Smoke Hoods
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Smoke Hoods
After re-reading the AIR into the Manchester 737 fire on 22/8/85 as a result of another thread (in cabin crew section on bravery) I was wondering what had happened to the AIR recommendation "CAA should urgently give consideration to the formulation of a requirment for the provision of smokehoods/masks to afford passengers an effective level of protection during fires which provide a toxic environment within the aircraft cabin"?
Also what is the current view as to whether this would be a good idea?
I also seem to remember somewhere that such hoods are available for general purchase, and indeed are carried by some frequent travellers, to the apparent discomfort of certain other travellers who see them. Any info/views?
Also what is the current view as to whether this would be a good idea?
I also seem to remember somewhere that such hoods are available for general purchase, and indeed are carried by some frequent travellers, to the apparent discomfort of certain other travellers who see them. Any info/views?
Last edited by Legal Flyer; 29th Aug 2003 at 05:38.
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I'l bear it in mind next time I'm in the supermarket - but how is it going to meet the CAA requirements for visibility ?!! Won't all that opaque foil get in the way??
Seriously, does anyone know what did happen to the recommendation, and where smoke hoods can be purchased from.
If you have read the AIR on the Manchester fire lives might well have been saved had passengers had hoods. There again even the rear attendants never managed to get theirs on.
Seriously, does anyone know what did happen to the recommendation, and where smoke hoods can be purchased from.
If you have read the AIR on the Manchester fire lives might well have been saved had passengers had hoods. There again even the rear attendants never managed to get theirs on.
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If you want one, most of the GA suppliers like Transair, harry mendelsons, AFE etc will have them - I've definatly seen them in their catalogues.
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My oppinion of donning a smokehood, is that they are a waste of time for pax. As crew, The most important thing in an emergency is to get the pax out ASAP. This is not going to happen if they are all trying to put on smoke hoods. They will have no idea how to put them on, and if they are busy faffing around with that, they are not moving through the cabin to get out! I think they would be a waste of time for pax.
If I remember correctly, the CAA found that they would be of no use in an already smoke filled cabin. This is because if they are donning them in a smoke filled environment, they hood will already be filled with toxic smoke which they would be breathing in until they evetually get filtered air. therefore., breathing more intense toxic fumes.
If I remember correctly, the CAA found that they would be of no use in an already smoke filled cabin. This is because if they are donning them in a smoke filled environment, they hood will already be filled with toxic smoke which they would be breathing in until they evetually get filtered air. therefore., breathing more intense toxic fumes.
Bought Chemiscape smoke hoods some years ago. They've expired now as the activated charcoal/carbon eventually loses its absorbency.
Took one out of the pouch to practice with and it's quite the fiddly deal. If you do get any smoke hood, the time to figure it out is well before any emergency.
Don't sneer at the turkey-sized oven bags. They seem able to get you by for about two minutes -- a vital difference in an emergency evacuation.
A rubber band of the right diameter would free a hand, but may add delay.
Remember that home and hotel fires claim more lives than a/c and keep enough turkey bags handy
Took one out of the pouch to practice with and it's quite the fiddly deal. If you do get any smoke hood, the time to figure it out is well before any emergency.
Don't sneer at the turkey-sized oven bags. They seem able to get you by for about two minutes -- a vital difference in an emergency evacuation.
A rubber band of the right diameter would free a hand, but may add delay.
Remember that home and hotel fires claim more lives than a/c and keep enough turkey bags handy
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LF, it was a serious suggestion and one I picked up at a safety conference from (if I remember correctly) renowned aviatrix Wally Funk.
The idea is that they are less expensive, not life limited, less bulky and easily obtainable from the local supermarket - and yes, they're transparent. They work on the principal that you can rebreath about half of what you exhale, that and all you need is a couple of extra minutes to evacuate.
She put one over her head, cinched up the opening around her throat and walked slowly around the room where the meeting was being held, talking into a microphone all the time. Quite an impressive demonstration.
Got to be a turkey bag though as they're designed to withstand the heat.
The idea is that they are less expensive, not life limited, less bulky and easily obtainable from the local supermarket - and yes, they're transparent. They work on the principal that you can rebreath about half of what you exhale, that and all you need is a couple of extra minutes to evacuate.
She put one over her head, cinched up the opening around her throat and walked slowly around the room where the meeting was being held, talking into a microphone all the time. Quite an impressive demonstration.
Got to be a turkey bag though as they're designed to withstand the heat.
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I used to work in a large petro-chemicals plant and had to do regular emergency procedure training courses. The fire evacuation drills included escaping from a smoke filled room. Without a smoke hood the disorientation was complete and almost instantaneous (not to mention the discomfort involved). With a smoke hood the task of "saving" ourselves was easy. I never fly without one.
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Onan & RBF
My apologies - I thought the turkey bag was a joke but now I think about it, the idea makes sense - I had a foil one last Christmas hence my comment!
From the replies posted so far the jury seems to be out about whether it would be a good idea for smoke hoods to be provided for all pax, but at least they, and the alternative
can be purchased.
I once did a fire fighting course at Rosyth with the navy (oil/chemical fires) and again the message was that anything that stops you inhaling the fumes and provides some protection from heat may well give you the few seconds you need to escape from danger. It is doing nothing (or being caught up in the panic of others) that is usually the killer. As the AIR into the Manchester fire pointed out - exiting through the dense smoke down the one slide that was activated at the rear of the plane was probably a viable option, but (from what little is known about events at the rear of the plane) it would appear that no one tried it,and no one made it from the rear of the cabin, despite the crew managing to get the door open. It was in fact the first slide activated by a few seconds. The (natural) reaction was to head away from the smoke, with the tragic consequences that followed.
My apologies - I thought the turkey bag was a joke but now I think about it, the idea makes sense - I had a foil one last Christmas hence my comment!
From the replies posted so far the jury seems to be out about whether it would be a good idea for smoke hoods to be provided for all pax, but at least they, and the alternative
can be purchased.I once did a fire fighting course at Rosyth with the navy (oil/chemical fires) and again the message was that anything that stops you inhaling the fumes and provides some protection from heat may well give you the few seconds you need to escape from danger. It is doing nothing (or being caught up in the panic of others) that is usually the killer. As the AIR into the Manchester fire pointed out - exiting through the dense smoke down the one slide that was activated at the rear of the plane was probably a viable option, but (from what little is known about events at the rear of the plane) it would appear that no one tried it,and no one made it from the rear of the cabin, despite the crew managing to get the door open. It was in fact the first slide activated by a few seconds. The (natural) reaction was to head away from the smoke, with the tragic consequences that followed.
Videos of cabin smoke show that it streams upward from the source to the ceiling where it progresses laterally fore and aft while filling the remainder of the cabin from the ceiling downwards.
The smoke can kill within 30-40 secs of breathing while it takes upward of a minute or two to exit the smoke.
Seems like lots of time to don a smoke hood for the passenger who has one.
As to visibility, it ain't going to be easy seeing horizontally at standing height so either way one should be looking down at the lighted strips on the floor.
The smoke can kill within 30-40 secs of breathing while it takes upward of a minute or two to exit the smoke.
Seems like lots of time to don a smoke hood for the passenger who has one.
As to visibility, it ain't going to be easy seeing horizontally at standing height so either way one should be looking down at the lighted strips on the floor.
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was one of the points of Manchester not that the soot had effectively blinded people, and bunged up both ears and noses with a solid plug of rubbery material. so if you have a smoke hood/ turkey bag(like it!) could make all the diference.
Its also a very good point about hotels. we are at far more risk as crew in hotels than in aircraft.
Its also a very good point about hotels. we are at far more risk as crew in hotels than in aircraft.
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Following up on recent posts - what is current cabin crew training when there is known risk of smoke in the cabin - at Manchester the exit where the smoke originated was viable, what may well have led to the tragic consequences was everyone naturally heading for the over wing and forward exits - is the advice to put pax through the nearest exists even if smoke affected or to direct them to the nearest clear exits - with smoke hoods the nearest exist would possibly be safest (though how is one to know?)
In the above situation what is current practice with cabin crew training?
In the above situation what is current practice with cabin crew training?
Last edited by Legal Flyer; 31st Aug 2003 at 06:24.
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Legal Flyer
I think you will find that CC are trained to assess each exit, if they can see it is clear they will use it, if they see it is blocked due to fire outside they will direct pax to other exits. In the MAN case I suspect, due to the smoke, they decided the exit was unuseable, they had no way of knowing otherwise.
Any CC professionals care to comment?
BlueEagle - Moderator.
Any CC professionals care to comment?
BlueEagle - Moderator.
Last edited by BlueEagle; 31st Aug 2003 at 19:08.
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Smokehoods
If you've ever tried to don a smoke hood you realise it takes time for instance the Drager one you have to remove it from the box and its foil packet and then open it up get it on your head and for the girls make sure all your hair is tucked in and pull your quick start handle and wrap the straps around your waste. Now can you imagine a packed aircraft all trying to do this while its filling with smoke!! Ive had passengers who struggled with their seat belt under normal circumstances let alone an emergency!
The best thing to do is get low on the cabin floor and use something like the headrest to cover your mouth (wont give you much protection but some). Smoke fills (in most cases) from the roof down if you can get an exit open (i.e clear of smoke and fire) and keep the magic 90 seconds for the evacuation all on board stand a chance to survive. But then you have things like shock etc.. which all adds to fatalities.
The best thing to do is get low on the cabin floor and use something like the headrest to cover your mouth (wont give you much protection but some). Smoke fills (in most cases) from the roof down if you can get an exit open (i.e clear of smoke and fire) and keep the magic 90 seconds for the evacuation all on board stand a chance to survive. But then you have things like shock etc.. which all adds to fatalities.
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Smoke Hoods
As a Cabin Crew Line trainer i agree with Biscuit Chuckers comments.
The airline i work for trains cabin crew to get a smoke hood prepeared in any emergency situation and to remove it from it's casing and place in an over head locker closest to them, so that should the situation arise on landing (of a smoke filled cabin) then the equipment is close to hand for the evacuation!. (But i must remind you that if the smoke is to thick and the flames are too hot Cabin Crew will have left the A/C)
However, when this kind of emergency occurs on taxiing i feel i would be more inclined to (like Biscuit Chucker says) get the PAX off the A/C as quickly as possible rather than shouting for passengers to 'grab your smoke hood and get out!'.
If PAX were able to have a smoke hood this would be an absolute nightmare to explain during a safety demonstration and the chances of everyone being able to understand the use of them is very slim indeed.
The airline i work for trains cabin crew to get a smoke hood prepeared in any emergency situation and to remove it from it's casing and place in an over head locker closest to them, so that should the situation arise on landing (of a smoke filled cabin) then the equipment is close to hand for the evacuation!. (But i must remind you that if the smoke is to thick and the flames are too hot Cabin Crew will have left the A/C)
However, when this kind of emergency occurs on taxiing i feel i would be more inclined to (like Biscuit Chucker says) get the PAX off the A/C as quickly as possible rather than shouting for passengers to 'grab your smoke hood and get out!'.
If PAX were able to have a smoke hood this would be an absolute nightmare to explain during a safety demonstration and the chances of everyone being able to understand the use of them is very slim indeed.
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If PAX were able to have a smoke hood this would be an absolute nightmare to explain during a safety demonstration and the chances of everyone being able to understand the use of them is very slim indeed.
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Many thanks for all the replies which I have just had chance to catch up on.
It looks as if the points that Biscuit Chucker made form the consensus of cabin crew views - ie the idea of trying to explain, still less get passengers to put on, smoke hoods would be a non-starter and counter productive to getting people out ASAP.
That said, if you read the tests that followed the Manchester fire as part of the AIR what was surprising (see the report) is just how long smoke smoke hoods could provide protection for - some as long as 30 minutes - a lot more than the 90 seconds to get out.
If there is already a real risk of smoke before landing, why should there not at least be smoke hoods available, which could be got out - yes there would be a risk of chaos, but presumably the same applies to ditching in water - I assume that trying to get a whole cabin full of pax to put on a lifejacket (reaching under seats etc for those who had bothered to listen to the safety announcements) would be equally chaotic and indeed the odd pax might even inflate it in the aircraft etc, increasing the risk of obstruction.
Incidentally what about smoke in the cabin in flight - I assume a very rare occurence (has there ever been a major fire?) but there are regular threads about diversions due to smells of smoke etc
The cost of smoke hoods is very small (though they have expiry dates on the filters like most safety equipment). If they are not onboard (other than for crew) the option of their use simply does not arise.
One point that I do not believe anyone has been able to answer is why the AIR recommendation as to smoke hoods was not implemented (see the quote at the start of the thread). I assume that it was for the reasons identified by Biscuit Chucker - ie the cons outweigh the pros.
One final question - if you were cabin crew (but flying as a pax), and smoke was filling the cabin, would you not wish you had a smoke hood.....?
If yes, is the true answer that it is all about whether pax could be sufficiently educated for it to be a help rather than a hinderance.
It looks as if the points that Biscuit Chucker made form the consensus of cabin crew views - ie the idea of trying to explain, still less get passengers to put on, smoke hoods would be a non-starter and counter productive to getting people out ASAP.
That said, if you read the tests that followed the Manchester fire as part of the AIR what was surprising (see the report) is just how long smoke smoke hoods could provide protection for - some as long as 30 minutes - a lot more than the 90 seconds to get out.
If there is already a real risk of smoke before landing, why should there not at least be smoke hoods available, which could be got out - yes there would be a risk of chaos, but presumably the same applies to ditching in water - I assume that trying to get a whole cabin full of pax to put on a lifejacket (reaching under seats etc for those who had bothered to listen to the safety announcements) would be equally chaotic and indeed the odd pax might even inflate it in the aircraft etc, increasing the risk of obstruction.
Incidentally what about smoke in the cabin in flight - I assume a very rare occurence (has there ever been a major fire?) but there are regular threads about diversions due to smells of smoke etc
The cost of smoke hoods is very small (though they have expiry dates on the filters like most safety equipment). If they are not onboard (other than for crew) the option of their use simply does not arise.
One point that I do not believe anyone has been able to answer is why the AIR recommendation as to smoke hoods was not implemented (see the quote at the start of the thread). I assume that it was for the reasons identified by Biscuit Chucker - ie the cons outweigh the pros.
One final question - if you were cabin crew (but flying as a pax), and smoke was filling the cabin, would you not wish you had a smoke hood.....?
If yes, is the true answer that it is all about whether pax could be sufficiently educated for it to be a help rather than a hinderance.
Lets just call a cabin filling with smoke a Darwin opportunity.
If you have gone to the trouble of obtaining a smokehood or turkey bag and put it on, you can wait 10-20 seconds for the people between you and the best exit to collapse and then make your way out over the bodies.
Once at the exit in breatheable air, it'll be easier to live with yourself later if you drag out as many live ones as you can.
If you have gone to the trouble of obtaining a smokehood or turkey bag and put it on, you can wait 10-20 seconds for the people between you and the best exit to collapse and then make your way out over the bodies.
Once at the exit in breatheable air, it'll be easier to live with yourself later if you drag out as many live ones as you can.
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This is a pretty good product.
I carry one, but thankfully I have yet to have to use it.
http://www.evac-u8.com/evac-u8/index.htm
I carry one, but thankfully I have yet to have to use it.
http://www.evac-u8.com/evac-u8/index.htm