How about dressing up with your mate as policemen carrying your Uzi submachine guns through.:eek:

When was the last time you saw a bobby being stopped for a glance at his ID.:ok:

Every day it's a different challenge by a different jobsworth:=

Did
:}

Instead of whingeing on Pprune why not write to you MP, to Gwyneth Dunwoody (chairman of the Transport Select Committee), the Home Office, your Base Captains, your Chief Pilots, your Compnay Council reps, CHIRP, or someone who might take a bit of notice if several sacks of mail turned up on their doorstep or in their ministerial dispatch boxes?

Maybe pilots for once should get unified about an issue instead of waiting for someone else to do something about it? :ugh:

You haven't actually read the thread have you Firestorm...:ugh:

Errr... I seem to remember two terrorist bomb attacks on the London Transport system, one succesful and another successful one on the Madrid railway system. Now, how many times have you had to go through a security system to get on those transport systems since then? Speak up! I can't hear you.

The only thing I can infer from the current Terror Porn show is that the current DfT rules are so good that the aura of their success has somehow managed to filter out and cover the Underground and Bus transport network in its absolute efficiency. In fact, the people behind the current security procedures are so brilliant that there hasn't been anyone trampled by a rampaging elephant in the UK since they implemented their regime either. :rolleyes:

Sadly, I believe the petition will be of no use. It is a fob used by the Bliar governemnt to let the people think they actually have a say. The DfT will simply say that they have to implement their regime in the current way because it is so successful and they are not at liberty to tell us why because it is strictly on a need to know basis. It is the classical Catch-22 situation and they know it. :ugh:

Fear not, those little dictators at the security checkpoints who blindly follow the orders from the security dictators above are keeping the airways safe from exploding nail clippers and you can rest safe in the knowledge that you are most unlikely to be hit by a rampaging elephant. Well, at least in the UK. :hmm:

Next step
 

We hear that Cern will be launching another mega machine to determine the theory of everything......and that got me thinking.....

One of the theories is that there are lots of parallel universes out there....

What I want to know from the Physicists (and I think I have the right..as my tax Euros have payed for their little toy) is exactly how do I get a ticket to go to one of these parallel universes.....

The one where you can take your kid to see the cockpit......that taking a flight was one of life's little excitements to look forward to........
Some of you may even remember that universe........
P.S. if they could als make it the one where Burnley could win a Championship again...that would be great...but perhaps at this point I go too far........

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airside/


Keep signing guys, good effort so far :ok:

I do....
I sidestepped into one of those parallel universes for a couple of hours... on one of the last "round-the-bay" AF Concorde flights.
Including a cockpit visit, to see it all still worked as I helped to plan, design and test it nearly thirty years before.
And the flight was a big excitement, not a little one.
No names or numbers.... the thought police might be watching....

Re Airside Petition
 

Well its wet and miserable outside and the telly is rubbish, so I decided to scroll through the list of petitioners to see who I knew, (honest, life here is not that sad yet, and as an added bonus saw names that rang a bell from thru the mists of time). What I did notice was the names from my own company and how few of the many hundreds of pilots (and indeed cabin crew as well) that we employ I recognised and are actually listed. Is it not possible that we could all mention this petition to our crews tomorrow and see if they are actually aware that it is running? Is it possible that there are operational crew not aware of it ( and dare i ask it, not aware of pprune???). Personal preference to sign it but the more people that are made aware of its exsistance the better. I seem to recall that the musician mob lobbied very well and carried their demands with sheer numbers and a well argued case?

Do you mean at STN - Stansted?

I imagine, all UK Airports would have to do these new tests under DFT Instructions. :yuk:

How Dangerous, Very - If it's Nitroglycerin your testing!

Thank you for your astute, well constructed observation and invaluable advice SLFguy.

You obviously think that Pprune is more influential than it really is. The discussion here is interesting, and the exchange of views and experiences is useful in as much as we come to realize that our individual experiences are not isolated, but part of a long string of inconsistencies perpetrated by the security contractors at UK airports. My point is that the people who need to know about this state of affairs will not be reading Pprune: they have better things to do with their time. If we want things to change we have to send carefully documented reports of each incident to the People In Charge. This applies equally, albeit separately, to crews and passengers.

I say that it applies separately because we are different. As crew we go through background checks, similar to a low level vetting, which is supposed to allow us unhindered access to the restricted zone to carry out our duties as aircrew. Passengers do not have this level of access, and have no background check, and neither should they: there is no need for them to have either. Passengers should be treated with respect, and not with the suspicion that they are all potential criminals. Crew should be treated like professionals, otherwise it rather exposes the background check as a wasted exercise in unnecessary intrusion into one's private details, and a costly one at that.

I come back to my first post, however. It's not much use making these posts here on Pprune: we all have a similar opinion and have had similar experiences at the hands of the Goons. Our experiences should be sent to people ho can exert some influence, and who are actually in a position to make decisions. There are plenty of people to whom our letters can be sent to (as listed previously).

SLFguy: you won't be aware of this I don't expect, but some of the pilot's organizations are currently compiling reports from crew about the inconsistencies and heavy handed approach towards crews. To assist in this it would be really helpful if crews would forward their letters to the relevant organizations, one letter per report will carry more weight than one letter with several reports in it. SLFguy: it would be very helpful if you could submit your complaints to your MP, and probably to the airport manager at the appropriate airport, and probably to the Chairman of The Transport Select Committee.

Pilots are notoriously spineless as a group. We are all intelligent and reasonably educated, and well capable of putting together an accurate and well constructed report of an incident at staff search, so do it! We can help ourselves, and should do so instead of waiting for someone to do it for us in which case it won't happen. Ever.

I've said more than enough here, so will not be taking further part in this 'discussion', but am going to spend my time writing letters to those who can help the situation.

Firestorm

Perhaps you should follow your own advice.......





Edit; Sorry, I see you propose to do that, from your last post. That's nice. Good Luck. If you had read the thread you may have seen that other people had said much the same thing. But who am I to comment, I do long, boring off-the-point posts, usually called rants, too.

Firestorm, if you like I'll give you some tips on publicity, eg getting someone to get a letter printed in the Times (see this thread, as per previous suggestion that you should read it).

Sf guy


You ( and everyone else reading this) may or may not be aware that the regulations are also causing problems for air traffic control staff too. Again, the regulations seem to be enforced/interpreted differently depending which airport you are at. Some control towers are not 'airside' so the problem doesn't exist, some are provided with liquids by their employers (milk deliveries for example can be done by a 'deemed safe 'person). My particular experience is that no liquids/butter/yoghurts etc are allowed airside and therefore i am currently expected to work up to 9 hours with only water to drink. (this would be on a night shift- during the day we are currently told we can go to the airport terminal to buy a drink thus using the greater portion of our mandatory rest break to get a drink!).

The system has thrown up so many ridiculous irregularities and contradictions at my particular airport you simply wouldn't believe it.

Anyway, my full support as a uk ATCO to all the air crews, ground crews etc who have to put up with this nonsense, and i will be writing to my m.p. transport select commitee etc.

One last thought; current regulations would allow myself, working entirely on my own on a night shift (no assistant etc) to control several passenger aircraft departing xxxx early in the morning( after having only water supplied to drink all night),maybe coinciding with a pilot/air crew who've just gone through 'security' and feeling a little stressed. The passengers have had their liquids checked etc but are loaded up with stuff they've bought airside that simply has been delivered off a lorry straight into the airside shops without being checked.

Happy days

Can someone please explain why this situation persists when "duty free" shops and restaurants which are airside can bound along business as usual, raking in some of the highest margins in retail and catering for the airport operator (and of course pax can take such purchased items right inside the aircraft with them), but that same operator will not allow these items to be taken in by ATC personnel (read no profit margin for the airport operator).

Security concerns my posterior.

sense is clearly not common in security..

I've also always wondered why a guy working for Pret a Manger for example, is considered safe enough to bring 50 bottles of water and coke through the same security checkpoint as where they take 1 bottle of water away from an airline captain.
When asking the security officer about it, they respond with "these bottles come from a secure location". At my airport, this is so untrue, cause whenever I walk to the terminal, stacks of bottles are parked near the lifts underneath the terminal building and anyone (no ID needed, landside) can take them. And besides that, security claims that I as a captain could have interfered with my water bottle, but apparently somebody from a sandwich shop could never do that???? :uhoh:
I wish I got the respect of a bar tender when I go to work... :{

Security in Edinburgh
 

I have been told that the Security staff at Edinburgh now have to search all Flight Crew when they arrive from abroad as they no longer trust "Foriegn" secuity. This only applies if the crew concerned wish to remain "Airside" for any reason.
Can anyone throw any light on this? Are we in the UK becomming paranoid?

As a pax, I had to go through search when arriving at and departing from LGW on connecting international flights.

Then again, I've had to do the same at DXB, FRA, ZRH and other major airports.

Security
 

Blackball, Yes you are right. When we come back from Europe, after we leave the aircraft we clear customs which takes us off airside. We then have to go through the monkeys on staff search to go airside again to get to the crewroom in order to complete post flight duties! Utter farce. The only light I can shed on it is that it is jobs for the boys!:ugh:

Final 3 greens, we have to put with this nonsense everyday, your lucky you are a passenger.

Harry

Not that it will make you feel any better, but I have to put up with it about 120 times per year, which is bad enough.

And we don't have an expedited channel like crew members often do. Yes, there is "Fast Track", but that took 25 minutes last Wednesday evening at LHR - should be against the Trade Descriptions Act :ugh:

re: airside security at Edinburgh
 

I watched a refueller being frisked by a security agent under the wing of a Delta Airlines 767, which was parked on stand 4 yesterday morning.

Is this some local arrangement "Delta" have with their refuellers at Edinburgh?

Also what were they actually hoping to achieve, with the refuelling bowser actually parked under the wing and the hose connected, at the point the refueller was frisked by the security chappie?:D

Re EDI security
No surprise there ,of all the places all over the world i have worked these guys get the award as a uniquely beligerent bunch of goons , none of this has anything to do with security, when will the public wake up and realise that they are paying for this nonsense .
Superb letter in the (Glasgow) Herald today from a GLA based CPT about the confiscation of his tabasco sauce.Sorry im not very techy so cant post a link !

BAA airport "security" directors had better wake up soon and realise that they are at risk of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.I have travelled a lot as a passenger lately and the entire airport experience is one entire ghastly , stressful unneccesary mess .Our customers will soon migrate to other modes of transport if this keeps up.

"security" is a catch all excuse for levying higher fees and little hitlers to go about massaging their egos ."its your security" no it isnt .My security would be greatly enhanced if we targeted the guys climbing over the fence setting fire to parked aircraft , how many grannies were being frisked at GLA whlist that little number took place ?

Get real folks or you will have us all out of a job .

I do not want special treatment , just a modicum of common sense and profesional courtesy please !

ps. i do not envy the staff at the business end trying to impliment ever stranger regimens , buy and large they do a good job of wading through all the nonsense from above .

Here you go....

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/...th_reality.php

What an excellent letter - well done that man :D

:D Nice letter !!

I got through EDI staff search twice last week with a bottle of water in my flight bag ! Didn't realise it was in there 'til I was on the aircraft!

The interesting thing is that there is no rebutal from the BAA over these fiascos.
It almost makes one believe that there must be truth in these articles. I know itsot politically correct to harp back to 1939, but I don't recall from the history books that the Gestapo took such draconian measures.
It really is pleasant to be living in Blairs/Brown's "Third Reich".

Interesting to see what is been said about GLA goons as came across one today who didn’t seem to understand English i.e. I asked that he use the electric wand which I prefer to a groping by hand. For some reason he took exception to this as I heard him say as I was walking away some people are unbelievable! Now what on earth do you think his problem was with a request that was made in a polite manner?

I guess it must just be a case of pay peanuts get monkeys and I apologise to all monkeys for using that analogy.

He also honestly felt that he was doing some good by searching me as he said you can’t be too safe. I didn’t even bother to explain the futility of his actions as one needs a brain to comprehend.

Passed through LDY last Saturday morning. Not a usual stop for our airline so we were unaware of the utter nonsense that awaited us.

There is no designated staff security so we went through pax search. I went through first and my bags were screened. No problem. FO and Cabin Crew were told that their baggage would have to go down the belt at check in and they could collect it themselves once airside. They could not bring any of their baggage through pax screening because they contained cosmetics, shampoo etc.

Bear in mind that my baggage also contained toiletries from our night stop and was screened by same goon that insisted other members of my crew return to check in. I brought to there attention the fact that my bags was also full of 'hazardous materials' to which I received what sounded like a grunt and a shrug of a shoulder.

I was fuming at this stage and made my feelings known to both grunters and shoulder shruggers alike. When the crew returned from check in they were then further insulted by being asked to wear a high vis jacket before proceeding airside. You guessed it......high vis jackets had just been checked in. :ugh:

When we finally made it outside to the ramp it was pissing with rain and after collecting their bags we all arrived at the aircraft seething and not in the correct frame of mind to perform the five sector day that lay ahead of us.

I believe Logan Air crews tolerate this BS on a regular basis in LDY and would greatly appreciate any input.

The Bear.

On a more serious note, this is indeed the hole in the whole liquids through security thing, but to point it out to the :mad: in charge of the security empire would probably result in a total liquid ban again.

I wonder what would happen if someone got a bunch of 125ml containers, had some labels printed that looked like the originals but said 100ml on them? I've not yet seen a bucket of water at security to check actual volumes yet.

The best way to deal with this is simple, select a date begining of the school summer holidays is a goody, ALL airside airport employees not just pilots, to have a couple of days off!!!!!!! then you would see some real chaos!....if only every one would do it?????????????

Guys, I asked the question before but got no real answer: anyone figure out a way for foreign aircrew to sign this e-petition? As it stands, only UK residents and/citizens can sign. Presumably continental Europeans cannot. Australian pilots (me) flying into LHR cannot. And I want to - the insane UK security affects us all.

Ideas, anyone?

Just click the expat offering and put an overseas address.:}

I understand its the DFT who are making the rules and that these "operatives" are following orders but why they have to treat us like 5 year olds each morning has reached a head with me now. It's like a running battle and I'm fed up of the stress and hassle every single day I go through the security channels to do my job.

Up here at MAN they are now bringing in mandatory trials of Iris recognition for access airside. Since I have got an airside ID - is this now worthless - where will it end ?

I'm fed up...

Jay Arr’s got a good point but Mike’s novel idea wouldn’t be used by many non UK pilots. Isn’t there someone, on the Computer Forum perhaps, who could produce an independent (and properly worded) Petition where non UK pilots can have their say. This could then be formally presented to Downing Street, maybe by IFALPA, with a demand that it be made part of the UK Petition. Anyone?

Yes guys, for any petition to be taken seriously and respected, people must use genuine names and addresses. Won't be credible otherwise and could actually work against the intent.

Mods - do you have the necessary software tools within this bulletin board to create such a petition? You will surely get a lot of foreign signatures.

Why in hell are 100% of crew at LHR required to remove shoes, whilst only a random selection of pax have to?

Retread 7

The problem is, from previous experiences they are either cannot read English or are too busy on a tax payers, all expenses paid junket to take note let alone respond. (Certainly my ex MP Laura Moffett falls into this category).