Pilot Briefings (Airbus & Boeing)
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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OK, gents, order...
Your input taken ad notam, and as many of you suggest - the briefing does not pan out like I suggested 90% of the time. This for various reasons, like a) crew familiarity ad nauseam b) emerg brief completed on 1st sector c) WX, NOTAM & MEL discussed in briefing room etc. etc. etc.
However, airfranz - we both listened to the ATIS, clearance & saw the M&B sheet - so why brief at all? This is not to have a go at people who advocate short briefings, this is a genuine question
- what is the point, since we all saw, heard & agreed on the relevant stuff. All companies know that - all pilots know that. So there must be some other reason than "filling in the chap in the seat next to you" - because he or she already knows - after all, not that many pilots are deaf, blind, stupid or all of the above at any one time 
I feel some people might put their habits & percieved ideals over crew co-ordination in this matter - thorough briefings are seen as boring (uh-oh - we are not entertaining eachother, we must be doing something wrong
) - for f*cks sake - you're sitting on ya a*s there, waiting for the SLF to get their b*tts in their allocated seats - what do you want to spend the time on??? Doing the sudoku? Ya got 3 hrs cruise to do that, mate! Point is, we all know what's gong to happen - now we fulfill our duty to make sure that the crew is coordinated. If that really bores the backside out of you - you can signal that to me by not participating when prompted in the brief, so we can adopt the briefing style to something that will keep you awake. I know that everybody 98% of the time would do OK on "HON1Y, no emerg turn, speeds & stab to go" - I just want to avoid the embarrassment the remaining 2% of the time.
If something goes wrong, there is no doubt about on whos' shoulders the chips are gonna land. I do not suggest that doing a comprehensive brief goes all the way to solving the problem - but I do suggest that you might save a bit of the day some of the time. If I have to weigh that against the horrible risk of setting a standard on the flightdeck & maybe making the other bloke aware of his diposition to keeping it to the minimum we usually can get away with - then so be it.
CRM is - among other things - about adapting your style to fit the circumstances, it is not about keeping eachother happy all the time. If I see any evidence that the brieinfg style is detrimental to crew co-operation, there would normally be an underlying problem that needs uncovering. Likewise, I'd expect to hear from the guy or gal next to me if I didn't pick up the signs that it bothered them.
However, I still have to see evidence of any accident or incident that resulted from too much crew co-ordination. Gonso is right - nobody but you & your mate would know. However, if the fit hit the shan, would you have the spine to stand up to the DFO and say, "Sorry, sir, it had nothing to do with incompetence, we simply did not prepare well enough"? Or will the company end up having to put it down to, "OK, the guys had a bit of a bad day"? Its about professionalism - do right or don't do it at all.
Rananim, the errors comitted during seldomly performed tasks (like 2 NDB approach with circling) are quite different from the errors comitted during everyday operation. Therefore, if you basically know how to do the procedure & are competent to do so, chances are that you will do quite well - because you know that you're up against a challenge, you are already alert. My example was - for that exact reason - drawn from everyday, mundane operations. I have a feeling that is where the minor (non-catastrophic) fcuk-ups are made - but they can curtail your career all the same. I do not think I advocated briefing without thinking about what you say, nor did I advocate anything but active listening. Is it that hard to be both thorough, varied within reason, actively communicating & attentive at the same time?
Airfranz has it absolutely right, that briefing covers it all, however, brifing SID during taxi is somewhat against my religious beliefs
I am still waiting to fly for a company that includes in its SOP the phrase:
- the quick bit did not make the last revision, methinks. Use the necessary time to do the job or create the necssary time. Adapt to the situation - but do it right, that will cover the "timely" part of your list of priorities. The "quick" part of it is not part of my priorities, but then again, we have the luxury of 40-50 min. turnarounds - I am fully aware that it's not easy to turn a 73' or 320 in 25 min. and do the entire rigmarole - but 2 min. 30 sec. for the first sector of the day??? Is that really so taxing? Obviously it must be... (no offence implied).
Brgds
Empty
PS - ModBods, might this thread be ready for xfer to Safety, CRM & QA?
Your input taken ad notam, and as many of you suggest - the briefing does not pan out like I suggested 90% of the time. This for various reasons, like a) crew familiarity ad nauseam b) emerg brief completed on 1st sector c) WX, NOTAM & MEL discussed in briefing room etc. etc. etc.
However, airfranz - we both listened to the ATIS, clearance & saw the M&B sheet - so why brief at all? This is not to have a go at people who advocate short briefings, this is a genuine question
- what is the point, since we all saw, heard & agreed on the relevant stuff. All companies know that - all pilots know that. So there must be some other reason than "filling in the chap in the seat next to you" - because he or she already knows - after all, not that many pilots are deaf, blind, stupid or all of the above at any one time I feel some people might put their habits & percieved ideals over crew co-ordination in this matter - thorough briefings are seen as boring (uh-oh - we are not entertaining eachother, we must be doing something wrong
) - for f*cks sake - you're sitting on ya a*s there, waiting for the SLF to get their b*tts in their allocated seats - what do you want to spend the time on??? Doing the sudoku? Ya got 3 hrs cruise to do that, mate! Point is, we all know what's gong to happen - now we fulfill our duty to make sure that the crew is coordinated. If that really bores the backside out of you - you can signal that to me by not participating when prompted in the brief, so we can adopt the briefing style to something that will keep you awake. I know that everybody 98% of the time would do OK on "HON1Y, no emerg turn, speeds & stab to go" - I just want to avoid the embarrassment the remaining 2% of the time.If something goes wrong, there is no doubt about on whos' shoulders the chips are gonna land. I do not suggest that doing a comprehensive brief goes all the way to solving the problem - but I do suggest that you might save a bit of the day some of the time. If I have to weigh that against the horrible risk of setting a standard on the flightdeck & maybe making the other bloke aware of his diposition to keeping it to the minimum we usually can get away with - then so be it.
CRM is - among other things - about adapting your style to fit the circumstances, it is not about keeping eachother happy all the time. If I see any evidence that the brieinfg style is detrimental to crew co-operation, there would normally be an underlying problem that needs uncovering. Likewise, I'd expect to hear from the guy or gal next to me if I didn't pick up the signs that it bothered them.
However, I still have to see evidence of any accident or incident that resulted from too much crew co-ordination. Gonso is right - nobody but you & your mate would know. However, if the fit hit the shan, would you have the spine to stand up to the DFO and say, "Sorry, sir, it had nothing to do with incompetence, we simply did not prepare well enough"? Or will the company end up having to put it down to, "OK, the guys had a bit of a bad day"? Its about professionalism - do right or don't do it at all.
Rananim, the errors comitted during seldomly performed tasks (like 2 NDB approach with circling) are quite different from the errors comitted during everyday operation. Therefore, if you basically know how to do the procedure & are competent to do so, chances are that you will do quite well - because you know that you're up against a challenge, you are already alert. My example was - for that exact reason - drawn from everyday, mundane operations. I have a feeling that is where the minor (non-catastrophic) fcuk-ups are made - but they can curtail your career all the same. I do not think I advocated briefing without thinking about what you say, nor did I advocate anything but active listening. Is it that hard to be both thorough, varied within reason, actively communicating & attentive at the same time?
Airfranz has it absolutely right, that briefing covers it all, however, brifing SID during taxi is somewhat against my religious beliefs
I am still waiting to fly for a company that includes in its SOP the phrase:
you have to go over the relevant points in a quick and timely fashion
Brgds
Empty
PS - ModBods, might this thread be ready for xfer to Safety, CRM & QA?
Last edited by Empty Cruise; 9th Jun 2005 at 15:25.
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Empty Cruise, that is definitely not a brief, that is a lesson. Your oppo will be lost after the third or fourth item. Are you seriously telling us that you go through that speil every day you fly? Please tell me that is not the case. Brief means, brief, keep it as short as you possible can. If your SOPs cover all that you have said then just say that you will stick to SOPs. Spare yourself and us from the drivel!
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Rubik101,
Yes, I merely follow the SOP on this one. However, I have no grudge with the way the SOP tells me to do the "drivel" that you encourage me to spare myself and you from
I somehow feel that people in here have less against our SOP than against my agreeing with them
Brgds,
Empty
Yes, I merely follow the SOP on this one. However, I have no grudge with the way the SOP tells me to do the "drivel" that you encourage me to spare myself and you from
I somehow feel that people in here have less against our SOP than against my agreeing with them
Brgds,
Empty
For approach briefings I usually work more or less from top (of descent) to bottom:
- minimum safe altitudes
- relevant terrain features, obstacles, prohibited/danger area's, and weather
- relevant courses, beacons, speed and altitude restrictions
- initial approach altitude, final approach course, FAP, nonstandard glidepath angle, vertical speed for non-precision approaches
- recap of CAT II/III procedures if applicable
- (M)DA and threshold elevation
- landing flaps, autobrakes, manual or automatic landing, idle reverse if applicable
- runway exit to aim for
- noticable runway features (displaced threshold, runway slope, slippery spots, nonstandard approach lights)
Then up again (in case of go-around):
- missed approach point
- missed approach path
- relevant terrain, obstacles, prohibited/danger area's, and weather
Then taxi to the gate:
- taxi route, parking stand number
- relevant WIP
- anything noticable about parking guidance, APU use, marshalling procedures, etc.
And finally a recap of NAV setup, aircraft technical deficiencies, NOTAMs , and weather (all may be included earlier if relevant). "Questions?"
Notice how I littered this list with phrases like "if applicable", "if relevant", "noticable", and "nonstandard". Most of the times several of these items may be omitted and for standard situations that are well known by all crewmembers a short summary will often be sufficient ("standard LHR 27L, flaps 40, autobrakes 3, manual").
To me, truly anal crewbriefings like the Empty Cruise examples above are about as useful as ATIS transmissions in Russian. They obfuscate rather than affirm the planned course of action - definitely not a sign of good CRM, if you ask me.
- minimum safe altitudes
- relevant terrain features, obstacles, prohibited/danger area's, and weather
- relevant courses, beacons, speed and altitude restrictions
- initial approach altitude, final approach course, FAP, nonstandard glidepath angle, vertical speed for non-precision approaches
- recap of CAT II/III procedures if applicable
- (M)DA and threshold elevation
- landing flaps, autobrakes, manual or automatic landing, idle reverse if applicable
- runway exit to aim for
- noticable runway features (displaced threshold, runway slope, slippery spots, nonstandard approach lights)
Then up again (in case of go-around):
- missed approach point
- missed approach path
- relevant terrain, obstacles, prohibited/danger area's, and weather
Then taxi to the gate:
- taxi route, parking stand number
- relevant WIP
- anything noticable about parking guidance, APU use, marshalling procedures, etc.
And finally a recap of NAV setup, aircraft technical deficiencies, NOTAMs , and weather (all may be included earlier if relevant). "Questions?"
Notice how I littered this list with phrases like "if applicable", "if relevant", "noticable", and "nonstandard". Most of the times several of these items may be omitted and for standard situations that are well known by all crewmembers a short summary will often be sufficient ("standard LHR 27L, flaps 40, autobrakes 3, manual").
To me, truly anal crewbriefings like the Empty Cruise examples above are about as useful as ATIS transmissions in Russian. They obfuscate rather than affirm the planned course of action - definitely not a sign of good CRM, if you ask me.
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It never stops to amaze me that still, a lot of airlines do briefings while taxying out. This time is for LOOKING-OUT in my opinion. Remember that the taxy-phase is a critical flight fase. All briefings should be completed on stand. If you are not able to, it means that you are rushed and thus not in an ideal situation to start a flight.
How many accidents have been caused by the "rushed" factor.
There should be more emphasis on this during CRM, but alas, with some airline's 25min. turnarounds, being rushed has become SOP.
Just my opinion though, and I'm known to be a rebel
How many accidents have been caused by the "rushed" factor.
There should be more emphasis on this during CRM, but alas, with some airline's 25min. turnarounds, being rushed has become SOP.
Just my opinion though, and I'm known to be a rebel
Avibridge
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After many years working with an Asian carrier (Chinese pilots) I found the best approach briefing was to ask the PNF what he/she was going to do when one of the crew shouted out GA! Company SOP called for very strict approach limits after GS capture or FAF/FAP. The slightest deviation form any of the prescribed perameters called for an immediate GA.
The penalty for failng to GA for the PF was worse than the penalty for infringing any of the limits.
How did the company know PF had crossed a limit? FODAS pulled for every flight and a copy in the Chief Pilot's Office before crew transport arrived at OPS.
Everything else was well and truly memorised (Mesmorised?)
Truth is often stranger..........
The penalty for failng to GA for the PF was worse than the penalty for infringing any of the limits.
How did the company know PF had crossed a limit? FODAS pulled for every flight and a copy in the Chief Pilot's Office before crew transport arrived at OPS.
Everything else was well and truly memorised (Mesmorised?)
Truth is often stranger..........
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C,N,B.
Configuration/Navigation/Buggeration.
copyrighted by me.
Gonso, you afm should contain the necessary info on your cvr. 738 is anytime there is a/c pwr to the cockpit.
Configuration/Navigation/Buggeration.
copyrighted by me.
Gonso, you afm should contain the necessary info on your cvr. 738 is anytime there is a/c pwr to the cockpit.
In another life I was a contract pilot with a German 737 operator. Very meticulous are Germans. At Hamburg there was fog and our departure stand was relatively close to the departure runway. The airline had an enormously long take off safety briefing requirement laid down in the Ops Manual which had to be done during taxying.
Situation with low vis was that I decided to get the copilot to give his safety brief (his leg) before engine start instead of when crawling along the taxiway in fog.
He objected saying this was not SOP. I fully agreed with the latter but pointed out the factors involved with taxying in low vis.
Grumbling into his beard he went ahead with this long winded standard briefing which took a normal three minutes. We started engines and commenced to edge towards the departure runway carefully watching out for wing tips and tractors in the fog.
As he read the before take off checklist to which I responded, he stopped at the item called "Briefing". I looked at him and said "Reviewed".
"No, no, no" he said. "I give you the briefing now"
I said what are you on about? - you have already given the briefing a few minutes ago.
"Ah" he said. "That was a non-standard briefing which was done before engine start" "I now give you the proper briefing as per SOP to be done while taxying".
And to my astonishment he went ahead and repeated the before take off safety brief word for word in between ATC clearances, Before Take Off checks and purser putting his head around the door to say all OK down the back.
Flight safety meant nothing to that character because as far as he was concerned the world revolved around strict adherence to company SOP. And to think he is probably a 747 captain by now.
Situation with low vis was that I decided to get the copilot to give his safety brief (his leg) before engine start instead of when crawling along the taxiway in fog.
He objected saying this was not SOP. I fully agreed with the latter but pointed out the factors involved with taxying in low vis.
Grumbling into his beard he went ahead with this long winded standard briefing which took a normal three minutes. We started engines and commenced to edge towards the departure runway carefully watching out for wing tips and tractors in the fog.
As he read the before take off checklist to which I responded, he stopped at the item called "Briefing". I looked at him and said "Reviewed".
"No, no, no" he said. "I give you the briefing now"
I said what are you on about? - you have already given the briefing a few minutes ago.
"Ah" he said. "That was a non-standard briefing which was done before engine start" "I now give you the proper briefing as per SOP to be done while taxying".
And to my astonishment he went ahead and repeated the before take off safety brief word for word in between ATC clearances, Before Take Off checks and purser putting his head around the door to say all OK down the back.
Flight safety meant nothing to that character because as far as he was concerned the world revolved around strict adherence to company SOP. And to think he is probably a 747 captain by now.
As a PPL and a SLF I'm amazed that people think a 3 min briefing is too long in a complicated aircraft as the ones you guys fly.
I'd feel safer flying with "Empty Cruise" than some cowboy.
I, all alone in my 30 year old dead-simple PA28 brief myself for 1½ minute before takeoff.
It is well known that things you've just said to yourself will be remembered much better.
This makes me think about the cockpit recording of the crew that had forgotten to deploy flaps / spoilers before takeoff and went right off the runway, all died. There was a stewardess or two on jumpseats. You could hear them chatting about kids, gardens, schools and other trivia all the way from the gate and well into the takeoff run.
I'd feel safer flying with "Empty Cruise" than some cowboy.
I, all alone in my 30 year old dead-simple PA28 brief myself for 1½ minute before takeoff.
It is well known that things you've just said to yourself will be remembered much better.
This makes me think about the cockpit recording of the crew that had forgotten to deploy flaps / spoilers before takeoff and went right off the runway, all died. There was a stewardess or two on jumpseats. You could hear them chatting about kids, gardens, schools and other trivia all the way from the gate and well into the takeoff run.
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I'm in complete agreement with boofhead that the essential component of the word 'briefing' is BRIEF.
Briefings are essential in highlighting specific criteria applicable to this flight which differ from the everyday standard routine. A sound briefing is a 'contract' and agreement between the operating crew how this flight will be conducted. Those who would drone on and on retelling SOPs and half of the Operations Manual only serve to bury the essential items pertinent to this flight which must be clearly understood.
My pet hate is those briefings of expected Taxy routes, SIds, STARs etc, where the words we will are used instead of the words we expect. And guess where 50% of the "we will" briefers go, even after a differing ATC instruction - exactly where they briefed.
Time I had another Valium.
Regards,
Old Smokey
Briefings are essential in highlighting specific criteria applicable to this flight which differ from the everyday standard routine. A sound briefing is a 'contract' and agreement between the operating crew how this flight will be conducted. Those who would drone on and on retelling SOPs and half of the Operations Manual only serve to bury the essential items pertinent to this flight which must be clearly understood.
My pet hate is those briefings of expected Taxy routes, SIds, STARs etc, where the words we will are used instead of the words we expect. And guess where 50% of the "we will" briefers go, even after a differing ATC instruction - exactly where they briefed.
Time I had another Valium.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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safety
Doesnt the phrase 'better safe than sorry' say it all...
I am aware i dont know everything but it would seem logical when dealing with peoples lives, best to cover all bases...
I am a CPL and bach Aviation student; the number of accidents and incidents that we have been informed about because of simple mis- communication is outstanding ...
747 Bangkok overrun 1999 QF1 comes to mind... and to think if a prior indepth full landing breifing had of taken place they MAY have picked up on the ' in the event of a go-round this is what will happen' . obviously the correct thing didnt... from memory i think it was if they had of landed correctly, followed correct procedure and had no human error component they would overrun by 8 m....
Isnt the purpose of a breif to be ready for 'ANY' situation... The way off; short breif or risking lives? if people think flying is dangerous why fly, it controdicts the point of transport, i would rather be in the bussiness of saving lives, than risking them. a breifing can never be to long...
remmeber the 6 p's...
prior
preperation
prevents
piss
poor
performance
I am aware i dont know everything but it would seem logical when dealing with peoples lives, best to cover all bases...
I am a CPL and bach Aviation student; the number of accidents and incidents that we have been informed about because of simple mis- communication is outstanding ...
747 Bangkok overrun 1999 QF1 comes to mind... and to think if a prior indepth full landing breifing had of taken place they MAY have picked up on the ' in the event of a go-round this is what will happen' . obviously the correct thing didnt... from memory i think it was if they had of landed correctly, followed correct procedure and had no human error component they would overrun by 8 m....
Isnt the purpose of a breif to be ready for 'ANY' situation... The way off; short breif or risking lives? if people think flying is dangerous why fly, it controdicts the point of transport, i would rather be in the bussiness of saving lives, than risking them. a breifing can never be to long...
remmeber the 6 p's...
prior
preperation
prevents
piss
poor
performance
D-P,
"Isnt the purpose of a breif to be ready for 'ANY' situation..."
So if if I understand you correctly, we better have a "quick" review of every abnormal checklist, (probably about 200 on my aircraft) and also better have a quick look at every SID, just in case. And don't forget lets have a look at all the different combinations of taxi routes we might get. (AT CDG we might just need a few hours here).
These forums seem to be taken over by people who have never experienced day to day ops on the line, but have a knack of preaching the righteous way. It might be an idea to tone your posts to reflect your experience or lack of it.
"Isnt the purpose of a breif to be ready for 'ANY' situation..."
So if if I understand you correctly, we better have a "quick" review of every abnormal checklist, (probably about 200 on my aircraft) and also better have a quick look at every SID, just in case. And don't forget lets have a look at all the different combinations of taxi routes we might get. (AT CDG we might just need a few hours here).
These forums seem to be taken over by people who have never experienced day to day ops on the line, but have a knack of preaching the righteous way. It might be an idea to tone your posts to reflect your experience or lack of it.
Brief what's unique to the departure/arrival as appropraite.
E.g. lets say there is an emergency turn to follow in the event of engine failure after V1. In my book to brief but omit to mention the ET is about 2 out of 10 - say nothing but mention the ET is about 8 out of 10.
If you drone on for hours about stuff that is "standard" then fellow crew members just switch off. In certain instances it is quite appropriate to say "Standard Brief for RW 24L at MAN..etc" but at other times a more comprehensive brief would be necessary.
E.g. lets say there is an emergency turn to follow in the event of engine failure after V1. In my book to brief but omit to mention the ET is about 2 out of 10 - say nothing but mention the ET is about 8 out of 10.
If you drone on for hours about stuff that is "standard" then fellow crew members just switch off. In certain instances it is quite appropriate to say "Standard Brief for RW 24L at MAN..etc" but at other times a more comprehensive brief would be necessary.
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yes granted you may not see eye to eye on some of my ideas, but thats my opinion, as i said before.. the 6 p's
p.s. the deadly 5 attitudes in aviation - AIMIR
Anti- authority - the rules are for someone else
Impulisiveness - i need to do this now
Macho - i can do anything
Invulnerabitlity - it wont happen to me
Resignation - i cant do anything else.
gee i dont see some of these in this forum??
p.s. the deadly 5 attitudes in aviation - AIMIR
Anti- authority - the rules are for someone else
Impulisiveness - i need to do this now
Macho - i can do anything
Invulnerabitlity - it wont happen to me
Resignation - i cant do anything else.
gee i dont see some of these in this forum??
Last edited by dr_pecka; 24th Jun 2005 at 07:27.
For Empty Cruise and Downwind. You might be "pulling our legs".
If most of these are briefed (airborne) on each and every leg, then you folks are not in an older, two-person c0ckp1t, you have automation, and you only fly one, possibly two legs per day, and rarely deviate around thunderstorms, or at least not in airspace with dense traffic.
They are not very busy, multiple short legs in dense airspace. You would probably miss two radio calls during the in-flight brief, unless delivered like a machine gun. I can't imagine that either Fleet Captains or Fleet Training Captains would require most of this on each leg, unless there is a totally new situation and one (extra Captain of FO) crew member was sleeping somewhere. Possibly those gentleman who create such company procedures are out of touch with real flying, and need to avoid flying a desk for months on end.
Even if a pilot were brand-new on the airplane, it still looks like gross overkill. Which items are the MOST important, other than basic numbers for an instrument approach?
The US has at least ONE very specialized approach (requires special sim. training once per year on the 757), and that is into Eagle, Colorado (EGE)-never mind Juneau Alaska and certain other colorado and Montana airports- Salt Lake Center asked during my first descent (at night) towards Kalispell, MT, whether we would like to do the VOR to a circling approach!!. We thought the guy was nuts
...or possibly "pulling our chain"-we were in IMC until on final, with a "black hole effect". Luckily there was no unforecast snow on the runway or fog, which can easily happen (no alternate fuel to climb back over the mountains! 
). I gave a simple plan for the procedure turn at Kalispell, stating that 180 knots is a simple 3 miles per minute. There are many detailed, explicit written procedures at Eagle which must be read to the other pilot. No other normal approach could possibly require a very long detailed speech. EGE has various groups of procedures, done block by block. 
I was on a B-727 jumpseat of a very well-known cargo airline about nine years ago and the Captain must have been (+ just a bit impressed with himself
) quite new in his seat. He gave a takeoff briefing which included not only the wind and altimeter setting, but numerous other dry facts and figures. The strange thing was that the weather/winds were fair, with no MELs to affect takeoff/abort/landing. I was not sure what was different about the upcoming takeoff (neither weather nor terrain/towers on departure path or downwind, as in MDT, BHM etc), or what really mattered to the guy, other than a successful abort if needed, or a return to a runway with suitable length and winds, having an operative, good instrument approach as back-up.
If most of these are briefed (airborne) on each and every leg, then you folks are not in an older, two-person c0ckp1t, you have automation, and you only fly one, possibly two legs per day, and rarely deviate around thunderstorms, or at least not in airspace with dense traffic.
They are not very busy, multiple short legs in dense airspace. You would probably miss two radio calls during the in-flight brief, unless delivered like a machine gun. I can't imagine that either Fleet Captains or Fleet Training Captains would require most of this on each leg, unless there is a totally new situation and one (extra Captain of FO) crew member was sleeping somewhere. Possibly those gentleman who create such company procedures are out of touch with real flying, and need to avoid flying a desk for months on end.
Even if a pilot were brand-new on the airplane, it still looks like gross overkill. Which items are the MOST important, other than basic numbers for an instrument approach?
The US has at least ONE very specialized approach (requires special sim. training once per year on the 757), and that is into Eagle, Colorado (EGE)-never mind Juneau Alaska and certain other colorado and Montana airports- Salt Lake Center asked during my first descent (at night) towards Kalispell, MT, whether we would like to do the VOR to a circling approach!!. We thought the guy was nuts
...or possibly "pulling our chain"-we were in IMC until on final, with a "black hole effect". Luckily there was no unforecast snow on the runway or fog, which can easily happen (no alternate fuel to climb back over the mountains! ). I gave a simple plan for the procedure turn at Kalispell, stating that 180 knots is a simple 3 miles per minute. There are many detailed, explicit written procedures at Eagle which must be read to the other pilot. No other normal approach could possibly require a very long detailed speech. EGE has various groups of procedures, done block by block. I was on a B-727 jumpseat of a very well-known cargo airline about nine years ago and the Captain must have been (+ just a bit impressed with himself
) quite new in his seat. He gave a takeoff briefing which included not only the wind and altimeter setting, but numerous other dry facts and figures. The strange thing was that the weather/winds were fair, with no MELs to affect takeoff/abort/landing. I was not sure what was different about the upcoming takeoff (neither weather nor terrain/towers on departure path or downwind, as in MDT, BHM etc), or what really mattered to the guy, other than a successful abort if needed, or a return to a runway with suitable length and winds, having an operative, good instrument approach as back-up.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 14th Jul 2005 at 19:39.
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The best one I ever heard was 'We'll fly the plate (Jeppesen) and keep it loose'. from an old Canadian city father who taught me a lot.
The worst was an extended brief from a command trainee covering everything including taxiways and parking, but omitting high terrain on arrival, and the necessity for an immediate turn on the MAP to avoid spoiling the scenery.
For my 2cents, keep it short & simple, when you divert there will not be time for a life story. Practice at picking out the fundamentals, MSA , anything unusual about the approach or G/A, or your situation (Fuel, Tech. snags etc.) will ease the task for a quick concise brief for the unfortunate night (Yes it will almost certainly be night, trust me on this one!) when you end up diverting to somewhere you have never seen before you can't even pronounce, with no fuel.
Fly high, land low.
The worst was an extended brief from a command trainee covering everything including taxiways and parking, but omitting high terrain on arrival, and the necessity for an immediate turn on the MAP to avoid spoiling the scenery.
For my 2cents, keep it short & simple, when you divert there will not be time for a life story. Practice at picking out the fundamentals, MSA , anything unusual about the approach or G/A, or your situation (Fuel, Tech. snags etc.) will ease the task for a quick concise brief for the unfortunate night (Yes it will almost certainly be night, trust me on this one!) when you end up diverting to somewhere you have never seen before you can't even pronounce, with no fuel.
Fly high, land low.
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I'm an FO, and whenever commanders give a briefed brief, without being 'anti-crm', I brief myself silently (just so i know myself what's on the plate what to expect and what other options i have in case of a G/A) and more importantly, I try as hard to put the mapt procedure on the FMC up to the hold so LNAV could be punched when it gets busy.
helps?
helps?
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Very sensible hsd - and those commanders probably feel they can give an 'abbreviated' brief as opposed to a 'brief' brief because they recognise you are the kind of pilot who is thinking ahead and mentally expecting the unexpected. With less able FOs you may find those same commanders elect to alter the format of their briefings to suit, as would I.
I expect you will probably find the guy in the other seat is mentally doing exactly as you are in preparing for the approach, even without a half-hour brief. If you have reason to suspect otherwise, flag it up (as I am sure you would).
I always mentally tell myself, and sometimes even verbally inform my fellow pilot, that if they have to ask a question about my intentions during the approach, or query some non-standard procedure that I am employing then either:
a) It's my fault for not briefing my colleague what to expect, or
b) It's my fault for making the unbriefed mistake.
..so no foul for speaking up. This attitude seems to protect me from too many breakdowns in CRM during the critical stages because if there's anything non-standard I make sure I brief it, or if questions are asked then I have indeed probably made a mistake.
But "standard brief?" followed by the total comprehensive description of what a standard brief includes does wind me up!
I expect you will probably find the guy in the other seat is mentally doing exactly as you are in preparing for the approach, even without a half-hour brief. If you have reason to suspect otherwise, flag it up (as I am sure you would).
I always mentally tell myself, and sometimes even verbally inform my fellow pilot, that if they have to ask a question about my intentions during the approach, or query some non-standard procedure that I am employing then either:
a) It's my fault for not briefing my colleague what to expect, or
b) It's my fault for making the unbriefed mistake.
..so no foul for speaking up. This attitude seems to protect me from too many breakdowns in CRM during the critical stages because if there's anything non-standard I make sure I brief it, or if questions are asked then I have indeed probably made a mistake.
But "standard brief?" followed by the total comprehensive description of what a standard brief includes does wind me up!