You want me to go direct to WHERE?
Thread Starter
You want me to go direct to WHERE?
O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo? Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
While such a confusion is unlikely with 5-character significant points, reading the Cali report got me thinking about the proliferation of such waypoints in Europe, and the increasing tendency for ATC to ask us to fly direct to somewhere we've never heard of. As a single pilot flying IFR it makes me more than a little nervous.
So how is this situation handled in 2-crew operations? What procedures do you follow to ensure that you know exactly what's going to happen when the aircraft turns towards that seemingly random point that you first heard of a few seconds ago?
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BW- the steps for me are:-
1) Ask them to spell it (sometimes more than once
)
2) Enter it as a waypoint in the FMC
3) That gives me a dotted line which I follow (expanding range if req'd) until I see the waypoint.
4) If it looks ok (especially if it is a shortcut ), discuss with other crew and execute the change; then rebuild the route (ask ATC if req'd)
Only gripes are:-
1) The proliferation of stupid computer generated waypoints
2) Changing my route in the FMC for Controller (1) to be given a freq change to Controller (2) who then insists I revert to original plan (waypoints now gone
)
If there is doubt about terrain/fuel etc, do not press the execute button until the query is resolved.
1) Ask them to spell it (sometimes more than once
)2) Enter it as a waypoint in the FMC
3) That gives me a dotted line which I follow (expanding range if req'd) until I see the waypoint.
4) If it looks ok (especially if it is a shortcut
), discuss with other crew and execute the change; then rebuild the route (ask ATC if req'd)Only gripes are:-
1) The proliferation of stupid computer generated waypoints
2) Changing my route in the FMC for Controller (1) to be given a freq change to Controller (2) who then insists I revert to original plan (waypoints now gone
)If there is doubt about terrain/fuel etc, do not press the execute button until the query is resolved.
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With all due respect, the Cali scenario was multi-factorial, although the FMS waypoint selection was the final seal (even then though speedbrake retraction might have saved the day - this was one legacy... 7x7 speedbrake retraction on a GPWS alert placed in SOPs...).
I believe also both NDB's indicaters on the FMC also led to confusion, an HCI issue that was resolved in later SW versions.
I don't fly Boeing EFIS so I stand to be corrected.
I believe also both NDB's indicaters on the FMC also led to confusion, an HCI issue that was resolved in later SW versions.
I don't fly Boeing EFIS so I stand to be corrected.
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>So how is this situation handled in 2-crew operations? What procedures do you follow to ensure that you know exactly what's going to happen when the aircraft turns towards that seemingly random point that you first heard of a few seconds ago?
The company requires that I have the enroute chart out. If I cannot find the fix as he speaks, I will reply, "standby, I'm looking for that one." If it's off our filed route, we'll bring that up at the end of the readback, and normally that gets him to rescind it (he thought we were going on a different route). Other times that's not the case, and we then verify the expected routing after that fix. That allows us to put the pieces of the puzzle together, verify it on the chart, the Map display, and the FMS, and then watch the jet navigate.
There was one problem recently in southeastern Iran SE of Kerman on UL124. The FIR boundary crossing fix into Karachi airspace had moved south about 15 nm, and it was not on any of the charts yet. Company notified us, and we found it in the chart NOTAMS. We backed up the manual Lat/Long entries with VOR radials to make sure we were spot on. It's uncomfortable, though, when the FMS does not like the route you input.
The company requires that I have the enroute chart out. If I cannot find the fix as he speaks, I will reply, "standby, I'm looking for that one." If it's off our filed route, we'll bring that up at the end of the readback, and normally that gets him to rescind it (he thought we were going on a different route). Other times that's not the case, and we then verify the expected routing after that fix. That allows us to put the pieces of the puzzle together, verify it on the chart, the Map display, and the FMS, and then watch the jet navigate.
There was one problem recently in southeastern Iran SE of Kerman on UL124. The FIR boundary crossing fix into Karachi airspace had moved south about 15 nm, and it was not on any of the charts yet. Company notified us, and we found it in the chart NOTAMS. We backed up the manual Lat/Long entries with VOR radials to make sure we were spot on. It's uncomfortable, though, when the FMS does not like the route you input.
Mistrust in Management
BOAC
<<If there is doubt about terrain/fuel etc, do not press the execute button until the query is resolved.>>
Great idea on a Boeing, unfortunately impossible on a 'bus'. Still you could always put it in the 'fix' page I suppose. Ooops - not possible on most 'busses' either. So I'll try a route copy then - Oh dear, can't do that either. Whose great idea was the FMGC anyway?
Hope you are well BOAC.
Regards
Exeng
Great idea on a Boeing, unfortunately impossible on a 'bus'. Still you could always put it in the 'fix' page I suppose. Ooops - not possible on most 'busses' either. So I'll try a route copy then - Oh dear, can't do that either. Whose great idea was the FMGC anyway?
Hope you are well BOAC.
Regards
Exeng
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At the risk of starting another Boeing/Airbus dingdong - Lord preserve my lack of knowledge on such computerised matters (its not a Windows programme, is it...??
)
....and yes, thanks, EE, hope you and all yours are too.
- Lord preserve my lack of knowledge on such computerised matters (its not a Windows programme, is it...?? )....and yes, thanks, EE, hope you and all yours are too.
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exeng.
The bus FMGEC may not have a route copy, but it does have a secondary flight plan. So if you have made a horlicks of the go-direct or ATC change their mind, make the secondary the active.
This is assuming that you copied the active to the secondary before you made the changes.
The bus FMGEC may not have a route copy, but it does have a secondary flight plan. So if you have made a horlicks of the go-direct or ATC change their mind, make the secondary the active.
This is assuming that you copied the active to the secondary before you made the changes.
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Two different scenarios:
1.- crusing at FL 350 over France. XXX proceed direct Pouly. Can you spell the point please XXX? input point on FMC , looks reasonable -> go that way. Does not look reasonable (track to follow or distance?) ask for confirmation and spelling again, clarify situation.
2.- Flying an approach approaching or bellow the MSA. XXX proceed direct Pouly. Look for the point in the STAR and APP plates. Confirm under radar control. If point not readily recognisable decline direct, ask for vectors. If vectors not available/ not under radar and IMC --> unable to comply following published procedure.
1.- crusing at FL 350 over France. XXX proceed direct Pouly. Can you spell the point please XXX? input point on FMC , looks reasonable -> go that way. Does not look reasonable (track to follow or distance?) ask for confirmation and spelling again, clarify situation.
2.- Flying an approach approaching or bellow the MSA. XXX proceed direct Pouly. Look for the point in the STAR and APP plates. Confirm under radar control. If point not readily recognisable decline direct, ask for vectors. If vectors not available/ not under radar and IMC --> unable to comply following published procedure.
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The problem appears to be a pilot being issued a route direct to a fix, and not really knowing how to spell the fix so that they can type it into the GPS, or FMS. The only way to correct this problem is for the pilot to ask that the FIX be spelled (phonitically), and/or to ask for an initial heading.
For example if a pilot ask for direct Lansing, does he mean Lansing IL, Lansing MI, or some other Lansing? I don't know unless I ask.
Again, COMMUNICATION is the KEY!
Mike
NATCA FWA
For example if a pilot ask for direct Lansing, does he mean Lansing IL, Lansing MI, or some other Lansing? I don't know unless I ask.
Again, COMMUNICATION is the KEY!
Mike
NATCA FWA
AA965 Cali report available on line from Flight Safety Foundation, then see Digest for May-June 1998: Boeing 757 CFIT Accident at Cali, Colombia
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As a personal rule, if I'm not familiar with the fix, I'll ask ATC to give me an "initial heading" to the fix, ask them to spell it for positive I.D. and then "punch it in the box". If it all agrees my partner and I will pull up the Lat. and Long. and I.D. it on the enroute chart, verify the next fix with ATC and make sure the "lads in the chairs" haven't given us a point in space that is a clearance limit. Seems to keep me out of trouble.
