CSA crash soon?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Prague
CSA crash soon?
Hello
I am pilot CSA and found forum very interesting.
Now we have big problem at CSA because we are buying many new aircraft(B737 and ATR).But we dont have pilots to fly new aircraft so CSA upgrading first officer with 3000 total hours and 300 on B737 to captain.
This captains will fly with first officers maybe 200 hours TT and no experience.We fly places like Jekaterinburg or Baku,very difficult flying.
Many captains are coming with this experience and many pilots are afraid of crash happening soon because of this.
What can i do about this?Thank you for advice
Honza
I am pilot CSA and found forum very interesting.
Now we have big problem at CSA because we are buying many new aircraft(B737 and ATR).But we dont have pilots to fly new aircraft so CSA upgrading first officer with 3000 total hours and 300 on B737 to captain.
This captains will fly with first officers maybe 200 hours TT and no experience.We fly places like Jekaterinburg or Baku,very difficult flying.
Many captains are coming with this experience and many pilots are afraid of crash happening soon because of this.
What can i do about this?Thank you for advice
Honza
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 158
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From: Aldebaran
1.Eat lots of valium while on duty
2.Make sure your last will is current and at a safe place(not your crew bag).Otherwise make sure the document is written on fire and crashproof paper
3. Think of an early retirement and become gardener at the botanical gardens in Prague.
4.Perhaps resign and look for a better airline around?What about Travel Service or Smartwings?
5. Write a letter to the safety authorities
2.Make sure your last will is current and at a safe place(not your crew bag).Otherwise make sure the document is written on fire and crashproof paper
3. Think of an early retirement and become gardener at the botanical gardens in Prague.
4.Perhaps resign and look for a better airline around?What about Travel Service or Smartwings?
5. Write a letter to the safety authorities
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
First post at PPRune.
Improper forum.
You've never really been to BAK, have you, son? What is there that scares you, comapared to, let's say FCO? Honestly, just because YOU cannot find it on a map or spell the name of the country makes it for pilots no harder.
If you had an ATPL and were a pilot, you'd know how to voice your concerns to the appropriate parties be it your ALPA representatives for the start. I suppose you don't.
Inexperienced pilots never fly together, as per JAR OPS, know you not?
Ab initio programmes in here are no different to any place in Europe and follow the same requirements, how did you obtain your rating, if any?
CSA have a 12 hrs max duty limitation, is this the same around?
What exactly is your problem that needs resolving?
FD.
Improper forum.
You've never really been to BAK, have you, son? What is there that scares you, comapared to, let's say FCO? Honestly, just because YOU cannot find it on a map or spell the name of the country makes it for pilots no harder.
If you had an ATPL and were a pilot, you'd know how to voice your concerns to the appropriate parties be it your ALPA representatives for the start. I suppose you don't.
Inexperienced pilots never fly together, as per JAR OPS, know you not?
Ab initio programmes in here are no different to any place in Europe and follow the same requirements, how did you obtain your rating, if any?
CSA have a 12 hrs max duty limitation, is this the same around?
What exactly is your problem that needs resolving?
FD.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 219
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From: North of the 49th parallel, eh!
Honza might have a point, although I am still looking for the proper forum....could it be the "will fly for food forum" ? Ooooh, Aaah know, it's the "let's pretend we're running an airline but in reality don't want to get stuck with the bill forum"!
Someday, I hope that civilization reaches beyond the iron curtain and breathes a little common sense in here. Nevertheless, there is a fine line between being perfectly legal and morally wrong. I am sure our friends in North America would cringe at the thought of a flight crew prancing about Europe with a grand total of 3500 hours worth of experience between the two of them. Of course JAR OPS is the best...Of course. And of course legal.
Ab initio, well we could have a very long discussion about this. Why not post what ab initio means to our company so everyone could really see how very similar it is to the accepted industry standard.
FTL, well the first F sure don't stand for flight. In Czecholand, the law is such a shambles that there is no legal recourse if you bust FTL. The company might have you stay after school and write a hundred times "I busted the limit" but that's about it.
And good to see you back LE. I thought you were unusually quiet the last couple of months, almost wanted to say I missed your acid remarks.
Someday, I hope that civilization reaches beyond the iron curtain and breathes a little common sense in here. Nevertheless, there is a fine line between being perfectly legal and morally wrong. I am sure our friends in North America would cringe at the thought of a flight crew prancing about Europe with a grand total of 3500 hours worth of experience between the two of them. Of course JAR OPS is the best...Of course. And of course legal.
Ab initio, well we could have a very long discussion about this. Why not post what ab initio means to our company so everyone could really see how very similar it is to the accepted industry standard.
FTL, well the first F sure don't stand for flight. In Czecholand, the law is such a shambles that there is no legal recourse if you bust FTL. The company might have you stay after school and write a hundred times "I busted the limit" but that's about it.
And good to see you back LE. I thought you were unusually quiet the last couple of months, almost wanted to say I missed your acid remarks.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 158
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From: Aldebaran
Howdy click
Me quiet?Well i was very low on valium,without it there is no pprune posting.....and i have the damn JAR-OPS manual to read through...and of course there is always waiting and seeing,as one famous writer said...
Me quiet?Well i was very low on valium,without it there is no pprune posting.....and i have the damn JAR-OPS manual to read through...and of course there is always waiting and seeing,as one famous writer said...
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 27
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From: someplace behind the iron curtain
To FD, I guess sir that you are a CSA manegment pilot, and as such your views are more than a little slanted!!! Please tell this forum how many Ab Initio pilots where turned out to date, and what kind of flying they did in training, I think industry standard is way to vague. Lets tell the forum how a new hire with less than two hundred hours can in three years or less be up graded to an ATR captain with 2200 TT hours in his log book!!!! Do the math sir, he does not even qualify for the ICAO ATPL, thats a joke!!!!!, and sure as #$%$ not industry standard for a company that claims to be a European Legacy Carrier!!! If the company is so short staffed why dont they tap into the resources out there in the post 9-11 economy, namly losts of VERY experienced out of work pilots, and on file at PARK and others. I will tell the readers why, because the company does not want to pay the INDUSTRY STANDARD!!!! Hence the low level of experince, and animosity felt by guys like Honza, Lots of luck CSA pilots!!!!!!
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 158
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From: Aldebaran
Howdy Bratko
Hm,to me it appears that you are using quite harsh words on this very british forum,indeed.
Do you think that the ab-initio training at the mentioned company is not quite up to industry standards?So,perhaps this honza guy might be somehow right in what he says?
I have to admit that i just recently had a guy,seven months with the company,who did not know what a CTOT was and i had to do some major explaining..not to mention that he did not have a clue about severe icing procedures on the ATR
when i asked him about them(he did not have a clue of the other memory items either),oh and did i mention his complete inability of RT procedures?
But,enough....There, take thou that till thou bring better news!
LE
Hm,to me it appears that you are using quite harsh words on this very british forum,indeed.
Do you think that the ab-initio training at the mentioned company is not quite up to industry standards?So,perhaps this honza guy might be somehow right in what he says?
I have to admit that i just recently had a guy,seven months with the company,who did not know what a CTOT was and i had to do some major explaining..not to mention that he did not have a clue about severe icing procedures on the ATR
when i asked him about them(he did not have a clue of the other memory items either),oh and did i mention his complete inability of RT procedures?
But,enough....There, take thou that till thou bring better news!
LE
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
Nowhere near, dear bratko.
Thank you LE, exactly my point. I am not pretending there no meat in Honza's soup. I just hate the spices the way he puts'em in.
I am not about to shield anything by adherence to minimum requirements, that is flawed indeed. Also, it is obvious that ab inito (mainly modular) programmes come nowhere close to in-house cadet schemes say Lufthansa style.
In fact, I had myself joined with the bare minimum of 250 TT and there's little less than thousand more on my log. I will still feel uneasy in my chair tonight but am thankful for having been given tha chance. Honza's genereal point is valid euro-wide, if somebody claims to be a CSA flight crew and immediately shoots the company in the chest - I feel free to stand up.
I am not aware what exactly is that industry standard you are referring to. For the sake of simplicity, Europeanwide. Virgin? Easyjet? Ryanair? AirBerlin? SkyEurope? Baltic? Volare? Wizz? Or perhaps our sweetest Travel/SmartWings? I'll be clear, industry best practice should be our aim, not industry standard. The industry had changed. I like our brand but whenever ALPA guys talk about "major" I shiver. Flag carrier, indeed, but there is a fine line, as you say click.
See my first post again saying just that, I struggle to see the reason for shooting the company for being close to industry standard. Albeit far from best practice.
Sorry click, for editing my post on FTL/duty limit, it was for corectness. I still believe that in-house 12/14 hrs duty limit is far beyond what I perceive as industry standard.
Frankly, how many of the "operational events" involved novice pilots screwing up?
That being said, are we ready to have a debate on the raised facts?
Given the current expansion of airline-like businesses, is the European GA large enough to supply a constant stream 3000+ for the jet right hand seat?
Is there, or is there not in your company push not to fail people to keep the investment into their training? Is there a will to fail or report those performing belowacceptable standards?
Will the pan-european FTL impact the countries with paper box or no rules so to increase expenses for certain companies, thus leveling the playing field and providing some breathing space for those who play fair with their crew and customers? Will the food chain return?
When the lo-co market is saturated, will these companies start to provide the pool of experienced pilots and will the major and flag carriers be re-invented, especially in "new"Europe?
What about the bloody trains? Will regional part of the business survive, how long?
Where do I file an application for SpaceShip1 cadet training programme?
Yeah whatever, it is lunch time.
Bye, pals.
FD.
Edited after the first and only sentence had been submitted by mistake.
Thank you LE, exactly my point. I am not pretending there no meat in Honza's soup. I just hate the spices the way he puts'em in.
I am not about to shield anything by adherence to minimum requirements, that is flawed indeed. Also, it is obvious that ab inito (mainly modular) programmes come nowhere close to in-house cadet schemes say Lufthansa style.
In fact, I had myself joined with the bare minimum of 250 TT and there's little less than thousand more on my log. I will still feel uneasy in my chair tonight but am thankful for having been given tha chance. Honza's genereal point is valid euro-wide, if somebody claims to be a CSA flight crew and immediately shoots the company in the chest - I feel free to stand up.
I am not aware what exactly is that industry standard you are referring to. For the sake of simplicity, Europeanwide. Virgin? Easyjet? Ryanair? AirBerlin? SkyEurope? Baltic? Volare? Wizz? Or perhaps our sweetest Travel/SmartWings? I'll be clear, industry best practice should be our aim, not industry standard. The industry had changed. I like our brand but whenever ALPA guys talk about "major" I shiver. Flag carrier, indeed, but there is a fine line, as you say click.
See my first post again saying just that, I struggle to see the reason for shooting the company for being close to industry standard. Albeit far from best practice.
Sorry click, for editing my post on FTL/duty limit, it was for corectness. I still believe that in-house 12/14 hrs duty limit is far beyond what I perceive as industry standard.
Frankly, how many of the "operational events" involved novice pilots screwing up?
That being said, are we ready to have a debate on the raised facts?
Given the current expansion of airline-like businesses, is the European GA large enough to supply a constant stream 3000+ for the jet right hand seat?
Is there, or is there not in your company push not to fail people to keep the investment into their training? Is there a will to fail or report those performing belowacceptable standards?
Will the pan-european FTL impact the countries with paper box or no rules so to increase expenses for certain companies, thus leveling the playing field and providing some breathing space for those who play fair with their crew and customers? Will the food chain return?
When the lo-co market is saturated, will these companies start to provide the pool of experienced pilots and will the major and flag carriers be re-invented, especially in "new"Europe?
What about the bloody trains? Will regional part of the business survive, how long?
Where do I file an application for SpaceShip1 cadet training programme?
Yeah whatever, it is lunch time.Bye, pals.
FD.
Edited after the first and only sentence had been submitted by mistake.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 1st October 2004 at 09:59.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 158
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From: Aldebaran
Well,FlightDetentyou should know that Bratko is a little bit sensitive about a few things happening at mentioned company.As are many others.
Have you ever been working for a different airline(not in czecho country,but somewhere out in the normal world?)
If no,then try it out,and you will soon figure out a few things....there is a HUGE difference between airlines operating according JAR-OPS...
LE
Have you ever been working for a different airline(not in czecho country,but somewhere out in the normal world?)
If no,then try it out,and you will soon figure out a few things....there is a HUGE difference between airlines operating according JAR-OPS...
LE
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
From: North of the 49th parallel, eh!
Ok I am stupid too, what do you mean check your profile? I don't see anything in there to give me a woody....
Seniority is number one at Cheesy Eh! Let's ask LE what he thinks of being passed by a hundred guys on the seniority because no one wants to fly the ATR.
click
Seniority is number one at Cheesy Eh! Let's ask LE what he thinks of being passed by a hundred guys on the seniority because no one wants to fly the ATR.
click
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Aldebaran
Yeah,click you are right.
The new system sucks,as all the RH seat guys on the shiny jets will laugh if being asked to upgrade to the submarine.They will have to wait just for one more year or so and then its LH seat in a normal A/C for them,not like the crappy ATRs we have..(i know,ATR best).
The new system sucks,as all the RH seat guys on the shiny jets will laugh if being asked to upgrade to the submarine.They will have to wait just for one more year or so and then its LH seat in a normal A/C for them,not like the crappy ATRs we have..(i know,ATR best).
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
Busy compiling the mamooth above, I still fight with the language, you see.
c: on my profile I claim to posess CPL, thus hardly a management bloke.
Nevermind, would I sound less agitated on Valium?
FD.
c: on my profile I claim to posess CPL, thus hardly a management bloke.
Nevermind, would I sound less agitated on Valium?
FD.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
From: North of the 49th parallel, eh!
I like our brand but whenever ALPA guys talk about "major" I shiver
I think that you'll be singing a different tune in about five years FD. A couple of times you're going to get shafted for promotion, or you'll get calls about something that was completely out of your control and once you deal with the bureacracy and the deskbound psychotics you'll start smoking wacky tobaccy or taking valium like LE. Really think about this and don't forget that if it weren't for the union, your starting pay would be less than the average monthly pay in Czech land. Mine was, and I know how it feels to get 300 USD a MONTH. What I used to consider a good daily wage turned out to be my monthly wage. THink about this for a while and if I were you, I'd go down and give the ALPA guys a great hug. If you've only been with the company for the last couple of years, you have no idea what it used to be like. A lot of the stuff you take for granted is a result of ALPA input. No need to shiver.
click
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Aldebaran
um...anyone called me?Must be the valium...damn drugs...
The whole situation reminds me of the good old Crossair-they were expanding so fast that the quality of the new hires as well as the training went down the drains...unfortunately we know the results...so,why not act NOW and stop the ship(ours) from sinking(i wonder why they call this company Titanic),than wait until the day you have a big smoldering hole somewhere....and debris all over the place....
Honza was right with this,and i wonder what else he has to say..he seems to be quite a smart guy,somehow.
...i am back to bed,next package of valium ready...
The whole situation reminds me of the good old Crossair-they were expanding so fast that the quality of the new hires as well as the training went down the drains...unfortunately we know the results...so,why not act NOW and stop the ship(ours) from sinking(i wonder why they call this company Titanic),than wait until the day you have a big smoldering hole somewhere....and debris all over the place....
Honza was right with this,and i wonder what else he has to say..he seems to be quite a smart guy,somehow.
...i am back to bed,next package of valium ready...
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 219
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From: North of the 49th parallel, eh!
i wonder why they call this company Titanic
Now I've had a chance to reread FD's post again and how about this:
Frankly, how many of the "operational events" involved novice pilots screwing up?
LE what do you have in mind as act now? I am fresh out of ideas besides putting an application to everywhere else and bailing before we sink.
After all, the guy you are snapping at today might be your instructor tomorrow because of our great, wonderful, incredible seniority system that makes a mockery of your seniority number.click
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 158
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From: Aldebaran
Well,click
If we wont be transferred to the piggy jet i am outta here...this ship IS sinking,and the guy i had recently is just the beginning of it...more and more people like him board the Titanic now,can you imagine he didnt even bloody know the difference between a A321 and a B757,mistook the planes as they taxied by..great stuff huh...thats real aviators out there....scary,i can tell ya.
I am ready to bail out any moment,depends a bit on our new contract and our promised transfer...we can debate about that stuff someday over a beer or two...perhaps we should invite FD too?
If we wont be transferred to the piggy jet i am outta here...this ship IS sinking,and the guy i had recently is just the beginning of it...more and more people like him board the Titanic now,can you imagine he didnt even bloody know the difference between a A321 and a B757,mistook the planes as they taxied by..great stuff huh...thats real aviators out there....scary,i can tell ya.
I am ready to bail out any moment,depends a bit on our new contract and our promised transfer...we can debate about that stuff someday over a beer or two...perhaps we should invite FD too?
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
From: North of the 49th parallel, eh!
I am ready to bail out any moment,depends a bit on our new contract
And Honza, welcome to pprune, there's more CSA pilots here than on our intranet probably
I think you've opened Pandora's box for our company and I look forward to your contributions.
LE you're on for brewski, just remember not to mix it with Valium
