Any Objections?
 

OFFICIAL RECORD SERIES 2 No: 1522
PART 5 FOREIGN REGISTERED AIRCRAFT Date: 8 JANUARY 2002
A - Leases of foreign registered aircraft by UK operators
REQUESTS BY UK OPERATING LICENCE AND AIR TRANSPORT LICENCE HOLDERS TO LEASE
FOREIGN REGISTERED AIRCRAFT
Excel Airways Limited applied on 2 January 2002 to wet lease four Icelandic registered B767-200 aircraft
(registrations TF -ATO, TF-ATP, TF-ATR and one to be advised) from 1 May 2002 to 31 October 2002.
The reason for the application is to supplement the Excel Airways fleet during the summer season.
The applicant currently operates no foreign registered aircraft, but during the last twelve months was authorised
to operate three of the aircraft referred to above for seven months.
Any comments or objections to this application should be sent in writing, within 10 working days, to P W Stanton,
International Aviation Policy, K4 Gate 8, Civil Aviation Authority, CAA House, 45-59 Kingsway, London WC2B
6TE.

Guess the airlines will not object as they have no surplus equipment available anymore after all the crews etc. have been kicked out....

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Has either BALPA or the IPA raised an objection to this? It would be tragic if not, and yet I suspect this was the case.

This from July last year - deja vu?


&lt;The IPA are again taking a stand on flagging out, this time over Excel's application to run 3 Icelandic 767s.
In addition, they are asking members to write (politely!) to
Mr P W Stanton
Economic Regulation Group
CAA K4 G8
45-49 Kingsway
London WC2B 6TE

He is the head of the department, which, according to the IPA, has accepted almost EVERY application for wet lease. To quote the IPA - "His view is that allowing airlines to use their commercial judgement on whether to lease foreign (non-EU) capacity is in the best interests of all employed in the aviation industry".

The IPA feel all of us may not agree, and may wish to express their feelings to this man.

The IPA also refer to the application by BA for an extension to the second 'ATLAS look-a-like' (AKA GSS) 747-400 arrangement, made, apparently, on the basis that time is required to 'bring the aircraft onto the UK register'.&gt;


Haven't heard yet from BALPA.

Unless and until UK airlines are prepared to have excess aircraft AND crews available for the summer season (and kept idle and not paid in winter), the practise will continue.
How many crews will agree to "part time employment" that the summer season offers? <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Excel
You will find that this is just the tip of the iceberg. They will lease in a lot of other capacity which hasnt got Excel painted onthe side just as they did last year.In addition they are employing pilots on temporary summer contracts this year I understand. If so this arrangment allows them to do it.BALPA and the IPA have objected

Copy the letter to your MP; it's easy using this site - <a href="http://www.faxyourmp.com/" target="_blank">http://www.faxyourmp.com/</a>

I think its true to say that Excel operate 6 737NG
of their own. Given the statements on this thread it indicates that about 70% of their capacity will be flagged out with the CAA's approval. Given the current state of the UK pilot emplyment situation how can this be acceptable? No doubt it is highly acceptable to their owners Cypriots I am led to believe

The temporary contracts offered to the UK Pilots were very poor indeed financially and as a result most of the guys lined up who had originally accepted jobs have recently rejected them and gone elsewhwere to better paid and more importantly-permanent jobs ( I persoanlly know of 4 Guys-with 3 more who are just waiting on results from recent interviews!!)...things are improving on the job front and Excel will soon realise they cant pay peanuts to guys because of the market conditions, they will end up with the wrong guys in there shiny new Jets... shame really, they look like a smart outfit from the outside. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

The IPA objected to their application for three 767's last year, and hopefully will also do so with this -but without the support of pilots there is no guarantee of success. The simple fact is that Mr Stanton at the CAA DOES NOT CARE if every one of us loses our job.

UK pilots, if you are bothered about having a job you MUST write to your MP and to the address in the CAA to object to this.

(House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA)

Hear hear!

I will write immediately after posting this. The rest of you Brit pilots get yer fingers out too!

Putting aside whether or not one likes the idea, I understand that due to the relationship between the EU and Iceland, it is legal (within the EU anyway). Before the abuse starts about unemployed pilots etc (for whom I have the greatest sympathy), I'm just stating the facts as I believe them to be.

Hey, people. I'm as supportive of unemployed UK pilots as anyone else, but it seems to have escaped everyone's attention that almost all the pilots on Excel's 767s last summer were EU nationals. They were as entitled to be there as UK pilots are entitled to fly elsewhere in the EU (licencing problems are a different issue). That operation also provided livlihoods for a lot of British cabin crew, never mind all the supporting services. Air Atlanta advertised for UK/EU 767 pilots to fly those aircraft, so what stopped you from applying?

Have to agree, worked for Excel last summer, therefore for Air Atlanta on their 767. Both great bunch of people <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . .And as NR said...all Europeans (like myself) :) therefore with legal right to live and work in UK. .Happy landings <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

Hello ShotOne,

Does your company not employ Canadian aircraft and crews for the summer period also?

Regards

faq

xenia/nearly ret, all very well -except that Iceland IS NOT IN THE EU!

While it is a member of the EEA, that does not mean any flight crew involved have to be. Once a wet lease deal like this is rubber-stamped the crew can come in from anywhere in the world -regardless of how many UK residents are on the dole.

This situation is also allowing Excel to employ temporary contract pilots for the summer and grant summer only commands. You people at JMC, I think the whole charter industry is looking with great interest at the Excel business model.Excel are already doing what is threatened at Virgin and JMC. They are also flagging out a vast amount of their capacity. A friend of mine who works there tells me the directors point blank refuse to recognise BALPA!!!! I wonder why??. .If Excel continue to get away with all this the rest of the charter industry will follow suit,the bean counters love it.

Shotone. .You are so right iceland is not in the EU. Another point that our friend Santon at the CAA might like to consider is that non of these pilots at Air Atlanta,South Atlantic Airways and any other company Excel chooses to use are not paying UK tax whilst Brit pilots are on the dole

The EU and the EEA form a single aviation market. Air Atlanta has the right to operate services on all intra EU/EEA routes. Air Atlanta could be chartered to operate (most/all?)the services they would have been used for under the wet-lease. Preventing the wet-lease would have no guarentee of ensuring that the services were operated by a UK airline but could affect the UK airline wishing to wet lease. This is something else that the CAA need to consider.

If we carry on like this the biggest company in the UK charter market will be Air Atlanta.What that will do for Brit pilot employment God only Knows. Wake up everybody

Loads of problems Monkee but I don't see you coming up with any solutions. Whats your business plan? Excel own and operate their own 767s and then go under because they can't carry them through the winter! Then your "friend" with whom I suspect you have a closer association than you're letting on, would then be unemployed like the rest. Still look on the bright side, with your "friend's" experience I'm sure he could get work.......maybe with Air Atlanta flying the Hadj. The problem with charter is that the winters are a commercial hell. Airlines that find inovative ways to cope will prosper, but those that don't will surely suffer, especially as the low cost carriers are now competing for the same customers on the bread and butter tourist routes. Facts of life.

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: flybigjets ]</p>

Monkee...................................................... .............I can smell you!!!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Flybigjets. .Funny how Air Atlanta can get winter work for their fleet but Excel cannot. The cr*p that you come out with is going to put a lot of UK pilots jobs,promotions,and future security on the line.

If you can smell me phone me

monkee... you dipstick !. .Air Atlanta dont find it easy in the winter to get there birds flying, as cyberbird stated he is sitting around waiting for a phone call. The hajj is only approx 2 months worth of flying (28 days each side of the hajj break ), this hardly constitutes a busy winter programme.. .If its that easy on the hajj funny how you only see the odd UK charter jet in JED.. .I think excel must be doing something right as there are no redundencies or paycuts going on there...... can you say that about your airline ? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Golden Lion ]</p>

The dimbulbs in the UK will take it in the backside again this year as AAI will attempt to clean their collective plate....and they may well succeed. Those who have worked for carriers such as AAI have a job that is really not bad at all...take the winter off and lay in the sun. Let the rest freeze.. .WHY has the UK not produced a company like AAI? Could it be that the UK collective mind is stuck in a rut....as always. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

411A. The UK has just got an airline like Air Atlanta. Its called EAAC and seems to be doing a copycat. Will be interesting to see what happens this summer.. .Incidently, seeing the number of AAI 747s sitting at Manston over the autumn and Christmas, I don't think that AAI were finding the winter that easy.

The comment has been made that most of the Excel 767 pilots last year were UK/EU nationals. This is certainly true. However what has been ignored is that ALL the UK nationals did not qualify on the 300 (approx) days a year out of the UK required (based on location at midnight) to obtain tax exemption on their paid offshore US$ earnings. Thus they all owe tax for last year and will if they return this year - but how many will pay it?. .BALPA and the IPA should follow this up.

Golden Lion. .Obviously you are to thick to realise that 11/9 happened this year despite which AAI still survive. I am reliably informed that some very unpleasant things have happened to Excel flight deck. Go crawl back into your management hole

Monkee - "I am reliably informed that some very unpleasant things have happened to Excel flight deck."

Like what precisely?

Yo 411a,

We had an outfit such as you speak of up to the end of summer 99, we both worked for it! Due to the boss hacking so many people off over the years with bad promises and things, he couldn't raise enough cash to complete some unexpected 'C' check work at AUH. How anyone could expect to send an ageing 1011 on a 'C' check and just budget enough for the main check beats me. Not surprising it folded given this kind of decision making.

It worked well and was a fairly happy bunch, give or take a couple of "growlers" (and we both know who so no names here!!) and it made a lot of loot over the summer but failed due to bad management practices at the very top. If you do not have a sharp management team with innovative ideas (I don't count planning to base an aircraft in Algeria for several months with the UK foreign office saying not to go there unless you ABSOLUTELY have to as innovative) winter is a VERY hard time for ACMI and the suchlike. I remember the first winter I was there, wondering on a weekly basis if I was going to be paid this month.

All the above may be a little off the point, but it only goes to illustrate how you need more than a good Operational team to make something like this work, top management need to be THE BEST.

There is plenty of room for an Excel/Atlanta type operation in the UK. Ours used mostly North American pilots with the odd (apt in some cases!) European thrown in. The Brits didn't like it but it cost a lot of money to type rate a 1011 pilot from scratch and North America has plenty so it made financial sense, as I suspect does the Excel idea.

I wish all in these ventures well. If they can make it work, good on them. It's not only pilots who need jobs and these operations provide employment for many. Some of my happiest work times were when involved with that operation. ACMI can be fun.

Best to all involved and sincere best wishes to all looking for work within the industry.

Doc C.

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: Doctor Cruces ]</p>

P.S.

Emerald Airways have been wet leasing a Lithuanian (I think) registered AN26 for the last year or so because it's cheaper to operate than getting another 748 and employing UK pilots.

Don't see anyone complaining about that!

Doc C.

monkee

OI Dipstick.... to the best of my knowledge 11/9 was last year unless you can look into the future as well as talk aload of bo**ocks.. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Hey Cyberbird <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . .Enjoy your time now...you'll be sitting in "sunny" Crawley soon <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> and flying around the mediterranean <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . .I don't understand people problems against Excel <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> They are doing something right! Very professional and friendly bunch of people.. .Ciao

Hey Xenia - Thanks for the good wishes, but just polishing my sailboat at Nice /not too far from the airport/ gets a bit boring after a while, if you see your colleagues taking of from Nice in their nice &shiny jets -doing some nice SIDs by doing wide right climbing turns with T/O-flaps away from the "Promenade des Anglais" ... looks great - especially at night with all the lites on ... . .I'd also fancy a bunch of nice visuals & night approaches in Larnaca, Kefallini or Crete whereever, rather than just sitting around- seeing my (Offshore-) Bank-account melting away ... - probably getting "a bit rusty" in the meanwhile; at least AAI is taking good care of their pilots-workforce /even those being momentarily "out of job" by putting them regularly in the GECAT-Sim in LGW from time to time for recurrency-training ...

Beside that, I can live without sitting in "Sunny Crawley" having another beer in the "Brannigans"- ^not much else to do there.... .Therefore I'd rather "bomb down to Brighton" in my old TRIUMPH-Roadster with some nice &young EXCEL-colleagues, once we've got some time off... ... or renting some light single in Shoreham (really very friendly &helpful people there!) - and taking it over to the channel island or visiting one of the numerous Air-Shows around in spring -or just enjoy flying over Sussex &the shoreline -by the way: what the name of the two big windmills there: "Jil& Gil" or so !? Great fun- just the hedges are really a mess in case ...) -Why I'm posting you all that!?. .'cause life is what you make out of it !!

See U in the CONCORDE-House ;-)) :) . .---------------------------------------

P.S. If U clip my wings - I'll die !!!

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: Cyberbird ]</p>

"The 'odd' UK charter jet at JED..."

Oh, that'll be one of the 6 Britannia, 3 Airtours, 1 JMC, and 1 Air Scandic that are doing Haj this year then!

Yep....

Like I said "the odd Uk charter jet"... AAI alone will have more aircraft than this in JED this year.. .With JMC having 25 aircraft or so its a shame they can only find flying for there new shiny A330. Seeing as there German owners send a number of there Condor aircraft down there, you would have thought more work could be found for the UK fleet.

Xenia how can you read cyberbirds's post and tell us that this "flag of convenience" business plan is the way ahead for professional flight crew? I don't have anything against any of the guys employed by Air Atlanta or Excel. But these companies are trying to create a situation where employees have to live and be paid offshore and sit waiting for a phone call. Is this your idea of a rosy future for our industry?

ShotOne, I never said that this is a rosy future for aviation, it is NOT indeed. I understand the situation and deeply sympathize (however u spell that) with all the professional aircrew (both F/D and CC) who are being lay off at this time, and CC who are on temporary summer contracts, know few of them at their 4th season now! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .We are all men and women trying to pay mortgages and to raise families! how could I possibly agree? The only thing I haven't got very clear on my mind is...why keep blaming Excel for Air Atlanta pilots sitting at home? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .The rumor of Air Atlanta 767 F/D not flying during the winter was already a topic of conversation last summer, far before Sep 11 event.... . .Unfortunatelly it looks like, lately, we all are in the same boat (A/C)... And the situation, far away from being pinky is black, worldwilde <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . .Cyberbird...I just wanted to make u smile, as usual :) . .Finally, I would like to own my own airline, in a perfect world...with wonderful pay, benefit and contract for all my boys and girls, with fab rosters...but again...I will probably be out of business in a few months....and it will be, again, the never ending story <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

Shotone. .I understand that last year Excel had American pilots. .both Captains and F/Os working for them. No doubt they are planning the same this year. Does anybody Know the legal situation regarding immigration??

Yeah....pilots came with their A/C. I believe it's call a wet lease :) . .When the season ended...pilots went back to sunny Miami <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> with their A/C.... .Who said whimping and moaning where duties reserved to CC??? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .If you find yourself getting bored, try to get into some sort of activities <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> or try to get into a more rewarding and secure flying job. If you find something, let all us know.... . .I am sure Excel did right procedures according to law and emigration....don't you think it would have been a bit to silly to risk it everyday, few times a day if it was not legal? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Happy Landings <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>