The Guvnor is a certain Mr Neil Robertson and I am researching court records to show some of his lesser qualities over and above the fact that the man is an absolute nothing. He certainly could not handle the job of a CSD let alone flight deck. I have no personal axe to grind other than total irritation at his presence on Prune. Think of the worst itch you have ever experienced and you don't even come close to this guy. I speak of someone who has met the moron and believe me creepy is as creepy does!!!!!




:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I hope he's never on one of my flights, or an offload may just be in order..........

How could CC ever be a profession when the job doesn't require ANY intelligence. DOH....(as for the responsibility of hundreds of lives - I can't say that I've ever heard of the CC give a NITS brief to the flight deck - wake up matey boy !!!!)

Oh well, the world's full of Walter Mitty types.

Guvnor,

If anyone can come up with an industry where the line personnel have to take the risks that we do, whilst the management stay cocooned in their offices, I'd be interested to hear that!

Well when I saw this thread, I knew that idiot Guv would be in on it. Now do you believe that this person is mentally ill? He must be shut up- he is kicking of other idiots like Deskpilot and just teasing you all- very childish. Just totally ignore him......IGNORE HIM! I will keep on this blasted nuisance's tail though! If you want to see what a disappointing character this man is, go to the website showing what a villain he is!

Guvnor,

You ask "what other profession has line personnel being paid more than managers" - try the NHS (rather a large organisation). Surgeons and many of the senior doctors are paid substantially more than the hospital managers because they actually carry out the front-line work, rather than oversee it.

The reason that there is such a large turnover of cabin crew is that the job requires practically no qualifications and very little training. For you to say that cabin crew have an important job because they "sell and collect the revenue from duty free sales" is, frankly, laughable. You're obviously not aware that they receive a percentage of the take and so engage in this particular onerous task rather enthusiastically (often at the cost of a good service within the cabin).

I have no axe to grind with the engineers, the vast majority I have met are hard working, professional and good at their job. there is, however, a job hierarchy within every profession and most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them. No malice, just reality.

If there are any other unanswered questions that you need answers to then please feel free to post - many of us are more than able to give informed opinions due to our qualifications, both from present and previous professions.

Name-calling and insults are rarely called for as it is the domain of the ignorant, but in your case, you really are a total prat.

It’s not very often I come across a thread on PPRuNe I wish I hadn’t read, but this is one of those times. :(


Quotes:

For one, they (FO's) are trained PROFESSIONALS (unlike cabin crew - it doesn't take a great deal of nouce to open a door and direct people down a slide) and for another they are 2IC in every ops manual I've ever worked to. (after the skipper).
******
How could CC ever be a profession when the job doesn't require ANY intelligence. DOH
******
"Indeed, a CSD/Purser should be earning slightly more than an FO due to their greater levels of responsibility"
Ahh, come on Guv!
Look at the training involved to get to there.

No quarrel with the fact that an FO makes more than I do; "supply and demand" takes care of that in a simple way.
With our mob the Captain is always good naturedly referred to as “The Boss”. It's a good & realistic gauge of the respect he or she is held in by cabin and cockpit crew alike.

But regarding some of the comments made on this thread, let me say this:

To become a Purser in our outfit, we have to be fluent in 4 languages besides our mother tongue. It took me almost 2 years of study for each of those exams. And that’s for a person blessed with a reasonable flair for languages.
I know of many colleagues who spent a lot more time and money than I did, to get where they are now.
All this in one’s own time, and with a financial recompense from the company which doesn’t even begin to cover the cost of the years of private tuition we have to take since no regular class will fit in with a “normal” flight schedule.

Once we have the languages, we can apply for the next step up the ladder.
To prepare for that interview generally takes anything between 2 and 6 months of studying management theory, aggression-psychology, motivational tools etc etc.
The process involves 2 days of rigorous psychological screening, and has a 50% prune-rate.
Then 6 months of training follows.

There are 2 more steps to become a Wide Body Purser, and at each stage, there is a fall-out rate of again about 50%.
All fair enough, no complaints from me, you want to get somewhere, you’ll have to invest in yourself.


Which brings me to the total crap that some of you have been spouting on this thread about the job that I do. All it does is highlight your very limited understanding of what the job of CSD/Purser entails.
And it shows that even among the best & the brightest, some total f*ckwits exist. :D

I consider myself fortunate in many different ways; not least because the vast majority of the pilots I work with are men and women of intelligence, integrity, professionalism and a sincere no bull-sh!t desire to jointly provide our pax with the best possible service!


I am not a pilot, and never do I aspire to “rise above my station”.

But by God I am due some respect for what I am, for the job I do, and for what it took me to get here!

Well said Flaps, agree with your comments 150% - additionally, as a (retired) pilot I can confirm that most pilots only speak English and Rubbish, unfortunately, on PPRuNe, it would seem that many of us only use our second language.

Just about sums up this country!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but the only time you come above us is when your airborne. :D ;) :D ;) :D

Well said FlapsForty - you've provided a perfect example of the point that I was trying to make about the high degree of experience, skill and above all professionalism required by CSDs/Pursers.

I think that this thread illustrates that the flight deck knows all too little about the skills of the people at the front end of customer service - the people who are, incidentally, the 'public face' of the airline.

It also shows that there's little understanding of the other people involved with airlines - from operations, crewing, scheduling, passenger service agents, dispatchers, engineers, administrators, sales and call centre staff etc etc. As I've said many times before, an airline is a team effort and at the moment it appears to the other players - including management - that senior pilots have closeted themselves away in their ivory towers and have no interest in sacrificing their swimming pools, expensive cars, yachts, private aircraft, private schools for their kids etc.

There's a saying about walking around in other people's shoes. Perhaps some of you guys should try it sometime!

Alfredo_Garcia - you'll find that the senior doctors are in fact managers as well (at least here in the UK - can't speak for anywhere else) - I suspect you're you're thinking of hospital line administrators which are a somewhat different category of people (think of them as CSDs compared with the Consultant as Captain...)

F40, that's exactly what we as flight deck are generally trying to say - GIVE US SOME RESPECT !!! This is directed at jealous fools who think we get paid too much for being pilots...
I have no axe to grind with CSD'S/Pursers, in fact there are many times that I've gone well out of my way to help them out in the past- that said, CSD's and pursers are there to throw the pax out of the aircraft when things go wrong... And for no other reason. The drinks service is only really an aside.

Firemen,police etc get less than some CSD's - typical of this cocked up country that we live in I think. :mad: :mad: :mad:

By the way Guvvy boy, I've worked in ops, done a stint with engineering, so I have seen aviation from a few angles.... Needless to say, the SHARP end is where it really all happens. I speak from experience .

White Knight - good attempt at a recovery there, but nil points for going straight in and saying it's flight deck that wants respect! You have to earn that, laddie, and at the moment there are an awful lot of pilots out there who appear to think that they are the be-all and end-all of the airline business and couldn't give two hoots about their team-mates elsewhere; especially when it comes to pay!

The reality, as I have said many times before, is very simple. Pilots are simply aerial bus or truck drivers. Sure, they have to go through a lot more training to get there - but nowhere near as much as in some professions. In addition, although I think you'd all claim to be professionals, your working practices are distinctly blue collar.

Hence my prediction that this current situation will be used for a drastic reformation of payscales and working practices. No one so far has come up with any justification why pilots' - especially captains' - salaries should be considerably more than those of the majority of managers; and nor has anyone come up with any reason as to why there is such disparity between flight deck and senior cabin crew or licenced engineers.

The standard response, of course, is generally: "well, if we don't work the aircraft don't fly". Very true. However, you're forgetting that if the engineers don't sign off the aircraft you're not going anywhere either; and if the cabin crew (at least in the case of a pax airline) don't work then you're also going to be sitting there twiddling your thumbs.

Costs need to be cut - and those paid the most (including management) are the obvious targets.

Another area I'm convinced will have to change will be the seniority system which acts as handcuffs to the free movement of personnel and as such is bad for both crews and the company. At the end of the day, what does it actually mean anyway? If it was replaced with a promotion-on-merit and direct entry system, then the real effect is only going to be on seniority based bidding which could be replaced by randomised or rotational bids. Otherwise, you get paid for the job you're employed to do: FO, training FO, Captain, training captain, fleet manager; whatever.

Guv with you for a champion, who needs enemies? :rolleyes:

But please make sure you that don't even infer that I agree with sweeping statements like:
That is a load of BS, and only shows off your own prejudices. In exactly the same way that white knight and others only put themselves to shame with their nonsensensical opinions on cabin crew.

But let me not waste any more time on this. Most cabin crew and pilots, at least where I work and that is after all the only environment I can discuss with any authority, get on famously with eachother.

There is a basic understanding of eachother's jobs, a forgiving eye for eachother's weaknesses and a good amount of mutual respect.

Salaries are negotiated for by the various unions, and good luck to anyone who can get a good chunk of the pie. :D

GUV,

IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
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IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT
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IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT

A.Garcia.....

I wasnt going to rise to the bait but.......

Till you know something about Engineers.....shut the F**k up.

Love

LP

A Garcia.

It takes weeks to train cabin crew,
months to train flight crew,
and YEARS to train licensed engineers!!

Need I say more.

Mind you, some bright spark amongst you will just deduce from this that the cabin crew are more intelligent and therefore can learn quicker.

Oh dear have I overstepped the mark here? I'm so sorry Sirs I will climb back under my toolbox never to express an opinion again.

Engineer- know your place!!!!!!!

"But let me not waste any more time on this. Most cabin crew and pilots, at least where I work and that is after all the only environment I can discuss with any authority, get on famously with eachother.

There is a basic understanding of eachother's jobs, a forgiving eye for eachother's weaknesses and a good amount of mutual respect."


flapsforty, it is always a pleasure to read your intelligent reasoned posts. The above would describe the situation anywhere I have worked.
I think you can accept that the requirments for the position of purser vary considerably between airlines. Also I think it is possible that some people are thinking of the senior CC member on board when posting on this subject and again the training and experience required is a huge variable dependant on the type of aircraft one is flying on. This would explain some of the posts that "hit the nerve".
I have no comment for the windup merchant.

But what has all this got to do with BA management taking a 15% pay cut. FYI it will take me 2 years to earn what Red Oddington has taken in a pay cut. Surely he (they) can afford to take more, after all they could retain 2 engineers or maybe 1 Captain with the cut he is taking alone! :mad:

Once again like most threads on PPrune we end up with the Guv adding his pennies worth.
The argument about pilots value is distilled by 2 facts.

Read the UK Air Nav. Order and see where the responsibility ends, then decide who are your key staff. On that basis pilots are underpaid.

As an American pilot once said "show me you pay cheque I'll show you your status"

GUV hits on a very curious point with his pilot/ bus driver analogy, and CSD/ FO pay and experience comparisons.
When it comes to day to day productivity, or maybe job difficulty and complexity, there's probably not much difference between a manager and pilot or air trafficer on an average day at work. therein it ends.
There are generally a multitude of skills involved in managing a jet or ATC sector that most of us posses to a greater or lesser degree but few of the general population have in exactly the right proportion, after all - it's the recognition of ones skills and abilities that drive an individual towards a particular career chioce in the first place.
Secondly, whereis it's reasonably simple to measure the performance of a day to day line manager, it's fiendishly difficult to directly measure that of say a pilot or air traffic controller perhaps. Thankfully it happens infrequently, but all our training and skills are called upon to save a few hundred arses - no second take, power breakfast with team briefing and glossy projections with coffee break involved. I just don't know how you can financially quantify such a unique field, the market has had something to do with it sure, but Guv is like so many bean counter I've heard spout on about pay and pruductivity - they know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: buzid ]

Alfredo Garcia- I believe the saying goes:

"Even a pilot can ground an aeroplane, but only an engineer can fix it"

So ram it.........pal. :mad:

I get sick of reading comments by the guvnor etc .They belong to the dogs for their pathetic comments when pilots are facing a tough time. :mad:

Guvnor - you are a LOONEY and YOU know IT.
With so many people saying so, you're in the minority and that's a fact.
I would have thought that at least changing your username and returning as someone else would be a good start. It seems though that you may after all be a real head case and nothing will make you see sense, or when time is/should be up.

Moist

I have a feeling he already has.

Fellow Aviators,

Stop wasting your energy. This "GUV" is
nothing but a frustrated,pilot hating,
("I wish I made as much as they do"), lonely
airline CEO wannabe!

Fly safe! :D

This is a hotbed of issues,viewpoints,and a barrel-load of vitriol aimed at you-know-who ,not surprisingly!

The point is the topic that was started originally, and this is what should be debated here.

Like tempermental 4 year olds, some people are best left alone until they come to their senses (i fear a very long wait....zzz....)
Ignore the guvs comments, he obviously puts them their to get people to rise to the bait.

Whether BA or not, I am sure that pilots,engineers and cabin crew alike are in the majority of cases skillful and deserving, and it really shouldn't come to a question of who deserves most praise / salary.

It's not really a question of who does the best/better job ,more a question of why you are already there - because you have chosen to follow that line - - Most pilots/engineers would probably not want to be cabin crew , but I'm certain that most cabin crew would not want to be pilots/engineers !!

If people really are unhappy with their terms and conditions they will leave eventually anyaway.

I have a very strong feeling that Rod E and these other managers have taken a paycut at this early stage of this current crisis, in anticipation of later asking other employees of BA to do the same. I really would not be at all surprised.
When placed with the emotive question of will you take a cut - or - see the company sink into a disastrous financial situation,
You'd really have to ask yourself whether a lower salary or no salary at all is preferable.

I like anyone else, would not want to see this happen to anybody at any airline(I was with Air Europe until that fateful day in 91, and in retrospect would much rather have lost part of my income than the life and times I had there.)

As long as the BA accounting is honest, and inefficiencies are rooted out big time, things should fall back onto an even keel,
world events allowing,and passenger confidence being restored.

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Anti-ice ]

I had a conversation with a pilot who had taken a pay cut in the early nineties to help out the airline he was with.

He said he didn't like having to take the pay cut (who would?) but that he wasn't stupid..."85%of my original pay is better than 0%"

Enough said. It isn't pretty, but it's better than unemployment.

15% of staff pay is a drop in the ocean of BA turnover. The way to handle difficulty is not to attack staff benefits. Sack what you need to, keep the rest well motivated. BA is pouring money away in wasteful areas- wonderful shiny HQs, unnecessary buildings all over the place, thousands of useless, non productive staff. Until they attack the key waste areas, BA will lurch from crisis to crisis.

Would ROD have given himself and his "back door boys" a 15% pay cut IF HE WAS earning 140 K per annum I DO NOT THINK SO!His pay cut is more than the average flight crew pay per annum.

In my humble opinion the cabin crew, the flight crew and the engineers all do a spectacular job ():-)
However, if you want a sobering comparison:
Cost of training pilot = £50K/£60K
Cost of training ATCO = £330K

Our work load doesn't go down, it goes up (dramatically every year)! So when you are all either flying, or looking after people down the back, spare a thought for the air traffic controllers who are prematurely going grey and are giving their all to make sure you get from A to B safely ():-)
If you want to see underpaid then go to LATCC, TC or LHR

Why is it that BA Concorde pilots (as an example) fly a LHR-JFK sector (3.5 hours) and then have an overnight stay in NY?

Some charter pilots are given an GLA-Tenerife + delays + return trip which can end up being a 12-13 hour day.

And why do SST captains get paid more?

Until BA looks at every aspect of its operation - operations, management, sales, marketing, engineering and starts tearing down the mini-empires, back slapping and inefficiency they will never return to the days of being the 'world's most profitable airline'.

BahrainLad

When you understand fully the Concorde operation, then feel free to comment. Until then keep your opinions to yourself.

T2

Seemed a respectable question to me how about enlightening us with a respectable answer

T2sugarsplease,

Can you please help us to understand the Concorde operation, rather than give a rather vague and cryptic reply to what was a valid question?

Bahrainlad

Get your head out of the camel's toush and inform yourself on the Concorde operation. Then you'll know you don't do a turn around in JFK.

Guv

I've been meaning to ask you for a while: What do you actually do for living ?
Your post on another thread about how drastically pilots pay was going to be reduced, although a bit chilling, was most amusing. Wishfull thinking my pet !
The best bit though was SAS taking over other airlines. This one really made my wooden horse roll on its back. Quite a sight !
As to abolishing seniority ? Guv, wake up. The airlines have a lot more to gain with seniority, not the pilots. Were they not losing so much by leaving, pilots would be moving around like crazy.
You are obviously not that familiar with safety, so let me enlighten you a tat. It's by leaning on stable pilot's force that you ensure compagny safety culture will be safeguarded. Do you think Emirates would have made it despite all its limitless cash ? It's attracted well trained and motivated professionals and given them salaries, carreer prospects and working conditions to make them want to stay.
I think I've got Prince Maktoum fax number somewhere. He could teach you a thing or 2, like how to get an airline started for one thing.

By the way, 15 % pay cut ? Sure 85 % is better than zilch, but you want to have a little reminder in the contract that it comes back to ante once the crisis is over. Lufthansa pilots had that in their 1992 contract and it took them quite a lot of energy to get it back.


Guv

I was tossing between litlle dwarfs with a windmill and a mouldy 1011 for my garden. What do you think ? Would be great for the kids.

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: wallabie ]

"At the end of the day, the Captain is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and all on board, so no argument he has the most responsibility and should therefore be paid the most. But should he be paid any more than someone making decisions that affect the company's financial/commercial future? I can't see that. There are plenty of jobs that carry at least as much risk and involve as much training - for far less pay.

Let me put it this way - can anyone come up with an overwhelming argument against these comments - preferrably with facts to back up their position?

--------------------

Guv

Mr Brugisser in his wisdom, ran a once glamourous airline right into the ground.
He was discreetly wisked away in the finest Swiss corporate maner with enough cash to shut him up until the " big crunch " hits the universe. Swissair Captains during that time and until it stopped never flinched. It was always their name, nor Brugisser's, that was on the flight plan taking full responsability and eventually the heat when things got hairy, while Mr Brugisser was sipping his 3rd daïquiri at the Zürich Mövenpick.
I take it this is your idea of corporate sense of responsability ? Then keep those 1011 on the ground. Can they fly by the way ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can a Captain expect a bundle of cash if he crashes his aircraft and ruins the life of a few hundred ?
We are held accountable every time we get on board and should we stuff up no one is going to offer us another well paid job " with the boys ". That my dear commands respect; a word that has no meaning for you.

GUV..How many postings???

Did you know that if every posting takes you five mins to create, and many of your take much more, you have spent 10.5555 days of your sad life posting on this site..

I think you need help...

So the B.A. management lead the way with a 15% cut.

Next they attack the workforce with pay cuts.

Of course managers are on 'performance related pay', so they now appear to have performed very well from a beancounters perspective. Their 15% comes back in spades!

Ever been had?!


Regards
Exeng

Wallabie - I'll have a go.

There are many jobs within the airline industry which carry as much financial risk as the Captain does, but with less pay and training. However there are very few jobs that carry as much responsibility for human life as that of the Captain, and of those that do, only the flight crew will live or die as a result of their actions. Anybody who is not on board the aircraft can choose to walk away from a problem, or take time to think about it. It may be detrimental to their career, but the option is there. Those on board the aircraft do not have the first option, and the latter is often in very short supply. In those short moments they will preserve the airlines priceless reputation for safety, or they may cause financial disaster far greater than any single decision taken in an office. Therefore, the Captain deserves to be paid more.

Bahrain lad-

If BA could robustly crew day trips on Concorde they'd have done it a long time ago.

Charter guys do indeed fly 13 hour days, as do many long haul pilots. But which aircraft do you think is most demanding to fly - a glass cockpit 757 doing M0.78, or a clockwork, 3 crew, 4 engine supersonic M2.0 sixties jet?

Finally, due to the seniority of the fleet, I think you'll find that most crew on the SST take a very hefty pay cut to fly it. Most do it for love (yes there are people in BA who enjoy flying), and a few do it for prestige.

Way to go hand solo !!