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Just been on a volcanologist site, can't see many posts about how you should fly an ILS, strange that. I know that when most of you button pushers recieve your licence it instantly turns you into a world expert on any subject, but maybe you should let the EXPERTS deal with this one for a change, hope springs eternal!
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airspace closed 2000nm from the core.....whole thing is fast becoming a circus as the boffins decide what actually defines contamination re safety of flight.
In the mean time, businesses are dying, perishable goods are rotting, passengers stranded, train, road and rail clogged, airline jobs at risk plus a raft of ancilary jobs.....unless the eu give airlines a helping hand which I doubt they will, there are operators out there that are going to sink while the what defines contamination debate rolls on. Airlines have given subtle hints like BA, LUFT that their test flights went without a hitch but have their hands tied. |
Liam548
What was the density of the ash cloud that the BA B747 flew through? |
We won't be getting the data because NATS, have completed their Pavlovian "Volcanic ash means we must close all airspace just like in the simulator" response, have retired for a cup of coffee and a congratulatory slap on the back. Only now are they realising how dreadfully exposed they are in having no idea whatsoever as to what would be considered 'safe' levels of ash which allow them to reopen the airspace.
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Originally Posted by CargoOne
It doesn't matter how big will be the bill for overhaul and if there will be blades shortage.
It's the choice of going bankrupt now, with equipment ready to go when ash disperses, financing becomes available and new airlines arise from the ashes of old, or going bankrupt a few months later with equipment that no money will help get airborne. Of course that as a pilot I have a vested interest of going via the first path and my interests are at odds with airline CEO. (S)he can find as well or even better paid job at any other industry, I can not. Company that changes top brass rapidly, imports them and rewards short term financial results only, can not expect them to have long term company benefit as their top priority. |
Originally Posted by Hand Solo
(Post 5644689)
We won't be getting the data because NATS, have completed their Pavlovian "Volcanic ash means we must close all airspace just like in the simulator" response, have retired for a cup of coffee and a congratulatory slap on the back. Only now are they realising how dreadfully exposed they are in having no idea whatsoever as to what would be considered 'safe' levels of ash which allow them to reopen the airspace.
BD |
It's interesting that NATS effectively closed the airspace by imposing a 'zero traffic flow rate' ,without any consultation with any other Air Traffic providers. Also, no restrictions imposed by the CAA.
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I wonder about the first brave pilot who suggested that you could really fly into clouds or in IMC an hundred years ago. If there was a PPRuNe back then, what would the reactions have been?
-LUNACY -MOODY FLEW THROUGH ASH AND PLUMMETED -METEOROLIGIST DON'T TELL YOU HOW TO FLY, SO DON'T TELL THEM YOU CAN FLY THROUGH WEATHER -ETC. -ETC. |
Let me put this in perspective.
If we fly you tomorrow to Benidorm or Greece for a hundred and fifty quid, will you cheerfully cough up Five hundred quid in three months time when we discover that transporting you to your holiday destination ruined our engines? Didn't think so. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by paidworker http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/viewpost.gif Why is the G- CALM report being hidden and kept out of the public domain , one of the only ( to my knowledge ) official test flights with measuring equipment on board. Because it is written in scientific language which requires to be interpreted correctly. Releasing it to people who don't understand it nor the context it covers merely continues the uninformed speculation. Hopefully once our 'leaders' get their act together and schedule a programme of scientific testing we might begin to learn some more facts. Unfortunately I don't see any one single body having the accountability across Europe. BD Yeah I can see how " a "bum sucking moment at 5000 feet" would be above my head. Im sorry but I do not buy any of that , either something happened on that official test flight or it did not . The fact that the G-CALM report is being surpressed tells me I want to see it and should be able to make up my own mind. |
Sunfish, will you say the same in two weeks time, when we are still groundend because of a CAVOK ashcloud?
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Could you point me to the LAWS requiring you to impose zero flow rate when ash is present, or define what concentration of ash triggers that zero rate? Or more importantly define what concentration will permit you to increase that flow rate fom zero?
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can not expect them to have long term company benefit as their top priority. Ofcourse, earnings releases may change the expectations of investors, but it is still looking at LONG term effects not short term ones. Maybe a course in Finance 101 would be in order. Now the Politicians, on the other hand, that many here expound for their long-term vision in "snatching us all from the clutches of death", only see as far as the next election. Hence, unless votes may be picked up by publicly arguing for opening the airspace it will stay shut until after the elections. Now if public sentiment swings, politicians will be falling over eachother to open the airspace no matter what the risks are (albeit these will be cleverly shifted to airlines as we've seen in Austria) :D |
Bit of a change in the eruption this morning, whether it lasts or not.
Significantly reduced ash plume (although ash is falling in the immediate vicinty). However a helicopter flyby this morning reported the flow of lava, which may indicate a change for the better. Webcam: Eyjafjallajökull frá Hvolsvelli Well, off to work, apparently flying today :ok: |
Since one of the UK COBRA committee, a Mrs Harriett Harman, announced to a startled world that NATS is the regulator for aviation safety in the UK |
As someone said above...
" Clearly, it is vital to know the relative constituents of a plume and, more importantly, their concentrations over the area under consideration. If it is largely grit and silcon affecting the UK, which I suspect, then there should be no impediment to re-starting operations. Operations are routinely carried out in much worse conditions world-wide in, for example, the middle east when sand storms can reduce visibilty to 600 m. -a "contaminant" concentration hundreds of time worse than prevails over Europe today. If there are high levels of soot in the sample over the area in question then urgent research needs to be carried out by the engine manufacturers to agree a protocol with regulators and governments. " Someone who thinks we are dealing with "grit", "silicon" and/or "soot" doesn't inspire much confidence as an opinion former. |
Originally Posted by paidworker
(Post 5644722)
Im sorry but I do not buy any of that , either something happened on that official test flight or it did not . The fact that the G-CALM report is being surpressed tells me I want to see it and should be able to make up my own mind.
"a Met Office plane encountered dangerous levels of ash when it went through the ash cloud on Sunday. Dr Guy Gratton, head of the Facility of Airborne Atmospheric Measurement, a joint body belonging to the Met Office and the Natural Environment Research Council, said that "it's still quite a complex mixture of clear air and very worrying - but invisible -volcanic ash at all sorts of heights"." BD |
[ANECDOTE]
I took my retired pilot's torch into my retired pilot's garden last night in Sussex and was surprised that I could smell that familiar Keflavik water smell in Sussex. Shining my (RP's) torch up into the clear night sky I could see why. Loads of it. I was happy with my position. [END ANECDOTE] |
BA announcing no damage to their jolly in the 747. Thanks lads but.....
Good to see "INDEPENDENT" flight testing are taking place by BA. I say in jest. ITS A STUNT !!!! Having the BA CEO up there throwing his weight around,!! I kid you not, we are entering possibly a very worrying stage of this saga If restrictions are removed due to pressure from a commercial entity such as BA, KLM and the likes, as opposed to an unbiased party, this will be a sorry sorry chapter in aviation history. If due to this volcanic ash, an accident or incident were to take place, this would be one accident or incident too many. |
Highlow, the thing one has to wonder about is what the engines would say if the crew flies IFR instead of VFR?
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Originally Posted by Capot
(Post 5644672)
Since one of the UK COBRA committee, a Mrs Harriett Harman, announced to a startled world that NATS is the regulator for aviation safety in the UK and that we must all wait upon their advice,
BD |
Thanks BDiONU but i think everybody knows there is ash in the air , what I am more interested in is what the bum sucking moment you mentioned was.
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the middle east when sand storms can reduce visibilty to 600 m |
If we fly you tomorrow to Benidorm or Greece for a hundred and fifty quid, will you cheerfully cough up Five hundred quid in three months time when we discover that transporting you to your holiday destination ruined our engines? |
@anotherthing
"To claim that because this started on Thursday night and therefore a solution has been slow in coming because people have been away for the weekend is the most ridiculous and ignorant statement yet. There have been continual high level meetings about this since Thursday evening." Eh, no. Not the 'most' anyway. Is it ridiculous and ignorant that government shuts down at the weekend across europe? (And the rest of the world, to be fair). Yes. But since most decisions are made on the basis of the opinion writers in the sunday papers, it is hardly surprising. The EU finally kicked into action this morning, allowing financial aid to airlines. That's great if your country is not bust. The Irish government is putting its emergency response plan into action. Super. The problem, though, is european; the incompetentencies are national. |
Ash clouds.
What we need are some Drones to fly into the ash clouds. To find out the composition density position of the ash. I dornier with sensors is not enough.
A few flights by interested airines without proper sensors is all showmanship. Also we need some research into the effects of ash on engines, airframes,pitot systems etc. By doing this we can find out which levels are harmful to Aviation. At present the powers that be are taking the safest route. |
HighLow
The press are reporting -
"A team of engineers have carried out a detailed visual inspection and found no sign of damage to the aircraft or its engines." A DVI is not a quick front and back check; it is as it is named. |
IATA says closedown is "embarassment for Europe" reports BBC World News ticker.
Sky News ticker reports some NATO aircraft reporting problems with engines after flying in airspace here due ash. Also that eU may give exceptional financial aid to airlines. |
If they're worried about ingesting silica into the combustion chambers shouldn't we cancel all flights to the Middle East or anywhere that has sand?
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ETRANG, look at what you have just said.......
Maybe they will go bankrupt or not, You are naive to think that there won't be some assistance by Europe. So stop freaking out, and panic wont help.Don't even bother pointing out european rules restricting assistance to airlines from governments etc. This is not relevant in this situation..... Damaged Engines = Reduced Safety Margins no buts or exceptions. the fact you would suggest they should fly or else out of business shows to me how important you place safety within our industry. |
Littlebulbs, the engines did not stall. There is no visual stuff adhereing to its insides. All indications are normal. What more do you want? CAVOK weather?:}
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The press are reporting - "A team of engineers have carried out a detailed visual inspection and found no sign of damage to the aircraft or its engines." A DVI is not a quick front and back check; it is as it is named. |
Again, measuring the concentration is a nice idea, but it won´t tell us anything because there are no established limits of what is safe and what not. I guess it´s more a way to get out of the whole thing while saving face.
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Highlo, everytime you do an reduced thrust takeoff you reduce your safetymargins. When you takeoff on a wet runway you reduce the twice over. Nothing new! Then again, if you use TOGA your engine may blow up sooner.
If tests show we can deal with CAVOK ash, will you fly? |
HighLow, you have misunderstood. I'm not suggesting airlines should fly in dangerous conditions at all.
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Bruce absolutely, a boroscope inspection would be more detailed to a point.
But look who is doing the inspection, an entity (BA) who wants to get flying. Its like this, Imagine you killed someone and being a judge, you had to convict yourself, would you? BA wants to fly, of course we all want to fly, but from I can understand of the situation, there are no IMPARTIAL inspections taking place. The only people keeping it together, are Eurocontrol and the likes. I just hope they don't back down for the wrong reasons. What we need are wind changes etc and that volcano to stop belching out this material into the air. PENKO: your comment about reduced take off etc. Big Difference, there isn't bits of glass melting in the combustion chamber and choking the engine. CAVOK? can you see ash travelling at 800 km/h. |
But if the airlines don't start flying again they will all be bankrupt in three months time. If airlines chose to wreck their only assets in order to keep running for three months there won't be any chance European governments could save them. |
Clandestino It's the choice of going bankrupt now, with equipment ready to go when ash disperses, financing becomes available and new airlines arise from the ashes of old, or going bankrupt a few months later with equipment that no money will help get airborne. Who cares about new airlines if old didn't came though? If there will be a massive bunkruptcies now, you can forget about getting a penny for new airlines, especially when the root cause of failure (volcano and stupid authorities) are still in place. Long term profits are important. But they are nothing without positive cashflow. Probably you don't know, but 4 out of 5 airlines are failing because of cash shortage, not because of lack of profit. |
Here we are once again referring to my earlier post located here.
The home office has decided to take similar action to my earlier suggestion - albeit HMS Navy ships in place of rail and motor coaches: As forecasters warned the cloud from the Iceland volcano could prevent flights over Britain all week, government ministers denied they had been slow to act as calls intensified for the no fly ban to be lifted. After a meeting of Cobra, the Government's emergency planning committee in Whitehall, the Prime Minister announced that HMS Ark Royal and HMS Ocean were being made available to help thousands of Britons stranded, most notably in France. The Spanish government on Monday said its airports would be used to get 70,000 stranded Britons home around the ash cloud that has paralysed European air traffic. In an attempt to address criticism that the Government has been slow to respond to the crisis, the Prime Minister also said the British government was examining the financial impact on airlines and associated companies of the closure of UK airspace. The chaos caused by the eruption of an Icelandic volcano, now entering its fifth day, has left more than one million British travellers stranded abroad. The unprecedented disruption to airline passengers has already cost the economy £500 million and is costing airlines worldwide £130 million a day. |
Peter We:
We have data; government aircraft from several nations, including the UK have tested the air quality and stated that its is not good enough for aircraft to fly. You choose to ignore that, as well as ignoring the advice of engineers, engine manufactures and the experience of the many aircraft that have flow through similar concentrations of ash plumes. |
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