the difficulty expressed by tiggerific.
My earlier comment was made without knowledge of your particular regulatory regime -- although I along with others do feel it is over stringent in this case.
As to how you address this matter, the earlier posters have mostly commented well.
As to how you address this matter, the earlier posters have mostly commented well.
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My point was,the likleyhood of some crazed taliban member charging up the aisle because the flight deck door is open is pretty slim.
Maybe my views on terminal security are naive,however that is the only place these people can be stopped,the usual approach of-did you pack your bags? is hardly high security.
Surely the cabin crew understand the need for young people who want to see the flight deck?
As mentioned earlier in this thread the word in the ear is probably the best plan and I understand tiggeriffic's conundrum,but I'm sure they can see that although rules were bent,it did not endanger an aircraft.
The biggest danger to aircraft these days are football fans,ingerlund! etc (read drunken thugs!),they would be the first to try their luck with an unlocked door.Cabin crew have my upmost respect for putting up with people like that,if I do make it in to the left seat,on those flights the door will stay firmly shut.
As for this visits on the ground only rule...who wants to look at the terminal out of the window,after all it is the view not the buttons that are interesting
Maybe my views on terminal security are naive,however that is the only place these people can be stopped,the usual approach of-did you pack your bags? is hardly high security.
Surely the cabin crew understand the need for young people who want to see the flight deck?
As mentioned earlier in this thread the word in the ear is probably the best plan and I understand tiggeriffic's conundrum,but I'm sure they can see that although rules were bent,it did not endanger an aircraft.
The biggest danger to aircraft these days are football fans,ingerlund! etc (read drunken thugs!),they would be the first to try their luck with an unlocked door.Cabin crew have my upmost respect for putting up with people like that,if I do make it in to the left seat,on those flights the door will stay firmly shut.
As for this visits on the ground only rule...who wants to look at the terminal out of the window,after all it is the view not the buttons that are interesting
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markflyer6580 I don't agree with your opinion that only the First Officer has the right to argue the point with the Captain. If I was flying with a Captain who was breaking the rules and insisting on breaking the rules then I as Cabin Crew would not have any problem with reporting him or voicing my opinion to him.
What if us Cabin Crew are relying on the First Officer to stand up to the Captain, but the First Officer was very green and too scared to stand up to the Captain? If the Captain was to allow a child into the flight deck and the First Officer kept his mouth shut, then not only would the Captain and Cabin Crew get into trouble, but also so would the First Officer.
The last line of defense on any passenger aircraft is the Cabin Crew and NOBODY gets into the flight deck on any aircraft I am working on UNLESS the aircraft is already on the ground.
Whilst the DFT rules might seem a bit severe to you, they are rules that we all have to follow in this country. You might think the DFT are a bunch of desk jockeys (which they most probably are) - but they are looking out for the safety of everyone, not just those in the aircraft but also those on the ground.
If you ever make it into the left hand seat, you will have to follow SOP's unless you have bloody good grounds to ignore them and unfortunately disobeying an SOP about aircraft security is not one you will easily talk yourself out of.
And please please please don't ever rely on the people in the terminal from stopping the bad guys or dangerous items getting on the aircraft - aircraft security is everyones business!
What if us Cabin Crew are relying on the First Officer to stand up to the Captain, but the First Officer was very green and too scared to stand up to the Captain? If the Captain was to allow a child into the flight deck and the First Officer kept his mouth shut, then not only would the Captain and Cabin Crew get into trouble, but also so would the First Officer.
The last line of defense on any passenger aircraft is the Cabin Crew and NOBODY gets into the flight deck on any aircraft I am working on UNLESS the aircraft is already on the ground.
Whilst the DFT rules might seem a bit severe to you, they are rules that we all have to follow in this country. You might think the DFT are a bunch of desk jockeys (which they most probably are) - but they are looking out for the safety of everyone, not just those in the aircraft but also those on the ground.
If you ever make it into the left hand seat, you will have to follow SOP's unless you have bloody good grounds to ignore them and unfortunately disobeying an SOP about aircraft security is not one you will easily talk yourself out of.
And please please please don't ever rely on the people in the terminal from stopping the bad guys or dangerous items getting on the aircraft - aircraft security is everyones business!
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In this instance it was a child,if it was a large chap going in to have a look then something needs to be said.
I agree with you that it is a team affair running an aircraft but the captain is the captain and that is the end of it.
If I was the man in charge and you said no to somebody then fair enough and I would respect your descision as you are the people dealing with the pax all the time.
I however fully understand what you mean about "green" f/o's and my first post was didn't really appear how I wanted!
My view was more of a flying related one i.e f/o can call to stop take off or take control if he thinks the captain is about to do something dangerous,many accidents have been caused because the f/o was too scared to intervene,hence I can understand your fears of relying in them!
Some of these SOP's are ridiculous though and we would not have them if it wasn't for the mindless few,I would be interested to know what your thoughts were on flight deck visits pre 9/11 etc,after all planes still got hijacked back then,if its going to happen it will methinks.
As for your last point about security I fully agree,the problem is that the pilots or your cabin crew colleagues cannot stop things being smuggled on without checking everybodys bags,hence why terminal security should be improved. I fly from a regional airport where even when flying GA you have to go through security all bags through x ray then a search if you set offf the alarm.Even then you cannot get close to the airliners yet pax can wander around them with no real direction when they come from the terminal? But then there is no fence around half of the airport,all a bit of a joke really.
By the way I think cabin crew are ace and deserve more credit for keeping aircraft in the sky than they get.
I agree with you that it is a team affair running an aircraft but the captain is the captain and that is the end of it.
If I was the man in charge and you said no to somebody then fair enough and I would respect your descision as you are the people dealing with the pax all the time.
I however fully understand what you mean about "green" f/o's and my first post was didn't really appear how I wanted!
My view was more of a flying related one i.e f/o can call to stop take off or take control if he thinks the captain is about to do something dangerous,many accidents have been caused because the f/o was too scared to intervene,hence I can understand your fears of relying in them!
Some of these SOP's are ridiculous though and we would not have them if it wasn't for the mindless few,I would be interested to know what your thoughts were on flight deck visits pre 9/11 etc,after all planes still got hijacked back then,if its going to happen it will methinks.
As for your last point about security I fully agree,the problem is that the pilots or your cabin crew colleagues cannot stop things being smuggled on without checking everybodys bags,hence why terminal security should be improved. I fly from a regional airport where even when flying GA you have to go through security all bags through x ray then a search if you set offf the alarm.Even then you cannot get close to the airliners yet pax can wander around them with no real direction when they come from the terminal? But then there is no fence around half of the airport,all a bit of a joke really.
By the way I think cabin crew are ace and deserve more credit for keeping aircraft in the sky than they get.
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Before 9/11 I wasn't in aviation, so my thoughts on flight deck visits back then would have been along the lines of "wouldn't it be great to look out the windows at the front".
But post 9/11 (again before I was in aviation) when the full details of the atrocities became available, and the 'locked door' policy was created I thought that it was a shame, but fully understood and supported the reasons for it.
My views now (as a member of Cabin Crew) are that passengers should stay out of the flight deck, purely because you don't know what someone is going to do in there. If a passenger was to pull a lever or press a button, they could create a serious problem - so my personal opinion is that I would prefer passengers to only visit the flight deck when the aircraft has landed.
But post 9/11 (again before I was in aviation) when the full details of the atrocities became available, and the 'locked door' policy was created I thought that it was a shame, but fully understood and supported the reasons for it.
My views now (as a member of Cabin Crew) are that passengers should stay out of the flight deck, purely because you don't know what someone is going to do in there. If a passenger was to pull a lever or press a button, they could create a serious problem - so my personal opinion is that I would prefer passengers to only visit the flight deck when the aircraft has landed.
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Fair one,I would hope the crew would keep an eye on people whilst in there but it is a shame that its all been stopped,as it was such visits that sparked my love for flying,and you jammy buggers are the only ones who get in there now!
I would love a jump seat ride when I fly anywhere.
I would love a jump seat ride when I fly anywhere.
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I work with tiggerific, and to be honest I wouldn't have felt that good about the child being allowed into the flight deck. Just because it was a child, doesn't mean he wont do any harm...chances are slim but still...doesn't anyone remember that young boy strapping a bomb to himself in Iraq?? Fair enough we're not in Iraq but in the age of terrorism I wouldn't like to take my chances. As for the First Officer being the only one to challenge the Captain...I don't think so. If the SCCM feels the Captain may be putting the aircraft, passengers and crew at risk, he/she has the right to say so.
Está servira para distraerle.
So very sorry to say that in my company you are all fired!
The Captain is the master of the ship. All others on board are nothing more than appendages of one function or another, mostly of rather a transitory nature whilst they decide what they are going to do for a living.
When my pet python is not in my flight bag; I always carry either a cosh or a handgun. Most senior cabin stewards of my acquaintance are more than familiar with the more obscure martial arts. Please may the hostesses stay with the drinks trolley and not involve themselves in more obfuscatorial matters.
