wats the big deal about jets ?
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wats the big deal about jets ?
can sooeone please tell me why airlines insist on jet time while turboprop time does not count, like we r children of a lesser god.?
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I do agree with 7p3i7lot. There is no big deal to fly a jet. I flew a turboprob before driving my bus and felt, that it is a piece of cake doing it. Of course a jet is heavier, faster .... , but the turboprop is more demanding, flying wise, preplanning wise (icing, bad weather). I know guys feeling more comfortable to fly with colleagues having a turboprob background.
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Rudev
Turbo prop jocks are certainly not children of lesser Gods.
I'm afraid the only answer to your question has been very well put by 7p3i7lot. Read this answer carefully and wonder no more.
If it is jet job you look for I wish you all the luck. It will come.
ps...been there..I know what you mean.
Turbo prop jocks are certainly not children of lesser Gods.
I'm afraid the only answer to your question has been very well put by 7p3i7lot. Read this answer carefully and wonder no more.
If it is jet job you look for I wish you all the luck. It will come.
ps...been there..I know what you mean.
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Jet time vs Turboprop Time?
Had a nice dinner with a real idiot ex airline captain.
At one time he claimed he would only hire guys with L1011 time. I asked why, because he thought it was a systems heavy aircraft and the type was tough.
Keep in mind many pilots in the airlines have never flown anything less then jets. Deice, lack of power, lack of radar etc, has never been and issue with these guys. And not surprisingly some of the stupidist accidents out there are due to reasons that lesser aircraft pilots would probably never due.
Jets are harder to fly then other aircraft for a few reasons. The are faster. If I gave the typical turboprop captain hold instructions from 3 miles away, doing 400kts, he might be a little overwhelmed at first. You have to be way more ahead of the aircraft. You have more weight, takeoffs and landings are more critical. Most turboprop pilots can't explain what balanced field, V2 or what thier aircraft would do climb gradient wise. You don't have Paine Stewart type pressuriztion issues in turboprops flying at FL240.
On the other hand.....sitting in the soup, picking up ice, lack of serious power to get over hills and weather, tends to make the turbine guys proficient in that regard. As well they spend more time in the air for the same trip, they have less equipment on board and hence rely less on just putting the throttles forward to get out of trouble.
I have never thought the equipment made the pilot, so I would hire any pilot flying any equipment that knew what he was doing. Give me a pilot that has flown by himself in the soup with lousy, underpowered equipment, year after year.
At one time he claimed he would only hire guys with L1011 time. I asked why, because he thought it was a systems heavy aircraft and the type was tough.
Keep in mind many pilots in the airlines have never flown anything less then jets. Deice, lack of power, lack of radar etc, has never been and issue with these guys. And not surprisingly some of the stupidist accidents out there are due to reasons that lesser aircraft pilots would probably never due.
Jets are harder to fly then other aircraft for a few reasons. The are faster. If I gave the typical turboprop captain hold instructions from 3 miles away, doing 400kts, he might be a little overwhelmed at first. You have to be way more ahead of the aircraft. You have more weight, takeoffs and landings are more critical. Most turboprop pilots can't explain what balanced field, V2 or what thier aircraft would do climb gradient wise. You don't have Paine Stewart type pressuriztion issues in turboprops flying at FL240.
On the other hand.....sitting in the soup, picking up ice, lack of serious power to get over hills and weather, tends to make the turbine guys proficient in that regard. As well they spend more time in the air for the same trip, they have less equipment on board and hence rely less on just putting the throttles forward to get out of trouble.
I have never thought the equipment made the pilot, so I would hire any pilot flying any equipment that knew what he was doing. Give me a pilot that has flown by himself in the soup with lousy, underpowered equipment, year after year.
Jets over props - simple.
The longer you fly on props the worse your hearing gets - sorry, pardon..............
Oh yes, with exceptions, you can fly over most of the weather rather than through it or around it.
In respect of jobs applications - jet time usually wins because it means you have already progressed further up the ladder already. Its a little like having a military background rather than
a instructing/crop dusting/air taxi history. It does not guarantee the military guy will be the better choice but it does mean that he has undergone selection, professional training and has a certain
level of experience - the same is not always true of the candidate from the other side of the fence. To use a crude comparison - imagine a Formula One team in search of a new driver from the US - would you choose an Indycar driver or a NASCAR driver - both race cars but one is more likely to make a smooth transition than the other - there are always exceptions (Michael Andretti) but the odds look more favourable to the hiring team. If you run a small fleet of say A320's - who is more lilkely to pass your course - an F16 man, a pilot with a thousand hours on a Learjet or a self-improver with a million hours of 152's and a year on an Aztec - no guarantees but the odds will favour two of the three !
Now that Saddam has been caught, maybe just maybe, things will begin to look up - only surprised that Blair did not claim personal responsibility for the capture !!!!
The longer you fly on props the worse your hearing gets - sorry, pardon..............
Oh yes, with exceptions, you can fly over most of the weather rather than through it or around it.
In respect of jobs applications - jet time usually wins because it means you have already progressed further up the ladder already. Its a little like having a military background rather than
a instructing/crop dusting/air taxi history. It does not guarantee the military guy will be the better choice but it does mean that he has undergone selection, professional training and has a certain
level of experience - the same is not always true of the candidate from the other side of the fence. To use a crude comparison - imagine a Formula One team in search of a new driver from the US - would you choose an Indycar driver or a NASCAR driver - both race cars but one is more likely to make a smooth transition than the other - there are always exceptions (Michael Andretti) but the odds look more favourable to the hiring team. If you run a small fleet of say A320's - who is more lilkely to pass your course - an F16 man, a pilot with a thousand hours on a Learjet or a self-improver with a million hours of 152's and a year on an Aztec - no guarantees but the odds will favour two of the three !
Now that Saddam has been caught, maybe just maybe, things will begin to look up - only surprised that Blair did not claim personal responsibility for the capture !!!!
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I think most of the answers have already been given bar one! You will have far more fun flying a turbo prop than a jet so make the most of it!
We have taken cadet pilots on to the Airbus and I feel a bit sorry for them as they have missed out but I guess they won't miss what they have not had!
The Airbus does not require much handling skill, you could argue the less experience you have on conventional types the better. The cadets tend to adapt to the Airbus much quicker than many experienced pilots. It is only the last 50ft and that lttle thing called airmanship where they play catch-up.
Don't be in a rush, when you are sitting on a night TFS for the third night in a row you will miss your days on the turbo props.
We have taken cadet pilots on to the Airbus and I feel a bit sorry for them as they have missed out but I guess they won't miss what they have not had!
The Airbus does not require much handling skill, you could argue the less experience you have on conventional types the better. The cadets tend to adapt to the Airbus much quicker than many experienced pilots. It is only the last 50ft and that lttle thing called airmanship where they play catch-up.
Don't be in a rush, when you are sitting on a night TFS for the third night in a row you will miss your days on the turbo props.
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Beamer
Original thread was ref turbo prop experience...not light A/C stuff.
The difference between an experienced turbo prop guy, with multi crew, schedule and charter ops, etc, over that of a single crew light A/C guy, even with multi eng. time, is maybe greater than that between a turbo prop guy and an experinced jet jock. ( airline ).
Also, although I have flown with many many excellent ex fast jet jocks, and learned loads from them, there are many who cannot give up the single crew stuff, and do not make good airline crew.
Still reckon 7p3i7lot answered in full.
Original thread was ref turbo prop experience...not light A/C stuff.
The difference between an experienced turbo prop guy, with multi crew, schedule and charter ops, etc, over that of a single crew light A/C guy, even with multi eng. time, is maybe greater than that between a turbo prop guy and an experinced jet jock. ( airline ).
Also, although I have flown with many many excellent ex fast jet jocks, and learned loads from them, there are many who cannot give up the single crew stuff, and do not make good airline crew.
Still reckon 7p3i7lot answered in full.
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Kinsman "The Airbus does not require much handling skill, you could argue the less experience you have on conventional types the better. The cadets tend to adapt to the Airbus much quicker than many experienced pilots. It is only the last 50ft and that lttle thing called airmanship where they play catch-up."
Bollocks! The last 50 feet are played much better by many 'cadets' than by many experienced types, perhaps for the very reason that they havent been on other types! As for airmanship, well they are cadets, just cos they fly a bus what do you expect?!?!
The biggest problems with the bus can often be people who won't accept that it can do X or Y, just that it does it differently. More overcontrolling by big hour guys than by cadets too...
As for the original question, have to agree it is just because they can...
For the record, I loved my time on props but this is a job and the bus is the best place I have worked yet...
Bollocks! The last 50 feet are played much better by many 'cadets' than by many experienced types, perhaps for the very reason that they havent been on other types! As for airmanship, well they are cadets, just cos they fly a bus what do you expect?!?!
The biggest problems with the bus can often be people who won't accept that it can do X or Y, just that it does it differently. More overcontrolling by big hour guys than by cadets too...
As for the original question, have to agree it is just because they can...
For the record, I loved my time on props but this is a job and the bus is the best place I have worked yet...
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It's always amused me that the difficulty and stress in aviation is in reverse order to the prestige and financial reward.
Single-crew light twin -- you're doing everything yourself. From the moment the phone goes calling you for a job, you are flat out dealing with every aspect of the pre-flight. You're in close contact with the punters. You're using (often) relatively basic equipment. You're stuck in all the worst weather. The variety of destinations is massive. People regard you as "a pilot of really tiddly planes". Status with friends, family and "better" pilots (coming to that) is ........ zilch. Awful money.
Two- crew airline turboprop -- Handles like a light twin (often). Not much faster.Company do the pre flight stuff. F/O gets the weather and Notams, picks up full nav log, fills in Flight Report title fields (cor, really hard stuff ... not). Capt. calculates fuel. Runway performance often not critical (depending on operation). Better equipment. Segregated from pax. Hosties make the drinks. In the crumblies and icing, but the radar and de-icing works fairly well (a/c age related, I admit). You're regarded as an"airline pilot" of some standing, until they see your aircraft and say "B..b..b..but is got those whirly things on it !" Money getting better.
Two crew airline short-haul jet. Getting easier, better equipped, way above the weather. You're a "jet airline pilot". People still ask "When are you going to fly something bigger ?". The workload is high, if the sectors are short and frequent. Once you know how to use the performance book and have adapted to the higher speed (big deal), you've discovered how much easier it all is. Ignore the idiots who talk about "swept wing" handling -- it's no different to any other handling (Concorde excepted, and even that's mainly the landing). Money really shooting up, now.
Two (even three) crew long-haul jet. Superb equipment. Handling and speed comments as for short-haul jet. Most of the time spent bored out of your brains, feet on the instrument panel, reading a book, autopilot doing the straight line stuff, even the wiggly bits. No pressure. Performance, fuel and weather planning are more complex, but not much more. You can't land a plane all that well any more, because you only get to do it four times a month (and that goes for landing the plane, too). People think that you are a vastly experienced aviation God. Money at least on a par with short haul, but can be much better. (especially if you work for an ex nationalised mob who pay out huge wedges in allowances).
So, basically, this "jet time" thing is all rubbish.
There's a dangerous new breed of pilot out there. Only ever flown jets since graduating from the Air Training School. I'll leave you to work out why they're dangerous.
I'd be asking "Do you have any other experience except for jet time !!!
Single-crew light twin -- you're doing everything yourself. From the moment the phone goes calling you for a job, you are flat out dealing with every aspect of the pre-flight. You're in close contact with the punters. You're using (often) relatively basic equipment. You're stuck in all the worst weather. The variety of destinations is massive. People regard you as "a pilot of really tiddly planes". Status with friends, family and "better" pilots (coming to that) is ........ zilch. Awful money.
Two- crew airline turboprop -- Handles like a light twin (often). Not much faster.Company do the pre flight stuff. F/O gets the weather and Notams, picks up full nav log, fills in Flight Report title fields (cor, really hard stuff ... not). Capt. calculates fuel. Runway performance often not critical (depending on operation). Better equipment. Segregated from pax. Hosties make the drinks. In the crumblies and icing, but the radar and de-icing works fairly well (a/c age related, I admit). You're regarded as an"airline pilot" of some standing, until they see your aircraft and say "B..b..b..but is got those whirly things on it !" Money getting better.
Two crew airline short-haul jet. Getting easier, better equipped, way above the weather. You're a "jet airline pilot". People still ask "When are you going to fly something bigger ?". The workload is high, if the sectors are short and frequent. Once you know how to use the performance book and have adapted to the higher speed (big deal), you've discovered how much easier it all is. Ignore the idiots who talk about "swept wing" handling -- it's no different to any other handling (Concorde excepted, and even that's mainly the landing). Money really shooting up, now.
Two (even three) crew long-haul jet. Superb equipment. Handling and speed comments as for short-haul jet. Most of the time spent bored out of your brains, feet on the instrument panel, reading a book, autopilot doing the straight line stuff, even the wiggly bits. No pressure. Performance, fuel and weather planning are more complex, but not much more. You can't land a plane all that well any more, because you only get to do it four times a month (and that goes for landing the plane, too). People think that you are a vastly experienced aviation God. Money at least on a par with short haul, but can be much better. (especially if you work for an ex nationalised mob who pay out huge wedges in allowances).
So, basically, this "jet time" thing is all rubbish.
There's a dangerous new breed of pilot out there. Only ever flown jets since graduating from the Air Training School. I'll leave you to work out why they're dangerous.
I'd be asking "Do you have any other experience except for jet time !!!
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Single pilot time doesnt seem to have great impact in Europe.That is flying 5.7 t A/C in nasty weather ,without any Autopilot.
I believe EU airlines rather have operators than flyers.200 hours guy in an Airbus is being done over here,must be working then i guess....airlines are asking for 1000 hoursTT guy with 500 hours on type..so that tells me..they dont need experienced people...
M.85
I believe EU airlines rather have operators than flyers.200 hours guy in an Airbus is being done over here,must be working then i guess....airlines are asking for 1000 hoursTT guy with 500 hours on type..so that tells me..they dont need experienced people...
M.85
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Anthony You missed out a lower rung on the ladder
jump plane pilot You get a call on Saturday morning when you've already promised your wife you'll go xmas shopping with her. Then you slope off to the airport with the words "And don't come back." ringing in your ears. The drop zone is at least an hour away and the first thing you have to do is to get fuel in the old 182, and there's not even a ladder available. Next you have to hunt around for the pilot's rig because you're damn sure not going to fly without it ( in any event, the seat is welded in place and you need the parachute just to reach the controls. Then you ask where the load is and you get told they haven't shown up yet.
An hour later they show up. Then they need teaching for another hour and all this time you're watching the weather blow in and the legality of the entire operation start to blow out. Then just when you're so cold you can hardly move your fingers (or so hot you're about to pass out) they say it's time to go.
You suddenly can't remember where you put anything and they start yelling at you like its your fault that everythikng's taking so long, even though it's almost going to be a night jump now.
You try and start, but forget to turn the mags on and it was the last start in the battery, so everyone has to get out and they remove the rear bulkhead and jump the a/c and you know they'll take the p1ss for years to come over that one and the student jumper's looking at you like you're the most frightening part of the jump.
You look at the sky and it's about a six thousand overcast by now. Then it's off you go and it's sheer boredom for about 15 minutes while you claw skywards. And then it starts "Five right. Ten left. Come on circle damn it" Except that you can't hear what they're saying cos of how noisy it is and how crappy the headset is and because ATC are warning you about a Jungle Jet heading your way and you're only about 100 above the overcast by now (even though you did of course find a hole to pop through legally
).
Then you're on target and the door opens and you start to freeze your nuts off, but it's not too bad because it blows away the smell of the farts you can almost taste. But then the bastard student doesn't want to jump and he grabs the yoke...and starts to pull on it. You break a couple of his fingers, but he doesn't notice and then the tandem master shoves them both out of the door, but not without his foot bending the bottom of it so that you have to hold it closed with the seat belt and keep your speed down in the descent in case it comes loose and takes off the tail (cos you'd get yelled at for that)
Finally you land and they're already drunk, but you still have to gas the a/c up and put her away. Then you get your paycheck and it's another empty envelope so you get in your car and drive the sixty minutes back home except that you have to stop off at the mall on the way to get your wife something to calm her down because you know her anger has been saved up all day.
So jet time...forget it. The real action is at the bottom of the ladder.
Like hauling freight for instance...
jump plane pilot You get a call on Saturday morning when you've already promised your wife you'll go xmas shopping with her. Then you slope off to the airport with the words "And don't come back." ringing in your ears. The drop zone is at least an hour away and the first thing you have to do is to get fuel in the old 182, and there's not even a ladder available. Next you have to hunt around for the pilot's rig because you're damn sure not going to fly without it ( in any event, the seat is welded in place and you need the parachute just to reach the controls. Then you ask where the load is and you get told they haven't shown up yet.
An hour later they show up. Then they need teaching for another hour and all this time you're watching the weather blow in and the legality of the entire operation start to blow out. Then just when you're so cold you can hardly move your fingers (or so hot you're about to pass out) they say it's time to go.
You suddenly can't remember where you put anything and they start yelling at you like its your fault that everythikng's taking so long, even though it's almost going to be a night jump now.
You try and start, but forget to turn the mags on and it was the last start in the battery, so everyone has to get out and they remove the rear bulkhead and jump the a/c and you know they'll take the p1ss for years to come over that one and the student jumper's looking at you like you're the most frightening part of the jump.
You look at the sky and it's about a six thousand overcast by now. Then it's off you go and it's sheer boredom for about 15 minutes while you claw skywards. And then it starts "Five right. Ten left. Come on circle damn it" Except that you can't hear what they're saying cos of how noisy it is and how crappy the headset is and because ATC are warning you about a Jungle Jet heading your way and you're only about 100 above the overcast by now (even though you did of course find a hole to pop through legally
).Then you're on target and the door opens and you start to freeze your nuts off, but it's not too bad because it blows away the smell of the farts you can almost taste. But then the bastard student doesn't want to jump and he grabs the yoke...and starts to pull on it. You break a couple of his fingers, but he doesn't notice and then the tandem master shoves them both out of the door, but not without his foot bending the bottom of it so that you have to hold it closed with the seat belt and keep your speed down in the descent in case it comes loose and takes off the tail (cos you'd get yelled at for that)
Finally you land and they're already drunk, but you still have to gas the a/c up and put her away. Then you get your paycheck and it's another empty envelope so you get in your car and drive the sixty minutes back home except that you have to stop off at the mall on the way to get your wife something to calm her down because you know her anger has been saved up all day.
So jet time...forget it. The real action is at the bottom of the ladder.
Like hauling freight for instance...
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.....the door opens and you start to freeze your nuts off
......and at some stage you have to threaten a down tools unless they feed you. A greasy bacon (fat mainly) bap is thrown into the cockpit and off you go again.
You're grateful for the refuelling stops, to get the blood flowing in your legs and in winter it's nice to be on the ground for a few minutes where it's a balmy 0 degrees centigrade.
Been there, got the t-shirt. Loved it !
It's one of the most satisfying, interesting, exciting, demanding types of flying I've ever done.
As I said in my previous post, the prestige is all backwards. Jump pilots (the really good ones, mind you) are amongst the elite, in my book.
[Sorry, rudev, you're probably thinking "WTF ??" Never get two jump pilots talking, they'll be swapping stories for hours!
]
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Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the coffee-mug that goes with it. As for unfreezing the nether regions, you'll have to ask Mrs Stable...
Even had to sleep in the a/c on occasions. I always enjoyed the discipline of dropping one-way RW'ers (STYLE for anyone who don't get it.) One out per pass, every run-in having to be precisely the same as the previous one, spotted from the ground.
Once had a guy grab the ignition key of the 206 and go out of the door with it. 10,000 and a deadstick.
Got my revenge on him another time. Put him out 8 miles short of the DZ!
Even had to sleep in the a/c on occasions. I always enjoyed the discipline of dropping one-way RW'ers (STYLE for anyone who don't get it.) One out per pass, every run-in having to be precisely the same as the previous one, spotted from the ground.
Once had a guy grab the ignition key of the 206 and go out of the door with it. 10,000 and a deadstick.
Got my revenge on him another time. Put him out 8 miles short of the DZ!
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Capt Stable Yes, I've heard of that little trick (the keys) Not sure I'd file it under humerous stories though. Perhaps the real answer is to bend the pin on his main (In light of recent events, that's not funny any more either though 
) Or as I heard someone once did, wrap a brick up in his main. (makes for an interesting opening)
In any event, it's a Cessna. I think they unly made six locks and they're all so worn out now that a screwdriver - or the Cessna key I keep on my keyring will do the job for me.
(Better at least than blowing the jugs of the engine as you shock cool it on the way down)
) Or as I heard someone once did, wrap a brick up in his main. (makes for an interesting opening)In any event, it's a Cessna. I think they unly made six locks and they're all so worn out now that a screwdriver - or the Cessna key I keep on my keyring
will do the job for me.(Better at least than blowing the jugs of the engine as you shock cool it on the way down)
I laugh when I see someone say flying a jet is harder than a turboprop. The example given, holding instructions given 3 miles from the fix on a modern jet, I aint figuring out squat, the FMS is figuring the hold entry, all I have to do is slow. The turboprop guy is having to do it all. I was on top of my game as far as proficiency when I was flying a Brasilia. I will never match those skills in a jet. As the saying goes, I may not be much of a jet pilot, but I can type a hundred words a minute. As far as systems knowledge, find me an electrical system as far as the Brasilias. Try explaining the workings of a prop to a guy who has never flown turboprops.
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West Coast wrote:
G'day West Coast,
Sorry but in the Saab 2000, they can program everything, the FMS even have the "hold at present position" possibility... They have auto-tunning for the VOR's, RTU's and so on. They also can fly a CatIIIa with a HUD, a piece of equipment you don't find in every jet... Except maybe the fighters and biz-jets.
If I look at the BAE 146(yeah, I know, it's not a real jet but an aircraft with 5 APU's ), we fly our holdings with the HDG mode, we have to tune all the VOR's for our navigation and to switch APU or engines on, we need to have a master degree in english engineering
...
So you're right West Coast, what's the deal about jets??? Only a cheap screen for a company who's looking for pilots, I guess
...
D_71
...the FMS is figuring the hold entry, all I have to do is slow. The turboprop guy is having to do it all...
Sorry but in the Saab 2000, they can program everything, the FMS even have the "hold at present position" possibility... They have auto-tunning for the VOR's, RTU's and so on. They also can fly a CatIIIa with a HUD, a piece of equipment you don't find in every jet... Except maybe the fighters and biz-jets.
If I look at the BAE 146(yeah, I know, it's not a real jet but an aircraft with 5 APU's
), we fly our holdings with the HDG mode, we have to tune all the VOR's for our navigation and to switch APU or engines on, we need to have a master degree in english engineering ...So you're right West Coast, what's the deal about jets??? Only a cheap screen for a company who's looking for pilots, I guess
...D_71
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Interesting comments about jet aircraft, and their operation.
Yes, newer types are very easy to fly, and if equipped with the latest avionics, even better.
Now having said this, would like to take a new jet Captain (say from a regional jet, or maybe an AirBus...or even perhaps a 757) and strap his backside in an old B707...say for example a -321 (no fans, JT4 engines), at MTOW, on a limiting runway (obstacles), and watch his reaction as the engines spool up to takeoff power (why does it take so long), then rolling down the runway and just at V1, number one dies (better have a really strong right leg), rotation and liftoff within the last 500 feet of runway, and find yourself climbing at V2, 300feet/min (if you're lucky), hoping to avoid the hill ahead.
Or---
Lucky you. All engines operating, and eight hours later, here you are requesting descent. ATC says standby (minutes pass) then 'cleared' to FL100.
Close the throttles, point the nose down...and hear the Flight Engineer have a fit because you forgot to keep the inboards spooled up so the turbocompressors could keep the cabin descending.
OK, at twenty miles from the airport, and still at FL100. Grab a fistfull of spoilers...oooh, that was not a good idea, now the aircraft is shaking so much, can't read the instruments.
Better idea would be to split the spoilers (inboards off)...ah, that's better, except that you both have to push the column forward to keep from pitching up (way up), while trimming the stab, opps, started the trim too late, now the jackscrew is stalled.
Now you've overdone it, too low on the glidepath, fistfull of throttles (WTHIH)...where is the thrust? It seems to take forever for 'em to spool up.
Gusty winds on final? No problem, the yaw damper will take care of this...wrong. It had to be switched OFF at 1000agl on landing, leaving you to arm wrestle the pig all the way to the ground. The 39inch ventral fin helped some, but not much.
In the slot at 500agl, across the fence at Vref+5, and hope to push (NOT kick) out the drift, and don't drop a wing much, otherwise you'll scrap a pod, and the Chief Pilot will not be pleased.
Better hope the brakes are up to the task, because reverse only makes noise...a lot.
Then, and only then...will you hope to understand the 'big deal about jets'
The really old ones were not easy. Combine that with guys who had only come from DC-6's or Connies (or like yours truly F.27's) before...interesting times indeed.
Good thing these are not around anymore, because many crashed, due in large part, to mis-handling, or trying for the dirty dive to the runway...which was bad news, if tried.
Yes, newer types are very easy to fly, and if equipped with the latest avionics, even better.
Now having said this, would like to take a new jet Captain (say from a regional jet, or maybe an AirBus...or even perhaps a 757) and strap his backside in an old B707...say for example a -321 (no fans, JT4 engines), at MTOW, on a limiting runway (obstacles), and watch his reaction as the engines spool up to takeoff power (why does it take so long), then rolling down the runway and just at V1, number one dies (better have a really strong right leg), rotation and liftoff within the last 500 feet of runway, and find yourself climbing at V2, 300feet/min (if you're lucky), hoping to avoid the hill ahead.
Or---
Lucky you. All engines operating, and eight hours later, here you are requesting descent. ATC says standby (minutes pass) then 'cleared' to FL100.
Close the throttles, point the nose down...and hear the Flight Engineer have a fit because you forgot to keep the inboards spooled up so the turbocompressors could keep the cabin descending.
OK, at twenty miles from the airport, and still at FL100. Grab a fistfull of spoilers...oooh, that was not a good idea, now the aircraft is shaking so much, can't read the instruments.
Better idea would be to split the spoilers (inboards off)...ah, that's better, except that you both have to push the column forward to keep from pitching up (way up), while trimming the stab, opps, started the trim too late, now the jackscrew is stalled.
Now you've overdone it, too low on the glidepath, fistfull of throttles (WTHIH)...where is the thrust? It seems to take forever for 'em to spool up.
Gusty winds on final? No problem, the yaw damper will take care of this...wrong. It had to be switched OFF at 1000agl on landing, leaving you to arm wrestle the pig all the way to the ground. The 39inch ventral fin helped some, but not much.
In the slot at 500agl, across the fence at Vref+5, and hope to push (NOT kick) out the drift, and don't drop a wing much, otherwise you'll scrap a pod, and the Chief Pilot will not be pleased.
Better hope the brakes are up to the task, because reverse only makes noise...a lot.
Then, and only then...will you hope to understand the 'big deal about jets'
The really old ones were not easy. Combine that with guys who had only come from DC-6's or Connies (or like yours truly F.27's) before...interesting times indeed.
Good thing these are not around anymore, because many crashed, due in large part, to mis-handling, or trying for the dirty dive to the runway...which was bad news, if tried.
Last edited by 411A; 20th Dec 2003 at 03:45.