Mayday or not to mayday?
It did came up in a couple of Hollywood & Bollywood D-movies. I just never had the nerve to watch the actions of heroic movie-flight-crew till the succesful landing by captain's 11yr old daughter from his first marriage so I can not comment on how can this very likely and severely probable situation be resolved.
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Someone in aviation once told me 'If it can happen one day it will'. However if everyone else also considers this scenario too unlikely to even consider then I apologise for taking up unnecessary bandwidth.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 1st Jan 2006 at 16:36.
Sorry mate, if I were more mature I'd tell you that in case of multiple emergencies in one sector it isn't as simple as first to declare emergency is first to land. Now ATCO has to decide which goes in first based on many, many variables like: severity of situation, PoB, will the emergency traffic be able to vacate the rwy on its own, fuel states, distance to airport, etc.... This decision would be certainly very tough and I really hope that no one, ever will have to make it.
But as I'm immature, I'll just stick to my first answer.
But as I'm immature, I'll just stick to my first answer.
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of course MAYDAY !!!
if you are flying with one engine out on a 2 eng a/C than you have 50 % lost, thats for me no doubt....its a MAYDAY situation.
You can also include during contact with ATC " on eninge out request priority to land" if you dont want to use the term MAYDAY.......
Wish you always a safe and happy flight
mikey
You can also include during contact with ATC " on eninge out request priority to land" if you dont want to use the term MAYDAY.......
Wish you always a safe and happy flight
mikey
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You can also include during contact with ATC " on eninge out request priority to land" if you dont want to use the term MAYDAY.......
Just a thought as to the use of words here... declaring a mayday vs declaring a pan is an airmanship call, (but if in doubt declare a mayday and downgrade to a pan at a later date imho), but the biggie is never to say nothing....
Mikey, have a look around the mil aircrew forum for the hawk mate in canada ejecting post a bird-strike. I'll give you a run down of it, but most ppl have seen it, there's a good learning point here which I've seen elsewhere as well....
The guy rolls from a touch n go, and takes a bird in the engine at around 300ft iirc, single engine, so he takes speed for height and looks for a relight, becomes clear he's not going to get it in time, so begins preparing his student for ejection. He then blats out a quick call to ATC who clearly are too busy drinking their tea to notice the hawk plunging earthwards outside their window
(joshing ATC mates, sure everything was done correctly! before anyone gets angry!)
Anyhow, the guy in the back puts out "Tower, Striker 2 ejecting to the north" (or words to that effect) fairly quickly and is obviously quite stressed (fair enough!) then the chaps both bang out. Cockpit recorder picks up ATC reply "Striker 2, copy you're breaking out to the north?" (being a North American term for leaving the cct, for guys who are unfamiliar, don't believe it gets used in the UK at all)
This highlights the need (especially when you're stressed! ie double engine failure, fire, imminent death, you know, another friday night in london....) to use phrases ATC are familiar with (especially in areas of the world where english is not the first language). If the guy had been in the middle of the bondu miles from anywhere, and not outside ATC's window, they might never have known.....
Fine in mikey's case he has plenty of time to have a chat about his single engine failure and ask nicely without using mayday.... but if you get into that habit in the sim, or in training, come the bad day at the office with your fuel contamination and the rest, make sure you're screaming "mayday" or pan at the top of you're voice!
Sorry for the rant! Hope it serves a purpose. For my 2 cents, mayday or pan also gives all you're colleagues a heads up as to whats going on and increases everyone's SA hugely....
Mikey, have a look around the mil aircrew forum for the hawk mate in canada ejecting post a bird-strike. I'll give you a run down of it, but most ppl have seen it, there's a good learning point here which I've seen elsewhere as well....
The guy rolls from a touch n go, and takes a bird in the engine at around 300ft iirc, single engine, so he takes speed for height and looks for a relight, becomes clear he's not going to get it in time, so begins preparing his student for ejection. He then blats out a quick call to ATC who clearly are too busy drinking their tea to notice the hawk plunging earthwards outside their window
(joshing ATC mates, sure everything was done correctly! before anyone gets angry!) Anyhow, the guy in the back puts out "Tower, Striker 2 ejecting to the north" (or words to that effect) fairly quickly and is obviously quite stressed (fair enough!) then the chaps both bang out. Cockpit recorder picks up ATC reply "Striker 2, copy you're breaking out to the north?" (being a North American term for leaving the cct, for guys who are unfamiliar, don't believe it gets used in the UK at all)
This highlights the need (especially when you're stressed! ie double engine failure, fire, imminent death, you know, another friday night in london....) to use phrases ATC are familiar with (especially in areas of the world where english is not the first language). If the guy had been in the middle of the bondu miles from anywhere, and not outside ATC's window, they might never have known.....
Fine in mikey's case he has plenty of time to have a chat about his single engine failure and ask nicely without using mayday.... but if you get into that habit in the sim, or in training, come the bad day at the office with your fuel contamination and the rest, make sure you're screaming "mayday" or pan at the top of you're voice!
Sorry for the rant! Hope it serves a purpose. For my 2 cents, mayday or pan also gives all you're colleagues a heads up as to whats going on and increases everyone's SA hugely....
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You can also include during contact with ATC " on eninge out request priority to land" if you dont want to use the term MAYDAY.......
Doesn't mean nor does it give you the same things as issuing a MAYDAY though does it? Hence think about what you say Mike.
"Roger Mayday" if a/c was at 50% power or less, or
"Roger Pan" if otherwise. Its not the Captain or First Officer who just decides what state to put on we have the authority to class an emergency too.
If I had 2 a/c on Maydays requesting the same aerodrome like in the example above then I, with supervisory advice obviously, would assess which is the best of the 2 to land there and then advise the other of a more suitable aerodrome instead. Where I work this is possible due to the amount of large pieces of concrete available - I would not like to only have one suitable runway in this senario!
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Patience!!!!
It’s no good, I cant read any more without getting involved, simply because I or someone I love might be flying on one of your aircraft. I appreciate it’s not everyone but there can be no doubt that if you lose an eng and your down to your last then it is an emergency that warrants priority and if you don’t get it then you go formal and declare Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!!! God forbid anything else could go wrong with the other eng/gens etc working harder but if it did you would look a bit of an A**e if you had spent a second longer airborne than you needed to.
As to FF: I don’t know you mate but I would just say that the majority of the guys/gals here appear to be beginners, I don’t mean that as a slight, we all were once, but you are not helping them at all by posting things like this;
“I am talking specifically about a twin engined jet with a contained engine failure or a shut down of one of the engines because of low oil pressure etc.
I may divert depending on distance to destination / landing weight issues / wx / airport facilities / engineering support. It is not a problem to get all hot under the collar about and in my book definately NOT a May Day.
That is the problem in the UK everything is a crisis.”
I hope someone in authority who knows you will convince you to spend some time back in training as a refresher before you continue to take unnecessary risks with other peoples lives and fail to take the opportunity to teach the new folks good airmanship. Rant over….
P.S. Halo – you obviously have been around a while and made excellent points. New folks you could spend your time well and re-read.
It’s no good, I cant read any more without getting involved, simply because I or someone I love might be flying on one of your aircraft. I appreciate it’s not everyone but there can be no doubt that if you lose an eng and your down to your last then it is an emergency that warrants priority and if you don’t get it then you go formal and declare Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!!! God forbid anything else could go wrong with the other eng/gens etc working harder but if it did you would look a bit of an A**e if you had spent a second longer airborne than you needed to.
As to FF: I don’t know you mate but I would just say that the majority of the guys/gals here appear to be beginners, I don’t mean that as a slight, we all were once, but you are not helping them at all by posting things like this;
“I am talking specifically about a twin engined jet with a contained engine failure or a shut down of one of the engines because of low oil pressure etc.
I may divert depending on distance to destination / landing weight issues / wx / airport facilities / engineering support. It is not a problem to get all hot under the collar about and in my book definately NOT a May Day.
That is the problem in the UK everything is a crisis.”
I hope someone in authority who knows you will convince you to spend some time back in training as a refresher before you continue to take unnecessary risks with other peoples lives and fail to take the opportunity to teach the new folks good airmanship. Rant over….
P.S. Halo – you obviously have been around a while and made excellent points. New folks re-read.
As to FF: I don’t know you mate but I would just say that the majority of the guys/gals here appear to be beginners, I don’t mean that as a slight, we all were once, but you are not helping them at all by posting things like this;
“I am talking specifically about a twin engined jet with a contained engine failure or a shut down of one of the engines because of low oil pressure etc.
I may divert depending on distance to destination / landing weight issues / wx / airport facilities / engineering support. It is not a problem to get all hot under the collar about and in my book definately NOT a May Day.
That is the problem in the UK everything is a crisis.”
I hope someone in authority who knows you will convince you to spend some time back in training as a refresher before you continue to take unnecessary risks with other peoples lives and fail to take the opportunity to teach the new folks good airmanship. Rant over….
P.S. Halo – you obviously have been around a while and made excellent points. New folks you could spend your time well and re-read.
It’s no good, I cant read any more without getting involved, simply because I or someone I love might be flying on one of your aircraft. I appreciate it’s not everyone but there can be no doubt that if you lose an eng and your down to your last then it is an emergency that warrants priority and if you don’t get it then you go formal and declare Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!!! God forbid anything else could go wrong with the other eng/gens etc working harder but if it did you would look a bit of an A**e if you had spent a second longer airborne than you needed to.
As to FF: I don’t know you mate but I would just say that the majority of the guys/gals here appear to be beginners, I don’t mean that as a slight, we all were once, but you are not helping them at all by posting things like this;
“I am talking specifically about a twin engined jet with a contained engine failure or a shut down of one of the engines because of low oil pressure etc.
I may divert depending on distance to destination / landing weight issues / wx / airport facilities / engineering support. It is not a problem to get all hot under the collar about and in my book definately NOT a May Day.
That is the problem in the UK everything is a crisis.”
I hope someone in authority who knows you will convince you to spend some time back in training as a refresher before you continue to take unnecessary risks with other peoples lives and fail to take the opportunity to teach the new folks good airmanship. Rant over….
P.S. Halo – you obviously have been around a while and made excellent points. New folks re-read.
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I have to agree with those who say that an engine shut down IS most definitely a Mayday - particularly if at the start of your duty day you were only issued with two.
I have no patience with those who pussy-foot around not wanting to bother or upset ATC, who say "I er - we have an engine out and would like, please to declare an emergency, if that's alright with you..."
For anyone who doesn't know, the standard format of a Mayday call is:-
"Mayday, mayday, mayday...
Station called
Call sign
Nature of the emergency
Intentions
(Present position)
(Pilot's qualifications if not clear from the type of flight)
(Souls on board total - so they know how many bodies to look for in the wreckage)
Request
Hence, for example, "Mayday, mayday, mayday, London, Birdseed 123A, engine failure in the climb, intend returning to Gatport, position 10 miles south of SFD flight level 110, request immediate vectors to the ILS"
If you are a tad busy killing the crocodile nearest the raft, it is acceptable to make a call just stating "Mayday, mayday, mayday <callsign>, standby", then get on with whatever you need to urgently, and then update ATC later.
Remember - you only have one life. If you don't tell ATC you have a problem, they won't know. They're not psychic.
If you still have any doubts? Remember what one instructor of mine told me many years ago - "If there's any doubt, then there's no doubt."
I have no patience with those who pussy-foot around not wanting to bother or upset ATC, who say "I er - we have an engine out and would like, please to declare an emergency, if that's alright with you..."
For anyone who doesn't know, the standard format of a Mayday call is:-
"Mayday, mayday, mayday...
Station called
Call sign
Nature of the emergency
Intentions
(Present position)
(Pilot's qualifications if not clear from the type of flight)
(Souls on board total - so they know how many bodies to look for in the wreckage)
Request
Hence, for example, "Mayday, mayday, mayday, London, Birdseed 123A, engine failure in the climb, intend returning to Gatport, position 10 miles south of SFD flight level 110, request immediate vectors to the ILS"
If you are a tad busy killing the crocodile nearest the raft, it is acceptable to make a call just stating "Mayday, mayday, mayday <callsign>, standby", then get on with whatever you need to urgently, and then update ATC later.
Remember - you only have one life. If you don't tell ATC you have a problem, they won't know. They're not psychic.
If you still have any doubts? Remember what one instructor of mine told me many years ago - "If there's any doubt, then there's no doubt."
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Bird on, your message has been removed for two reasons:-
a) Because it was extremely insulting to other posters here and
b) Because from the amount of nonsense you posted it was clear you are not a pilot except in your own imagination
Repeat the offence and you will be banned.
a) Because it was extremely insulting to other posters here and
b) Because from the amount of nonsense you posted it was clear you are not a pilot except in your own imagination
Repeat the offence and you will be banned.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 3rd Dec 2005 at 12:45.
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Flying Fiona, are you are real pilot? You certainly don't sound like one, unless it's MSFS or something...
Let's have a look at what happens when a twin engine jetliner loses an engine on departure
1) The aircraft cannot perform as it is designed to. It may be unlikely that it can climb anove 17,000-25,000ft, in which case its fuel consumption on ONE engine may be three times higher than on two working engines. The airspeed will be a lot lower, as will the ground speed, at lower altitude so it will take a lot longer to reach its destination, if the crew were dumb enough to think it wasn't important that an engine had failed.
2) The working engine would have to operate at abnormally high rotational speed and temperatures throughout the rest of the flight to provide enough thrust, and this would cause considerable wear and tear in a short period of time and possibly induce a second failure. Engines can operate at such settings but NOT for prolonged periods of time.
3) The dumb action to continue to the destination on one engine would put many people's lives at a huge risk for many reasons, also because each engine in a jet liner often independantly powers different parts of the electrical system etc... then the aircraft may lose electraulic/hydraulic REDUNDANCY as well, and parts of the system may fail to operate at all.
So basically, you need to grow up and stop talking for good before you have. It is clearly a dangerous emergency situation. And as for calling the English "alarmists" about such matters, try telling that to the utterly stupid British Airways crew who crossed the Atlantic on3 of their 747's 4 engines after one failed. With your ideas, you're more stupid than they are.
Let's have a look at what happens when a twin engine jetliner loses an engine on departure
1) The aircraft cannot perform as it is designed to. It may be unlikely that it can climb anove 17,000-25,000ft, in which case its fuel consumption on ONE engine may be three times higher than on two working engines. The airspeed will be a lot lower, as will the ground speed, at lower altitude so it will take a lot longer to reach its destination, if the crew were dumb enough to think it wasn't important that an engine had failed.
2) The working engine would have to operate at abnormally high rotational speed and temperatures throughout the rest of the flight to provide enough thrust, and this would cause considerable wear and tear in a short period of time and possibly induce a second failure. Engines can operate at such settings but NOT for prolonged periods of time.
3) The dumb action to continue to the destination on one engine would put many people's lives at a huge risk for many reasons, also because each engine in a jet liner often independantly powers different parts of the electrical system etc... then the aircraft may lose electraulic/hydraulic REDUNDANCY as well, and parts of the system may fail to operate at all.
So basically, you need to grow up and stop talking for good before you have. It is clearly a dangerous emergency situation. And as for calling the English "alarmists" about such matters, try telling that to the utterly stupid British Airways crew who crossed the Atlantic on3 of their 747's 4 engines after one failed. With your ideas, you're more stupid than they are.
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Well.. this has been an interesting post, fair to say that Flying Fiona and her followers (if any??) have been well and truly beaten on this one!
Just for the record.. what Flying Fiona says is cack.. don't know of any U.K operator that would approve such a view. Don't sit on your hands as she says.. a 737 in-cruise engine failure will flip you on your back quicker than you can get those hands back on that yoke, particularly disorientating at night (of course this is a dual channel A/P, different for triple axis A/Ps such as the 757/A320 family). From what I speak is not from my experience as I am 'inexperienced' on the 737, but from the valued opinions of extremely experienced LTC's, Line Captains etc.
I would suggest always declare a MAYDAY. First fly the f**ker, no point declaring a MAYDAY whilst flipping through 180 degrees is it.. the pax get really pissed off and the hosties won't be too pleased either
.
Any engine failure will require a drift down speed, drift down altitude (normally 25000' dependent on weight and other conditions), and of course MCT on the live (initially).. this is for all twin jets!!
Take the A/T out, best to keep A/P in although some PART B manuals will state to disengage A/P due to the abnormal speeds used (230 kts etc).
If your two crew (ie: other bod not in the crapper or chatting up the cabin crew), then the MAYDAY will come sooner due to work load, but remember back to basics: AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE, CHECKS, sounds cheesy but it's true. F. Fiona clearly is unaware of what she is talking about. Transatlantic/transpacific jets are commonly out there on their own with SELCAL as their only companion. You get a engine failure on NAT tracks you bloody well declare a MAYDAY, jets flying about too near for my liking.. offset 90 degrees fly for 30nm then regain track, descending to an appropriate FL. You have filed a flightplan.. with any engine failure you can no longer adhere to that.. it is imperative that a MAYDAY is called.
Start ups are generally not approved above 25000' (usual drift down altitude out of coincidence). Once you have the aircraft under control then by all means downgrade to a PAN, but not everybody in the world is aware of this term. Some of the places I fly to don't even know my callsign let alone the finer points of a PAN call. As for those on the ground not being able to help you.. well I know a lot about UK airports but funnily enough not a great deal about Egytian/Turkish airports. They can be a great help.. giving you frequencies for a divert, local weather, fire facilities available, approach aids, runway suitablility. Of course this stuff is in Jepps.. but if you can use them then do, ATC are there to help and will be more than willing to do so
For the record flying fiona.. all TC/LC and Line F/Os I have spoke to agree with the view I have stated, both those educated at state comprehensives and at private schools
Now go and speak (and listen) to some real pilots and see what the informed men and women have to say about this issue,
Safe flying people
747 Downind
Just for the record.. what Flying Fiona says is cack.. don't know of any U.K operator that would approve such a view. Don't sit on your hands as she says.. a 737 in-cruise engine failure will flip you on your back quicker than you can get those hands back on that yoke, particularly disorientating at night (of course this is a dual channel A/P, different for triple axis A/Ps such as the 757/A320 family). From what I speak is not from my experience as I am 'inexperienced' on the 737, but from the valued opinions of extremely experienced LTC's, Line Captains etc.
I would suggest always declare a MAYDAY. First fly the f**ker, no point declaring a MAYDAY whilst flipping through 180 degrees is it.. the pax get really pissed off and the hosties won't be too pleased either
. Any engine failure will require a drift down speed, drift down altitude (normally 25000' dependent on weight and other conditions), and of course MCT on the live (initially).. this is for all twin jets!!
Take the A/T out, best to keep A/P in although some PART B manuals will state to disengage A/P due to the abnormal speeds used (230 kts etc).
If your two crew (ie: other bod not in the crapper or chatting up the cabin crew), then the MAYDAY will come sooner due to work load, but remember back to basics: AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE, CHECKS, sounds cheesy but it's true. F. Fiona clearly is unaware of what she is talking about. Transatlantic/transpacific jets are commonly out there on their own with SELCAL as their only companion. You get a engine failure on NAT tracks you bloody well declare a MAYDAY, jets flying about too near for my liking.. offset 90 degrees fly for 30nm then regain track, descending to an appropriate FL. You have filed a flightplan.. with any engine failure you can no longer adhere to that.. it is imperative that a MAYDAY is called.
Start ups are generally not approved above 25000' (usual drift down altitude out of coincidence). Once you have the aircraft under control then by all means downgrade to a PAN, but not everybody in the world is aware of this term. Some of the places I fly to don't even know my callsign let alone the finer points of a PAN call. As for those on the ground not being able to help you.. well I know a lot about UK airports but funnily enough not a great deal about Egytian/Turkish airports. They can be a great help.. giving you frequencies for a divert, local weather, fire facilities available, approach aids, runway suitablility. Of course this stuff is in Jepps.. but if you can use them then do, ATC are there to help and will be more than willing to do so
For the record flying fiona.. all TC/LC and Line F/Os I have spoke to agree with the view I have stated, both those educated at state comprehensives and at private schools
Now go and speak (and listen) to some real pilots and see what the informed men and women have to say about this issue,
Safe flying people
747 Downind
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Mayday or not mayday
Hi guys
There's no need to fight about that one!
At the end of the day, this is captain's decision based on procedures, good old logic and airmanship. Then each and every situation has to be assessed.
If you feel you're in trouble to such an extent that you could not cope with the normal quality of AVIATE , NAVIGATE or COMMUNICATE thing... then you have to say it to the controller.
If you say the word MAYDAY followed by your identification and STANDBY, the consequence for you in the cockpit is that you know you have priority, that you don't have to communicate anymore before you are ready to do so and that whatever your flightpath, the controller will assist in clearing out the way as he can (and as he is able... note that the ability of the controller is not always to british standards...specially in AFRICA)
Now if you've got a situation where you need assistance for one of the persons on board, it can be for a crew member or whoever... if you CAN cope with a normal AVIATE, NAVIGATE and COMMUNICATE level then you must request priority and medical assistance for the problem concerned but you don't need normally a MAYDAY call for that.
We are working in a professional environment where we should attach ourselves to the best level of communications. This includes expressing clearly what the problem is and being confident in the professionalism of the controllers and guys on the ground and make them part of our Crew Resource Management loop as much as possible when necessary.
I'm sorry to see that some people on that forum don't have the professionalism to know what there place is in terms of respecting there fellow colleagues in that matter of confidence and communications. That agressive behaviour and arrogance is destroying the quality and credibility of our industry from the inside and we should all be very carefull about it.
On that note i wish you ALL (public school guys or not), a happy new year 2006 with happy landings not needing any MAYDAY
There's no need to fight about that one!
At the end of the day, this is captain's decision based on procedures, good old logic and airmanship. Then each and every situation has to be assessed.
If you feel you're in trouble to such an extent that you could not cope with the normal quality of AVIATE , NAVIGATE or COMMUNICATE thing... then you have to say it to the controller.
If you say the word MAYDAY followed by your identification and STANDBY, the consequence for you in the cockpit is that you know you have priority, that you don't have to communicate anymore before you are ready to do so and that whatever your flightpath, the controller will assist in clearing out the way as he can (and as he is able... note that the ability of the controller is not always to british standards...specially in AFRICA)
Now if you've got a situation where you need assistance for one of the persons on board, it can be for a crew member or whoever... if you CAN cope with a normal AVIATE, NAVIGATE and COMMUNICATE level then you must request priority and medical assistance for the problem concerned but you don't need normally a MAYDAY call for that.
We are working in a professional environment where we should attach ourselves to the best level of communications. This includes expressing clearly what the problem is and being confident in the professionalism of the controllers and guys on the ground and make them part of our Crew Resource Management loop as much as possible when necessary.
I'm sorry to see that some people on that forum don't have the professionalism to know what there place is in terms of respecting there fellow colleagues in that matter of confidence and communications. That agressive behaviour and arrogance is destroying the quality and credibility of our industry from the inside and we should all be very carefull about it.
On that note i wish you ALL (public school guys or not), a happy new year 2006 with happy landings not needing any MAYDAY
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Re: Mayday or not to mayday?
The decision whether to declare a Mayday or a Pan surely relates to the ICAO definitions of distress and urgency, namely:
a) Distress: a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency: a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
If it is the captain's judgement that he is in serious and imminent danger, he should transmit a Mayday call - QED.
Mel
a) Distress: a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency: a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
If it is the captain's judgement that he is in serious and imminent danger, he should transmit a Mayday call - QED.
Mel
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Re: Mayday or not to mayday?
Just a quick note, as I was beaten to the Aviate, navigate and communicate;
If you do not declare an emergency properly either by using PAN or MAYDAY, then you have in actual fact, no divine right to recieve a priority approach. This was tried for several years sucessfully by crews calling "low fuel, request priority approach". Thankfully people saw sense and now ATC will not issue a priority approach without a PAN in this circumstance.
If you do not use PAN or MAYDAY, you are in danger of not getting the message across to the people that can and will help you. Why are some civilian pilots so scared to use the words?? Surely it's not (as some of my cynical colleagues believe) just so that you do not have to do so much paperwork??
The phrases are there for a reason; use them. In busy airspace, with high R/T loading, the surest way to grab attention and to get other people to shut up is to use PAN or MAYDAY. You can always downgrade later if you get things back under control.
As for Ms FF - she is very naive and I am sure her colleagues must be very wary of her, especially considering previous posts about pulling sickies etc - not a good team player. - Or is she Phishing?
Icaarus - I understand where you are coming from; I am a civvy ATCO now, but have vast experience of flying in the military with REAL cockpit workload. Unfortunately, a lot of the younger people in aviation on either side of the mike do not have the depth of experience that a lot of the oldies do - either civil or military.
If you do not declare an emergency properly either by using PAN or MAYDAY, then you have in actual fact, no divine right to recieve a priority approach. This was tried for several years sucessfully by crews calling "low fuel, request priority approach". Thankfully people saw sense and now ATC will not issue a priority approach without a PAN in this circumstance.
If you do not use PAN or MAYDAY, you are in danger of not getting the message across to the people that can and will help you. Why are some civilian pilots so scared to use the words?? Surely it's not (as some of my cynical colleagues believe) just so that you do not have to do so much paperwork??
The phrases are there for a reason; use them. In busy airspace, with high R/T loading, the surest way to grab attention and to get other people to shut up is to use PAN or MAYDAY. You can always downgrade later if you get things back under control.
As for Ms FF - she is very naive and I am sure her colleagues must be very wary of her, especially considering previous posts about pulling sickies etc - not a good team player. - Or is she Phishing?
Icaarus - I understand where you are coming from; I am a civvy ATCO now, but have vast experience of flying in the military with REAL cockpit workload. Unfortunately, a lot of the younger people in aviation on either side of the mike do not have the depth of experience that a lot of the oldies do - either civil or military.
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Re: Mayday or not to mayday?
Think back over all the incidents and accidents over the years.
When I do, (25 years ish) I can not recall a single report where a crew was chastised for declaring an emergency that was subsequently deemed to have been over the top. However, I can definitely recall cases where an appropriate level of emergency was not declared by the crew.
In otherwords, the indications are that we are not saying mayday enough, rather than saying it too often.
(c) PB
When I do, (25 years ish) I can not recall a single report where a crew was chastised for declaring an emergency that was subsequently deemed to have been over the top. However, I can definitely recall cases where an appropriate level of emergency was not declared by the crew.
In otherwords, the indications are that we are not saying mayday enough, rather than saying it too often.
(c) PB
Re: Mayday or not to mayday?
Declaring a Mayday costs nothing, yet it brings many advantages to flight safety.
It's better to have it and not need it, as opposed to need it and not have it.
It's better to have it and not need it, as opposed to need it and not have it.
Re: Mayday or not to mayday?
For experts and non-experts alike, try this one for size.
Mid-December, twin engine, low level <1000' ASL, fire light comes on, fire drill carried out, fire light remains illuminated
Low cloud and icing - no icing clearance,blowing a gale, half way (almost exactly) between Hook of Holland and N. Foreland, too low for Tacan/VOR lock. FRCs say Land at FIRST SUITABLE landing site (NB NOT airfield, since we're a 'fling-wing').
There were further, somewhat complicating factors but just on the basis of the above .....
from the comfort of your armchairs, what say you??
Mid-December, twin engine, low level <1000' ASL, fire light comes on, fire drill carried out, fire light remains illuminated
Low cloud and icing - no icing clearance,blowing a gale, half way (almost exactly) between Hook of Holland and N. Foreland, too low for Tacan/VOR lock. FRCs say Land at FIRST SUITABLE landing site (NB NOT airfield, since we're a 'fling-wing'). There were further, somewhat complicating factors but just on the basis of the above .....
from the comfort of your armchairs, what say you??
