Air Uganda, crew forgot to set flaps?
 

:sad:

Ooooops....

checklist? what's that?
 

Great idea! Really cuts drag between brake release and V1, resulting in a shorter takeoff roll by, ohhh, say....35 feet. :eek:

They'd obviously read on PPRuNe about the short-field technique (and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here by calling it a technique) of deploying the flaps during the takeoff roll.

Move on, nothing to see... :rolleyes:

Reminds me of the time I was a SLF on a Navy C-9 at NQX and they made a no flap takeoff! :eek:

I don't know to this day whether or not that was an allowed configuration, but somehow, I doubt it was. At least they handled it well, but we were really moving at liftoff.:confused:

Wasn't it AF 707 many moons ago who did that?

Perhaps the SLF should have told the cabin staff about it :E

The SLF just care about cheap tix.

But maybe the T/O config warning was in a working state opposite to Spanair accident, same reason.

Based on that video clip, it was 15 seconds from beginning of forward movement to beginning of flaps beginning to lower.

I seem to recall a 727, Delta, in DFW, (Corrected to 1988!) that didn't lower flaps on takeoff ... flight ended in tears. :{

Delta 1141. One would hope that the lesson learned from that crash might be standard training fodder.

Always surprises me that I have photos of two seperate US Airways B767-200s heading across the pond departing with no flaps !
Had I been on board I suspect I would have been bricking it!

What's that light spot thingy on the ground that moves from the piano keys towards the trailing edge between 12-17 seconds on the film??

Don't know 767,

but on A300 taking off with flaps was very seldom, mostly just slats.

Nairobi - November 1974 - Lufthansa 747 crashed after take-off because crew failed to set LE flaps.

I realize that you may possibly not be a pilot but flaps 1 is a legal takeoff setting in the 767. The flaps stay up but the slats are extended to the takeoff position.

Here's an example on a takeoff out of PHL:

Likely flaps/slats were set when the takeoff configuration warning horn probably sounded as the thrust levers were set for TO thrust.

Re, ". . . nothing to see", that's exactly the outcome the system was designed for so there's a great deal to see. The system worked as designed and likely prevented another Spanair.

What are the advantages of a flapless or reduced flap takeoff and when would you elect to carry one out?

Same for landing config?

That is probably how it has been handled many times in the 'old days' here in the U.S. Often the takeoff checklist itself was completed on the roll by 80 knots.

However in these enlightened times with FOQA, FDM, ASAP and all the rest you are probably better off to do a low speed reject, find out for sure why the horn went off, put it in the logbook or not depending on the carrier and try it again after being sure you don't need a sign off. And do a mea culpa with all crewmembers on ASAP and NASA reports to CYA.

Moving the flap lever on the takeoff roll on a modern plane causes all heck to break loose with the warnings as these guys at Charlie West found out:

Pilots Engaged in Small Talk Before Jet Botched Takeoff - WSJ.com

The Captain moved the flap lever from flaps 8 to flaps 20 on the takeoff roll and botched a reject over V1, but was saved by the crunchy EMAS at the end of the mountaintop runway.

We used to do flapless in the Middle East on the BN2 Islander as it gave a higher speed at rotation and we were slightly better off if we lost an engine. Nothing illegal about a flapless takeoff if it can be done safely, within the AFM and SOPs.

OK:
PJ
Thank you both. :ok:

This is obvious to most of us.

Here are just 5, of the many things that are vitally important, in attempting to get airborne.

F. Flaps.

A. Air-brakes

R. Correct Runway.

T. Trims set.

S. Speeds Bugged.

Regardless what is written on your company checklist, it only takes 30 seconds of farting around, to do this extra vital check. There are usually,no second chances. That extra 30 seconds of FARTS could save the day.

If we fly long enough and often enough, something vital will get missed during the DVA's

My 2 cents worth.

More flaps reduce takeoff distance at the expense of reduced initial climb performance. Less flaps improve initial climb performance at the expense of increased takeoff distance.

The same is true regarding flap setting for landing. More flap = less runway required but less climb; less flap = better missed approach/rejected landing climb but more runway required. Usually this is less of an issue, but once in a while a reduced flap setting is required due to obstacles in the missed approach path.

The flap setting used is based on whether runway length or climb performance is the most limiting factor.

When I saw the post accident photos there was something that bother me. So a few years later when I attended the NTSB aircraft accident school I brought up my inquiry.

When viewing the left front side of the fuselage, the front left main cabin door was open. That in itself would not be that remarkable, except that the way the fuselage was laying on the ground, the bottom of the door was buried in the dirt. There was no way for that door to be in that position unless it was opened before the aircraft came to a complete stop.

The Flight Attendant sitting in the jump seat next to the door swore that she did not open the door until the aircraft came to a complete stop. Then there seemed to be some confusing on just who actually opened the door.

After some reviewing all the information we had access to, we decided that the FA sitting next to door had to have opened that door before the aircraft came to a stop, but that she just didn't remember it.

I went to 727 type school shortly after that accident, you can figure out the one thing that was really drilled into us.

But you are quite correct OK, if they would have left it on the ground until they ran out of runway, then rotated, it would have flown. Same type deal with the AA DC-10 accident at ORD, if they would have just held the attitude they had, it would have flown.

But, that's all 20/20 hindsight, easy to say or write when you're sitting at a desk.

lights
 

the spot is the retractable wing landings lights moving from stowed (light facing down) to extended position.

They set the flap correctly however they managed to isolate the leading edge bleed air completely therefore preventing the leading edge from extending. At the time there was no indication of LE position to let the crew know.

Orion and BobnSpike,
If I may, another reason is to preserve the undercarriage and the airframe. On a long runway the aircraft will probably eventually get airborne but at a much higher speed. Unless the runway is glass-smooth every little surface irregularity will be very forcefully transmitted to the hull.
On the 767 mentioned earlier there must be a weight/lift/temp etc curve that allows the flapless takeoff procedure, i.e. with certain weights and on certain runways it's allowed.
My only experience of such a takeoff was years ago on a Vasp 737-200, GIG/CGH, between 30% and 50% full. It took ages, rattled and shook like a Model-T Ford on a rocky road, overhead bins opened and handluggage fell out.
I am not a pilot nor am I any longer associated with aviation. But I'd venture a guess that a takeoff like the one just mentioned would take a toll on the hydraulics - and much more - equivalent to several years of normal operation.

Respectfully, airframe wear and tear is not considered in takeoff or landing performance calculations in the commercial world. It's about performance and payload.

I can only imagine what would happen if something similar had been done at my company. What the hell was this crew thinking?

At the very least, I'd be running everything after the after start checklist. If you forgot to set the flaps, what else may you have forgotten?

BelArgUSA used to warn to always check the three killers Trim, Flaps and Spoilers!!! Screw SOPS there's NEVER an excuse for this!!!:=:=:=:=

http://www.pprune.org/3648705-post15.html

Where's BelArgUSA? Haven't seen him posting in a while.

I'm not quite sure I think he's ok fron some of our past PMs

I really miss his wise and informative posts...:(

We got totally distracted on the descent in a 757 one day and at 200 ft did my usual gear, flaps and speed brake armed check. No speedbrakes armed and not one item had been done on the mechanical checklist. Since the FO was landing I whipped through the items in about 10 seconds before touchdown. I couldn't believe we forgot the checklist but we did.

Config warning...
 

one of our stop items. Why the hell did they carry on?

Bubbers44

We've all made those types of errors; we've all gotten something into the red arc on one of the guages...but we must never do what this crew did as it defies airmanship totally...There's no excuse for forgettingto set TO flaps---NONE

dwshimoda ...Config warning should NOT be relied upon it has failed in the past---I forgot the case but best to pretend there is no such animal IMHO

Why did they continue?...They were muppets!!!...:*

Parabella and bobnspike, thanks for that

I disagree. You can forget to do it for any number of reasons. If something interrupts your normal flow, and things get rushed after that, it can happen. I can imagine where you reach for the flap lever, then ATC calls with a funny request, then your hand never gets back to the lever.

What is unforgivable IMO is that they continued the takeoff.

Check Airman I disagree

yes, In some cases distractions can interrupt a flow or cause you to miss a minor item...that shouldn't kill anyone

But IMHO if it's critical Item in an extremely critical but optional phase of flight---You make sure you check those critical items, if you have to re-run a check list then you do...but Pitot heat,if not automatic, Anti Ice pressuriztion performance or whatever else may kill you must never be comprimised just to make a takeoff---up aginst slots and duty time limitations? oh well company's problem better late than dead---:cool:

Now right before a takeoff we know that there are three well known killers--- airmanship dictates that you STOP THAT AIRPLANE!!! and check them...whether you miss your slot, or not...we've repeated these mistakes long enough to know they can be unforgiving...

WE NEED TO JUST STOP!

He didn't Say you can't forget to set flap, he said there is no excuse, and he's right. Actually....I can think of one excuse, if you joined a rubbish airline that paid lip service to training and safety when you were 19 years old, and continued through to a command in an airline devoid of any decent safety culture, and then forgot to set the flaps, I would say it is your management teams fault for not wearing the cost of decent training.

But first and foremost it is your own bloody fault and responsibility that you are in the company you are in and you should leave immediately. If management and safety culture are bad, apply for a job somewhere else. Before you get killed/fried/blamed for things that are beyond your control.

^^^^ Like what he said, And don't forget that the tyro Aviator is able to tap into many lifetimes' wisdom and experience, via PPRuNe,just for the cost of an internet connection.

probably the best bargain in their lifetime.. As the man said....NO EXCUSE.