women in cockpit
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arelix posted 1st July 2005 15:02
On a lighter note... why not have a look at the Article/Test metioned by CAT1 in an earlier post.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feat...,937913,00.html
seems to explain a lot of the differences of opinion voiced here!
Do the test GQ and tell us your score
Me? 42/47
Only an occaisional VFR bod and only on Single Engine types...
I got 61/61 Male, 2nd WWar baby
Aviate 1138
On a lighter note... why not have a look at the Article/Test metioned by CAT1 in an earlier post.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feat...,937913,00.html
seems to explain a lot of the differences of opinion voiced here!
Do the test GQ and tell us your score
Me? 42/47
Only an occaisional VFR bod and only on Single Engine types...
I got 61/61 Male, 2nd WWar baby
Aviate 1138
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I'm female and a pilot.
Somedays are just so bad - I get oil over my hands, its just so revolting it makes me want to quit.
And sometimes I am expected to carry bags. Well if its over 8kg I refuse - normally I find some cute male passenger to do it for me.
I'll prolly get sick of it soon anyway.Then I'll stay home, make some babies and drink coffee.
Somedays are just so bad - I get oil over my hands, its just so revolting it makes me want to quit.
And sometimes I am expected to carry bags. Well if its over 8kg I refuse - normally I find some cute male passenger to do it for me.
I'll prolly get sick of it soon anyway.Then I'll stay home, make some babies and drink coffee.
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Heartless??
Great fun doing the test.
I got EQ 40 (hmm, never been one for visiting the loo in groups, but never really saw myself as a heartless b*tch)!
Got an SQ of 48, but then I like techie things (comes with the day job), but no use with plants and animals!
I did the Guardian quiz last week, comparing IQ and salary...seems I can now list myself in the heartless and underpaid category!!
Cheers GQ
(edited because I was never any good at tests...especially spelling tests)!
I got EQ 40 (hmm, never been one for visiting the loo in groups, but never really saw myself as a heartless b*tch)!
Got an SQ of 48, but then I like techie things (comes with the day job), but no use with plants and animals!
I did the Guardian quiz last week, comparing IQ and salary...seems I can now list myself in the heartless and underpaid category!!
Cheers GQ
(edited because I was never any good at tests...especially spelling tests)!
Last edited by GuinnessQueen; 4th Jul 2005 at 12:18.
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So....interesting that everyone who did the test scored above average SQ .
Probably to be expected(golfers excluded) of those involved in aviation.
Looking at the score notes in the quiz a high SQ is less common in females and so possibly explains the male/female ratio of pilots.
Just a thought.
Probably to be expected(golfers excluded) of those involved in aviation.
Looking at the score notes in the quiz a high SQ is less common in females and so possibly explains the male/female ratio of pilots.
Just a thought.
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Back to the original topic:
I flew with a female captain for 8 years, she was also my CPL and IFR teacher.
The most capable Pilot I ever met, always cool,calm and composed. When I made my captains rating, she supervised me - and she was able to cope with all the smaller and bigger problem that I developed during that time. Females in aviation ? Sure !
If, for whatever reason, she doesnīt WANT to fulfill her duties (Baggage, Preflight, etc) - sack her, if she CANīT - help her. (just like you would if your male mate has a sore back)
I flew with a female captain for 8 years, she was also my CPL and IFR teacher.
The most capable Pilot I ever met, always cool,calm and composed. When I made my captains rating, she supervised me - and she was able to cope with all the smaller and bigger problem that I developed during that time. Females in aviation ? Sure !
If, for whatever reason, she doesnīt WANT to fulfill her duties (Baggage, Preflight, etc) - sack her, if she CANīT - help her. (just like you would if your male mate has a sore back)
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I would like to point out a couple of facts and strip out some of the negative attitudes on this subject
Fact 1 - Men and Women are different. They are biologically different - That is not opinion that is a fact
Fact 2 - Men or Women can fly an aircraft from a to b
Fact 3 - There are far more men employed as pilots then there are women
Fact 4 - Differences between the sexes are not necessarily a bad thing and can actually be beneficial and complementary
If we are to believe the politically correct numbskulls who think that there is no difference between Men and Women then ask your doctor !
Women can fly, men can fly, both sexes have the same mental ability - BUT THEY ARE PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT, HAVE DIFFERENT HORMONES AND THAT IS NOT A BAD THING !!!!
Fact 1 - Men and Women are different. They are biologically different - That is not opinion that is a fact
Fact 2 - Men or Women can fly an aircraft from a to b
Fact 3 - There are far more men employed as pilots then there are women
Fact 4 - Differences between the sexes are not necessarily a bad thing and can actually be beneficial and complementary
If we are to believe the politically correct numbskulls who think that there is no difference between Men and Women then ask your doctor !
Women can fly, men can fly, both sexes have the same mental ability - BUT THEY ARE PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT, HAVE DIFFERENT HORMONES AND THAT IS NOT A BAD THING !!!!
Freight God
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Kind of reminds me that a woman has nothing to do on the flight deck...
... if she does not have that ID with her that qualifies her to be part of the crew.
Same goes for men, by the way...
... if she does not have that ID with her that qualifies her to be part of the crew.
Same goes for men, by the way...
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PilotBear - As I stated earlier they were back at the campfire cooking, cleaning, rearing Kids and fighting off intruders while we were on a lads day out in the forest hunting down some wild beasts and having a few beers. They have an obvious unfair multi-tasking advantage from evolution 
Men and women different? Gee, I hope that never changes. Viva la difference!
I offer the following as my personal views on the subject of stereotypes in general and of flying with other pilots of various backgrounds in particular. I do not intend to direct my comments to any individual in particular, but to everyone who wishes to operate in a crew environment with effective crew coordination and a clear conscience. If you disagree, that's fine. It's just my opinion. There is no definitive science relied upon. Just my personal observations, readings and world-view. And hopefully, a little practical common sense.
As to sharing the front office with females, I choose to judge them as I do with all other groups. As an individual! One person at a time, to the greatest extent practicable. Judging individual people based upon negative or positive assumptions about the group they belong to is common and maybe even instictive human behavior. Yet any attempt to predict a person's intentions, interests, capabilities or work ethic on the basis of their gender, ethnic or racial grouping is fraught with myriad negative consequences. First, you will often find out that the assumptions were wrong or did not apply to this individual. In addition, if you are found out by the individual to have negative pre-conceptions, you probably won't have their full support to say the least. Positive stereotypes are often deceptive and costly too since you may assume capabilities that are not really there. Lastly, you may find yourself placed in a group that is not held in very high regard by many of your cohorts. It's not just the PC police who will expose you. These days, the flying biz is more political than ever. An effective, if painful way to learn how it feels to be part of a less well regarded group. More importantly, you miss the opportunity to achieve the best results from your interaction with a fellow crewmember. This could be important to the outcome of a flight when the pressure is on.
Sure, some people are determined to live up to the stereotypes. And stereotypes usually have some real basis, even if only in half-truths. But being right only half the time isn't very impressive by any standard. As difficult as it is, as much effort as it requires, we must at least try to judge individuals on their own merit. One at a time. The attributes assigned to a group are collective in nature and may or may not indicate the attributes of an individual. Judge for yourself. Keep your mind open to your own objective observations as much as you are able. In this way, you can truly have a right to your opinions of other individuals whether harsh or charitable. We all judge other people every day. I just believe we should endeavor to do it in the way that we would want others to judge us. So much for the sermon!
I took that online test that was referred to earlier in this thread and quite predictably found it easy to manipulate the results as in most psych profile questionaires. Overly simplistic and therefore not valid. Anyone of average cognitive ability can see through the intent of each question. Too easy to steer the results toward a desired outcome and is therefore more telling regarding how you want to be seen than it is about how you really are. Oh well.
Best regards to all,
Westhawk
I offer the following as my personal views on the subject of stereotypes in general and of flying with other pilots of various backgrounds in particular. I do not intend to direct my comments to any individual in particular, but to everyone who wishes to operate in a crew environment with effective crew coordination and a clear conscience. If you disagree, that's fine. It's just my opinion. There is no definitive science relied upon. Just my personal observations, readings and world-view. And hopefully, a little practical common sense.
As to sharing the front office with females, I choose to judge them as I do with all other groups. As an individual! One person at a time, to the greatest extent practicable. Judging individual people based upon negative or positive assumptions about the group they belong to is common and maybe even instictive human behavior. Yet any attempt to predict a person's intentions, interests, capabilities or work ethic on the basis of their gender, ethnic or racial grouping is fraught with myriad negative consequences. First, you will often find out that the assumptions were wrong or did not apply to this individual. In addition, if you are found out by the individual to have negative pre-conceptions, you probably won't have their full support to say the least. Positive stereotypes are often deceptive and costly too since you may assume capabilities that are not really there. Lastly, you may find yourself placed in a group that is not held in very high regard by many of your cohorts. It's not just the PC police who will expose you. These days, the flying biz is more political than ever. An effective, if painful way to learn how it feels to be part of a less well regarded group. More importantly, you miss the opportunity to achieve the best results from your interaction with a fellow crewmember. This could be important to the outcome of a flight when the pressure is on.
Sure, some people are determined to live up to the stereotypes. And stereotypes usually have some real basis, even if only in half-truths. But being right only half the time isn't very impressive by any standard. As difficult as it is, as much effort as it requires, we must at least try to judge individuals on their own merit. One at a time. The attributes assigned to a group are collective in nature and may or may not indicate the attributes of an individual. Judge for yourself. Keep your mind open to your own objective observations as much as you are able. In this way, you can truly have a right to your opinions of other individuals whether harsh or charitable. We all judge other people every day. I just believe we should endeavor to do it in the way that we would want others to judge us. So much for the sermon!
I took that online test that was referred to earlier in this thread and quite predictably found it easy to manipulate the results as in most psych profile questionaires. Overly simplistic and therefore not valid. Anyone of average cognitive ability can see through the intent of each question. Too easy to steer the results toward a desired outcome and is therefore more telling regarding how you want to be seen than it is about how you really are. Oh well.
Best regards to all,
Westhawk
Last edited by westhawk; 16th Jul 2005 at 18:47.
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I used to fly with a female colleague known as 'VTOL girl' from the effects that the G forces had upon her already overburdened corsetry.
That was some time ago, though, and I believe that modern brassieres respond more appropriately to the stresses of flight than hithertofore.
Damn good flyer, though.
That was some time ago, though, and I believe that modern brassieres respond more appropriately to the stresses of flight than hithertofore.
Damn good flyer, though.
The poster who began this topic should expect that a pilot always does the walk around. He/she can change into a fresh shirt if necessary, and maybe spray on more cologne.
If a pilot wants the job, then be prepared to at least function as the FE or FO. But if unable to haul up some bags or whatever and the other pilot has time to go back and help, this is different. An attitude limitation is a problem for the FO to deal with-not yours, as the Captain. Was she forced into the profession (Beruf)? ...oder, selbstsuchtige Einstellung?
It is total horses**t (Pferdescheisse) to accept a job and try to avoid a walk-around or other duty which requires little physical strength except for moving the ailerons and the nosegear doors, only because of grease or de-icing fluid. Our planes with a wingspan of 93 feet, 4 inches, can drip lots of de-icing fluid onto Her Majesty's (Habsburg Maria Theresa's) crown. Some options :
1) wear a protective poncho like Clint Eastwood in a western film("Two Mules For...") or
2) simply quit the job.
I've never heard such complaints from the eight lady FOs (or one lady Captain) with whom I've worked, all very good pilots and the latest one had triplets (drei Buben) just two months ago
, and was a bit fatigued at the end of a four-day trip with about 16 legs already flown. At my company the ladies have too much professional pride to complain (sich beschweren?) about grease and fluids. They had each flown for about eight or ten years just to have some solid experience before they applied for the job: each flew various turboprops or turbofans (SF-340, B-1900, Lear, T-38, C-5...).
My only problem being with lady pilots is that they always look, sound and smell better than the guys. Schade, dass wir nicht.....
!
Learjetdriver-the aircraft we fly ARE fossils, but are in much better condition than "Oetzi".
If a pilot wants the job, then be prepared to at least function as the FE or FO. But if unable to haul up some bags or whatever and the other pilot has time to go back and help, this is different. An attitude limitation is a problem for the FO to deal with-not yours, as the Captain. Was she forced into the profession (Beruf)? ...oder, selbstsuchtige Einstellung?
It is total horses**t (Pferdescheisse) to accept a job and try to avoid a walk-around or other duty which requires little physical strength except for moving the ailerons and the nosegear doors, only because of grease or de-icing fluid. Our planes with a wingspan of 93 feet, 4 inches, can drip lots of de-icing fluid onto Her Majesty's (Habsburg Maria Theresa's) crown. Some options :
1) wear a protective poncho like Clint Eastwood in a western film("Two Mules For...") or
2) simply quit the job.
I've never heard such complaints from the eight lady FOs (or one lady Captain) with whom I've worked, all very good pilots and the latest one had triplets (drei Buben) just two months ago
, and was a bit fatigued at the end of a four-day trip with about 16 legs already flown. At my company the ladies have too much professional pride to complain (sich beschweren?) about grease and fluids. They had each flown for about eight or ten years just to have some solid experience before they applied for the job: each flew various turboprops or turbofans (SF-340, B-1900, Lear, T-38, C-5...).My only problem being with lady pilots is that they always look, sound and smell better than the guys. Schade, dass wir nicht.....
!Learjetdriver-the aircraft we fly ARE fossils, but are in much better condition than "Oetzi".
Last edited by Ignition Override; 7th Sep 2005 at 05:17.
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The differences between male and female brains are sort of subtle and subject to a lot of individual variation, so that I don't think it's really useful to assume that everyone of a particular gender will have such a typical brain.
In Nigeria you get the same thing but with race being put into the equation, as if Africans are grossly different from Europeans. In both cases you can probably identify subtle differences using very fine testing procedures, but in everyday life, given that someone has been selected and trained as a pilot I think it's safe to assume a standard set of responses to standard situations.
The main problem I have had, usually with fellow males, is refusal to use said brain at all! Otherwise, given CRM, one can work around the variations between oneself and others and manage to get the job done within limits.
I have had to work with people with a crap attitude, refusing to do various tasks that are just part of the job, but gender and/or race had nothing to do with it.
The only thing is that, nowadays, I think a white male has to be real careful about not exhibiting 'insensitivity' since that is grounds for an automatic 'interview without coffee.'
In Nigeria you get the same thing but with race being put into the equation, as if Africans are grossly different from Europeans. In both cases you can probably identify subtle differences using very fine testing procedures, but in everyday life, given that someone has been selected and trained as a pilot I think it's safe to assume a standard set of responses to standard situations.
The main problem I have had, usually with fellow males, is refusal to use said brain at all! Otherwise, given CRM, one can work around the variations between oneself and others and manage to get the job done within limits.
I have had to work with people with a crap attitude, refusing to do various tasks that are just part of the job, but gender and/or race had nothing to do with it.
The only thing is that, nowadays, I think a white male has to be real careful about not exhibiting 'insensitivity' since that is grounds for an automatic 'interview without coffee.'
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42/55. Male
Always enjoyed flying with lady pilots, some of them tell better jokes/tell jokes better than the blokes! Certainly true that they will try twice as hard to be as good, unfortunately that is the way the system runs at the moment, when the numbers of lady pilots are much much bigger things should change.
Always enjoyed flying with lady pilots, some of them tell better jokes/tell jokes better than the blokes! Certainly true that they will try twice as hard to be as good, unfortunately that is the way the system runs at the moment, when the numbers of lady pilots are much much bigger things should change.
Swish266,
So, after the flight you had a debrief, calmly discussed the issue of her being late, and suggested ways for her to improve her time management skills right? That is what a good captain/FO would have done.
1. One never gets ready for the cockpit prep more than 10 min befor sched. As a result on every single flight I did wit her in d last 18 months we were late and I had to cover for her... (stupid of me - diff treatment, eh). She normally does excellent in the sim - so good at checklists and proc - but rarely stays ahead of whats goin on in real life...
Here are some new observations.
I just asked my partner pilot on this 2-day trip about the extra help that lady pilots receive at a certain regional which puts new-hires (some with very little experience, results of the policy by which there is zero pay during training) in the CRJ. He told me that it is natural to go out of the way to help them, even with the same backgrounds as the guys. He instructed in the T-38, now in the C-5 Galaxy widebody (the crew will take their 9mm pistols on a trip this weekend to NAS New Orleans).
But the young guys at that company often don't receive this extra training, and get fired by the Chief Pilot, I suppose, because they are only guys. The son of one of our Captains was recently fired (this might destroy one's self-confidence for a while). Is this policy not corporate bias? There are apparently NO court-ordered quotas as happened in the 90s at United. Our Lead Flight attendant on a previous trip is married to an IP there. Why can't the young men receive a good bit of extra training also, within the same limits of simulator or preparation for an oral exam? One's first fast-paced, FMC syllabus can severely challenge those with 10,000 hours-but how about with only 500-1,000 hours??
I just asked my partner pilot on this 2-day trip about the extra help that lady pilots receive at a certain regional which puts new-hires (some with very little experience, results of the policy by which there is zero pay during training) in the CRJ. He told me that it is natural to go out of the way to help them, even with the same backgrounds as the guys. He instructed in the T-38, now in the C-5 Galaxy widebody (the crew will take their 9mm pistols on a trip this weekend to NAS New Orleans).
But the young guys at that company often don't receive this extra training, and get fired by the Chief Pilot, I suppose, because they are only guys. The son of one of our Captains was recently fired (this might destroy one's self-confidence for a while). Is this policy not corporate bias? There are apparently NO court-ordered quotas as happened in the 90s at United. Our Lead Flight attendant on a previous trip is married to an IP there. Why can't the young men receive a good bit of extra training also, within the same limits of simulator or preparation for an oral exam? One's first fast-paced, FMC syllabus can severely challenge those with 10,000 hours-but how about with only 500-1,000 hours??