Slightly off-topic, but this seems as good a time and place as any to ask a question that I've wondered about for a while. On take off in an MD-8x series aircraft, there seems to be a point after the engines have spooled up when the engine note suddenly changes - it's audible 42s into this video. What is it that's going on that causes this to happen?

I pretty much agree with you fox niner but I can imagine some countries ( I'm thinking Asia and Africa ) where the actual culture of the country would mean that pilot didn't even know they were in a rubbish airline. They get good grades at school or more likely have the right surname, and then get into a national carrier that is corrupt and recurrent simulator sessions are a complete sham. But I agree in most cases, there is no excuse for not setting flap. especially if you are the Captain and therefore managing the tempo and priorities of the flight.

Sky pilot
If I remember correctly the air con switches off and doesn't come back on to above 500ft?
Take off performance up to and including 2nd segment in the event of an engine failure.

How condescendent towards other countries pilots..do you listen to yourself when you say such junk?:yuk:

Hetfield, I find that a most offensive remark. I am much more concerned with safety than the cost of my ticket which is why I prefer to save up, pay a little more and fly only with reputable airlines with a good safety record not those with a dodgy reputation but tickets which cost a mere handful of beans. Your attitude towards the people who effectively keep you employed is disgraceful and whether or not you intended it to do so, reflects badly on the airline which employs you. :*

At least 2 DC-9/MD-80 series crashed because of it ... NWA in Detroit and Spanair in Madrid ... by the way, in both cases the TO warning system didn't work.

Defecto , I don't think it's junk, that's why I say it :)
I'm not sure why you or anyone would be offended by it, it's just life, some countries ( and therefore some airlines) have major problems with corruption and safety is one of the first casualties. I mentioned Asia and Africa because I have lived in both those places while flying. Why does it upset you that I mentioned it? Anyway, don't get too worried, it was just an opinion, have a fun day , Framer

@DX WOMBAT

Offensive? Maybe....

Couple years ago there was one of these candid camera shows on tv. They had a 737 (GERMANIA) with no seats (maintenance event, btw) instead on the ceiling a pair of handrails was installed, like in a bus.

They offered a refund of 25 Euros to do the two hour trip. Out of about 100 pax only 5 denied.

hamil:

Whilst I appreciate why that system is in place, I find it hard to excuse professional pilots not properly performing checklists in multi crew aircraft. I am glad to see that whatever alerted the crew in the case under discussion go them to lower the flaps, but the part that gets me is: did these gents actually complete the take off checklist before beginning take off roll?

If not, there is an issue that needs to be addressed here.

Cockpit discipline.

that tone chance around 42 seconds heard in this video is when the autothrottle switch is engaged.

in this video you can break down the throttle sequence in pieces.
from when the video starts, the throttle position is in IDLE.

then at the first chance of pitch, the pf moves the throttles from IDLE to Flight idle to get the initial spool up.

there after he slowly starts to increase throttle position to get to EPR 40% (where you stabelize engines and turn on autothrottle), but here in this range he received the Takeoff warning stating: FLAPS. letting you know that your flaps/slats are not in the correct position. they quickly put the flaps, noticing the CAWS (Central Aural Warning System) went silent; takeoff config is good, and then proceeded with autothrottle to takeoff power.

from what i see in this video, that the crew that day did miss several boeing recommendations. on taxi out, they were supposed to set flaps. in the taxi out checklist they should confirm flaps by doing a takeoff config test, and the before take off checklist as well with a visual gauge check.
they probably didn't do ANY checklist on this particular flight.
Atleast not an "post-spanair crash md80 checklist".:ugh:

A normal flaps 5 t/o from Embakasi

If I recall, in the case of NWA at Detroit the TO config warning did sound, but this still didn't trigger the crew to the non deployment of F&S.

This is incorrect.
From Wiki:

BS
 

Nice ones, framer and Hetfield. Two truthful statements attracting impassioned politically-correct nonsense responses. The world has many people who cannot bear to hear the truth if it is remotely uncomfortable to them. (My airline management contains such individuals, who live in a fantasy world exemplified by the Emperor's New Clothes.

Sorry, Phil, but the final report says that the CAWS - takeoff configuration warning mode was inop and, therefore, it did not inform the crew that the airplane was not properly configured for departure.

However, I suppose in NBO it saved the day ... fortunately.

Flaps overrated?
 

Not relevant to current passenger jets, but if you read the book "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo" by Ted Lawson (who was a pilot on the Doolittle raid of WWII) he forgot to set the flaps of his B-25 while taking off from the Hornet. Only realized it when he put his hand down after takeoff to raise the flaps.

Pretty amazing that you had a medium bomber that was both very heavily loaded and never designed to take off from a carrier (no catapults in those days), that was still able to get into the air without flaps.

SeenItAll That was a good flying story they were lucky for the prop slipstream that's for sure...:\:\:\

while I don't think they should be sacked retrained definitely...but this is such fundemental airmanship that I feel it's like being trained on when to tie your shoes....and if it was company culture, training or SOPS then retraining may be futile...the captain should definitely switch seats---at the very least

The Mysterons?;)

I agree the Captain should switch seats.If it was culture and training then it´s the leadership that is lacking and the CEO or CP should switch seats as well. It would take an external investigation to come up with that recomendation though....not very likely.

DX wombat, I don't know why you're getting so hot under the colar. I too am not led by price and I too am very selective about who I fly with. Nevertheless, I think it's a fair statement to suggest that most (not all) passengers flying LCC and or cowboy outfits are only looking for the cheapest deals.

BA 737 BCN/LGW a few years back - take off roll started then stopped, then the slats set and off we went.

General practice on the airlines I fly mostly BA/EZ is to set these before the start of taxi.

If one day I notice it hasn't been done should I be up out of my seat? I think so as it would be a departure from the norm.

How do we know that pax on the Spanair noticed this and did nothing? From what I read there were quite a few staff on board as well.

gcal...
 

In certain circumstances, eg a contaminated taxi way, it is SOP in our company not to put the flaps out until cleared to line up, so it's not always as clear cut as you may think. Also, so TO flap settings may look like little or no flap is deployed, so I'd be very careful before you take action and make the cabin un-secure, thereby creating an RTO.

This has been covered in a previous thread.

I do know what the slats/flaps should look like on the aircraft I fly on most often, and, when it is normal practice to have them deployed.
If, in normal circumstances, we were approaching the hold and I could see no such settings, then that would make me very worried indeed.
Making a cabin insecure would be not very high on my list of concerns.

A Robin I flew occasionally for leisure some years ago had leading edge slats - they'd retract on the take off run, quite normal and harmless but still a tad disconcerting.

If I were a punter and observed such a thing; I'd immediately make the cabin very very insecure anyway I could!!!!
like the movie...I want to live!!!


:eek::eek::eek:

So it's -5 celsius, snowing, and the taxi ways are contaminated. Approaching the hold (assuming you know it is the hold, as you can't see forward) you decide it's up to you to make the cabin unsecure? What about de / anti icing and then setting the flaps? And what if it's a Flap 5 take-off - or whatever the lowest setting is on your particular type? Perhaps even LE only, as you're sat at the back you don't see the TE move.

I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm just saying that there's often a lot more going on. If the aircraft started to accelerate with engines stable, then yes - stand up, run around, open a door, whatever. But until that point you don't know where you are or what's going on and are second guessing the crew, procedures, TO config horn, and a whole host of other items.

Sir I'm certain I'd be able to excercise discretion and have the discernment to recognize if a crew seriously F-ed up something

I'd know a problem if a saw one---I'm sure he meant the same although I see your point but I can recognize a reduced flap setting too--- but if the engines are spooled it may already be too late...the crew already has brain-in- the-butt syndrome... I'd have to assume that more bad decisions are to follow --as this present case aptly illustrates...anyway rather be safe than sorry...even if I were completely wrong!!! at least I wont be dead wrong...:\

Besides most SOPS set the flaps well before crossing the line--as we've learned through blood and tears that that way is generally the best...;)-

Just one last thing...pretend that the TO config warning doesn't exists---like TCAS is just a last resort...and can fail at the worst time...don't rely on that... pretend it's not a real thing and operate in accordance!!!

:suspect:

If no one found out and there was no monitoring, I'd say very few---that being said- it's one of those thing where the real answer is just don't duit!!!

edit: That's why they are monitored!

:}

We brief for an RTO and to vacate the runway after a config warning, the reason being that if you've forgotten something as important as flaps or speedbrakes, what ELSE have you done/not done that you're not aware of?

As far as reporting it, for us it's going to show up on the trace, so no option there. Better to cover yourself with a report...

And just to mention since deicing was was mentioned before... That's why most carriers have separate procedures and checklists for ground icing conditions...but even if they didn't those three critical items should be included in your personal checks...similar to verifying the RWY is correct and clear..it falls under the general rubric of airmanship irrespective of SOPs

'Sir I'm certain I'd be able to excercise discretion and have the discernment to recognize if a crew seriously F-ed up something'

Exactly and thank you...