Sadly, CC are many times their own worst enemy with actions as Rainboe has described.
I personally have no tolerance for such nonsence.
If CC have proven reliable in some circumstances, they will be listenened to....otherwise totally and completely ignored.

Cracking logic! :ugh: Can we please stop this nonsense? Its making this thread a laughing stock.

The trouble with making statements such as we always take off with a particular config is that another operator may have completely different ways of operating the same aircraft.
Hetfield mentions that the majority of his take-offs in an A300 are slat only yet in my airline with the same aircraft we usually use flap 15 or sometimes 20.Both airlines have decided to use whichever is the best config for their route structure and flex policy.
Unless you have that airlines takeoff performance charts in front of you how can you ever tell what is the correct config on the day or whether the correct config is set?
If I am going to do a slat only take-off I will brief the cabin crew as the ground roll is usually much longer than normal.We only do these in BAH on hot days/nights.

yes Ferrobus, you're right, it was not a 767 but 757.
and to another poster: the 'technique' drives me crazy too!

The best answer is this:

PA from pilot: Ladies and gentlemen, our flaps are set for takeoff, the checklist is complete and we ask you to fasten your seat belts and relax. Flight Attendants, prepare for takeoff.

Seems to me that there are a couple of suggestions to improve safety

1/ Have no obstructions/gullys on airports

2/ Get cabin crew to check flaps & slats

Now this is a forum and has no regulatory powers or influence, so perhaps the proponents of these ideas would be better spending their time writing to the international regulatory bodies and making their case to them I'm sure the relevent addresses are obtainable from the internet.

So does the F70/100

Rainboe,

Picture one of your children undergoing complicated surgery by an
expert surgeon.
During the operation a nurse sees what she believes is a
fatal mistake about to be made by the surgeon.
In your opinion, what should she do?

XPM

CC Awareness
 

I seem to remember reading in this thread somewhere that a survivor sitting near/next to, a dead-heading F/O / Captain saying something like "something weird here" during takeoff run.

Makes you think.

Instruments can lie - if the flight deck instruments are telling you one thing and the cabin crew another, it's always worth confirming which is correct. How many times has a CB popped out for no apparent reason, or an alarm turned out to be a faulty sensor?

If in doubt ask ,how many mistakes have been made when people have assumed something,or been afraid to ask/mention something.

XPMorten 1612
 

In this case the Nurse is not CA, she is Operating Crew

You don´t want to know how many people die without valid reason while on the operating table, how many people get operated on the wrong part of their body or based on a wrong diagnose.
CRM in the operating room is still in a developing stage.

While I think the professional aviation community is already working on it since 1977....

They (doctors/nurses etc..) in the operating room and anywhere else in the hospital can learn (at least something..) from us...

Sorry, but thats the truth...

Back in the 80s while boarding a Dan-Air 727 (all service vehicles now departed) front section, noticed and open access panel. Um I thought, maybe the F/O missed this on his walk around (before the service people departed?) so I brought this to the attention of cc. Two minutes later F/O leaves the f/d, down steps and has a looksie.

Now, this might have not had any detrimental effect on the safety of the a/c prior to take off, but it must have raised concern on the f/d as to the open access flap/hatch, forward/underside of the port wing. Might be a good idea that the walk around check would be more beneficial when service vehicles and support peoples have departed the vicinity of the a/c. Just a though.

Daz

A couple of years ago I was travelling from EDI to CDG on an Air France 146. 25 minutes or so into the flight I drew the cabin crews attention to a stonking oil leak from the port inner. Casual was her walk forwards, instantenous was the sound of the engine shutting down! We diverted to Stanstead!

So, be careful not to generalise. Some of us back there do keep a sensible lookout and to doubt could be somones undoing!

GS

Thanks PJ2

My point is that while it seems that having cabin crew check flap/slats is a good idea to this SLF, one thing I have learnt from pprune is that an improvemnt in one area may cause greater problems in another area. As the goal is to reduce the overall risk, not specific risk of one situation, any change in procedure must be subject to an overall risk evaluation. If it costs little to nothing and does not increase the risk of another problem, then it is hard to argue agaist.

Rainboe's example of the smell smoke is a good example of the cry wolf situation and associated costs, and must be considered in this evaluation. PJ2 makes the point of routine, yet IF this accident is due to flaps/slats, then perhaps part of the problem is that the flight crew's routine was altered. In such cases there is always the chance that the cc's routine would have caught it. In this situation, perhpas having cc do visual checks may be a good idea (assuming again it does not increase other risks).

Again, I am not suggesting either course of action, just trying to understand by frameworking for the discussion.

We have that covered. We carry two ground engineers everywhere, and they do precisely as you have described...a late stage external inspection before the final door is closed.
They also personally close all cargo doors.
We leave nothing to chance in the ad-hoc charter business.
Nothing

We have all experienced personnel at our company, no 'instant experts' allowed.

"You don´t want to know how many people die without valid reason while on the operating table, "

Very few, based on 35 years of experience in many different surgical disciplines and operating theaters.

"....how many people get operated on the wrong part of their body...."

In tens of thousands of procedures witnessed and preformed professionally I can recall two

"....or based on a wrong diagnose."

Yes it happens, but not very often. Can't always get the diagnosis right. I'm good, but I'm not God.

"CRM in the operating room is still in a developing stage."

That at least is true - but we have pretty good CRM in my theaters.

If you're going to be alarmist at least base it on facts.

Mac :ok:

I don't think asking CC to check flaps/slats is practical, each person chosen would have to be trained, especially if variable settings are used at different airports. This would complicate crew rostering and those with the responsibility would probably want more pay.
Better to ensure that pre-takeoff checks by the aircrew are more prominent before rolling. Human error cannot be entirely eliminated.

Mac;

Thanks for your comments, esp. on CRM in the OR.

Atul Gawande has written two books entitled, "Complications", and "Better" in which he discusses the use of aviation-based CRM techniques to help in avoiding human error. I've spoken with enough medical people to know that the communications and SOP techniques employed in aviation to make it safer still have a long way to go but the path is at least set and that is very positive.

Do you have any thoughts on this approach as to utility, realistic/practical implementation, resistance and training regimes? For us, "CRM" began around 1991 or so - quite late really, and has progressed through about 3 stages. "SMS", safety management systems, means collecting data rather than relying solely upon standard procedures and regulatory obedience - in other words, the approach to safety is reality-based rather than ideologically-based though there remains at some organizations and within some individuals, stiff resistance to such situational awareness.

Thanks,
PJ2

Unfortunately most humans don't "fly inside the envelope"
like airliners - which probably complicates diagnosis alot.
Installing a FDR and voicerecorder at birth might be an idea..

M