How to do if your Captain is drunk?

[sideloader]

What to do if your Captain is drunk?

I'd like your input on how to deal with this kind of situation.

You just got a brand new job as an F/O flying a big iron, the airplane is loaded and ready to go , and your captain's breath smells to alcohol.

What do you do?.

Any comments are welcome.

Thanks.
Blue skies.

[Helli-Gurl]

Not just relevant to the Captain, what happens if you smell alcohol on any fellow crew members ?

I'm sure it happens....awkward situation..how would you handle it?

x

[ifleeplanes]

Ask them politely if they hve been drinking, and if they say yes suggest that this isnt the best of ideas and that they should offload themselves and go sick.

If they deny it then explain your suspicions and that if they dont offload themselves and go sick that you will be forced to offload yourself and take the matter further, reporting it to the company.

Difficult to handle but whatever you do you dont get airborne with them.

[Tigs2]

I know this may be a bit of a maverick idea etc. But this has caused so many problems now, why dont we just have routine breath testing as past of our outbriefs?? it costs sod all, those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear, and those that complain "oh! no! human rights we shouldnt do this", chances are it those that get pissed at night and dont want mandatory testing prior to flight. Last thing on a crew brief prior to flight ' you breath in to the machine then i will!'. whats the problem??
comments please
Tigs

[Human Factor]

Tigs,

A good plan in theory. I'll agree to your idea when it applies equally worldwide to pilots, train drivers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, etc.

Until then, I have no intention of turning up under the affluence of incohol but I see no reason why my profession should be singled out from any other.

[Say again s l o w l y]

It may be an idea to get a cabin crew member/dispatcher/engineer to confirm your fears. If they agree then get them off the a/c asap. If you even think about continuing the flight you should have your licencse ripped into a million pieces.

I cannot agree with you Silberfuchs, there really is no excuse for drinking before duty in the same way that there is no excuse for drink driving. Covering for that person means it may happen again and what happens if next time it isn't spotted? Not something I'd want on my conscience.

Luckily, this is such a rare occurance (despite the usual un-informed press scare-mongering) that the vast majority of us will never be put into that situation, but if you do, stick to your guns. If you don't know what to do, why not? There are all sorts of situations that we plan for in aviation that may never come up (engine failures for a start) but that doesn't mean we don't know how to deal with them, this is one of those situations. Think up a plan and stick to it!

[sideloader]

Thanks for the brain storming

Blue skies

[Captain Stable]

Personal opinion here...

There have been several cases over the last couple of years of pilots being reported for having drunk alcohol before flying - how long before is a matter of debate.

I have no problem personally with the issue being addressed in a radical manner. However, if it is so addressed, I would also like the issue of pilots flying fatigued to be similarly addressed. Most of the evidence points to fatigue being a far more urgent and prevalent problem than alcohol. Furthermore, as has been pointed out in another thread, there is a significant number of pilots who resort to alcohol in a slightly misguided attempt to combat fatigue and lack of adequate rest.

[redsnail]

Many ways you can play it.
The first way is the least damaging to the person concerned. See if you can persuade him/her that they're not well and suggest that they go sick. See if you can find out what's on their breath. eg it could be ultra strong mouth wash. Unlikely I know but it pays to err on that side initially.
Ease the "pain" so to speak of the person concerned and tell them that you'll call crewing/despatch and arrange the hotac. Basicly make it easy for the crew member to go sick if you know what I mean.

If it's a one off, hopefully those actions should sort the person out and they'll feel suitably chastened to realise how close they came to doing something really stupid. Best done before they've signed on.

If it's part of a trend for this person then mention it to a colleague that you both can trust.

[Firestorm]

My opinion, but arrived at through observation of a similar problem, and how it affected those concerned. I would tell the crew member that I was going to phone ops to get them replaced, and why, and that if I was proved wrong subsequently, then they would be at liberty to take whatever action they thought appropriate. I would also phone my union immediately afterwards.

I have every sympathy with those who suggest that you should encourage the individual to make their own excuses, but having seen someone trying to do that, everyone got hurt, not just the one who was unfit.

[Piltdown Man]

I's phone him in with food poisoning, bad case of squits, bad congestion (unable to clear ears), poor throat (unable to speak), flu or all of the above. Nobody else gets involved. Either way, the plane doesn't fly with him (or her) in the front - they are either in somebody else's car in the car park or in their hotel room. Unless, of course they object when...

[Left Wing]

Pilots in India, do the blow before every flt, and sign on the ops log book (all clear). Why should it not be so world wide.

[chrisbl]

Turn him in, he cannot be serious about his job if he wants to turn up smelling of drink. Let him find an alternative career like running a pub.

why should you feel guilty. Afterall its he who has turned up unfit through drink. It is a choice he has made, its not your choice.

If a crew members cannot make the right choice then they have no place being entrusted with peoples lives.

Personally I am in favour of breathtesting when signing in. I dont care either if taxi drivers etc dont have to go through it. They dont have 200 people sitting behind them going through the air at 500mph with millions below.
If you dont like it get another job.

[Right Way Up]

Chrisbl,
God forbid I ever have to fly with you. You come across as one of those sim check bores who like to point score. Yes drink flying is completely wrong, but when you get to do the job and meet some of the people affected by it you might just understand why people go down that road.

[Earl]

I was asked to operate a flight about 20 months ago with company brand X.
I was on a day off they needed me and the crew was augumented, Heavy crew.
I explained that I just left the bar and was not legal to fly due to some wine I had inhaled.
I was told that I would not be taking the aircraft out and that it was legal to do this.
I refused the flight and was really chastised from it.
I would have been operating 6 hours later, still out of limits!
This fell on deaf ears.
But as an agumented heavy crew all crew members must be in a position to fly if needed. I lost this argument.
Really nice if you work for a company that cares and follows the rules.
Really sucks if you dont.
Could cost you your job.
But at least I did not hurt anyone and my license was protected.
Some people will do anything to move an airplane.
You almost have to be a lawyer to work in this field anymore.

[flash8]

I can't believe there are people are actually considering this question.

If the Commander smells of alcohol, then the flight stops there and then. Fullstop, period. They may not be drunk but they are almost certainly over any limits.

And then he/she deserves the book thrown at them. They are responsible adults, they have to face the music, no matter how many bleeding heart liberals on this board think otherwise (along the lines of "I think you better report sick sir")

And I have no sympathy for those on this board that consider anything else acceptable.

[unablereqnavperf]

chrisbl
It seems to me that you are one of those people that CRM is unable to reach. Your attitude sucks and as a previous fellow said you must be a nightmare to fly with!

I do not condone drinking before flight either but I do understand that us humans make mistakes, and that there are many reasons behind these mistakes, its those underlying issue that we should be trying to correct. Besides flying with fatigue is by far a bigger problem and much more difficult to detect until its too late.

Peer intervention is by far the best way to deal with these problems and some of the advice on how to deal with it is spot on, and usually has the best outcome.

Although perhaps on your planet things the inhabitants never make mistakes ......... but then how do you explain your existance?

[Captain Stable]

flash8, there are several reasons people here are considering the question.

Firstly, because it is a problem people here have had to face, and are facing time after time.

Further, because people here have to fly with senior captains who may well be very good friends with the Flight Operations Director or senior captains who might be their Sim Examiner next time they're in the sweat-box and who have a significant effect on their jobs and careers.

Also, because drunkenness is not a black-and-white affair, and is not as easy as you might think to recognise. Would you know the physiological symptoms if a captain did not know that he had developed diabetes and was hyperglycaemic? The symptoms are often confused with drunkenness. The guy may not have touched a drop, and needs medical help, not some junior F/O being moralistic, judgmental and criticising.

These are reaons forums like this exist - to educate and inform people, rather than to present uninformed, ignorant, unprofessional cut-and-dried, black-and-white answers.

Go and think about it.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm afraid in most cases it CAN be said to be black and white. Don't present yourself fit for duty when you clearly aren't.

Somebody who is having a hypo, feels absolutely rotten and as such should know they aren't fit to fly. I've seen people in this exact situation and there was no way they would have been capable, they may not have known the reason for feeling so unwell, but that surely is not the point. Call in sick and get to a doctor.

As flight crew we have a duty of care to our passengers, their safety is more important to me than anything else and that means if I think a fellow crew member is unfit for duty (be it alchohol induced or whatever) then I will speak out.

Of course we must offer support to people who find themselves in this situation, counselling etc, but at the end of the day it is a serious situation and demands a serious response.

If any Flight Ops director takes a line that someone is to be punished for doing their job just because of the old boy's network, then that person should be hounded out of the flying world.

Answer this, if you saw an obviously drunk driver getting into a car would you call the police? How about if it was at school arrival or finishing time and you knew they were driving past your kid's school, would you do something then? If so, why is flying any different. Professional courtesy can only extend so far.

[Captain Stable]

S.a.s. - In general I agree with you, and everything would be like that in an ideal world. Sadly, that is not how things work every time, and people need to be able to deal with the situations with which they are presented. Happily, I think things are improving and anyone who was hounded out of a job for speaking up would be, IMHO, very hard done by indeed. Furthermore, the person who did the hounding out would be considered either very myopic and deceived by his old friendships or unable to put safety, justice and professionalism before personal considerations. In either case, you would probably say, he is not fit to hold his job, and I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However, it happens, and we up at the sharp end have to deal with it.

Hence I consider this a fair question to be put here and I won't permit some posters pouring scorn on those who put the question.