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And this one; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykzqF...elated&search= applies to both sides of the Atlantic.
If I may relate a personal experience from a few weeks ago as I was passing through the bowels of Manchester Airport where flight crew have to go to be screened separately from the 'Mall Shoppers' upstairs. I was with my crew, all 18 of us plus our escort who had an ID that actually worked the various doors we had to traverse through to get back up the the departure gate. Those crew who had various personal items in their little baggies were dutifully showing them to the screeners when I noticed on the far side of the checkpoint, a worker came into the area with one of those tall wire trolleys used to transport goods from the delivery vans to the retailers stock rooms. In the trolley were several bundles of 1 litre bottles of drinking water. Each bundle had about a dozen bottles shrink wrapped in clear plastic together. The worker then had to put each bundle of shrink-wrapped water through the X-ray machine!!!! :rolleyes: The bottles were clear as was the wrapping. There was only clear liquid, most probaby water, in the bundles. What was so obvious to us was that the 'security' monkeys, (I use the word 'security' advisedly and apologise to monkeys for insulting their intelligence and discretionary thinking) could just have looked at the bundles and seen that there were no sharp or solid objects hidden within the bottles but they had to go through the motions of x-raying them anyway. What was also glaringly obvious was that no attempt was made to check that the contents of the bottles was indeed water as that would have meant that they were rendered unsaleable. So, as we crew were having our aftershave and lip-gel inspected to make sure we didn't have more than the prescribed 100ml, a worker was bringing through at leat 120 litres of clear liquid to be left airside, unchecked except for sharp pointy things inside! Now they want to introduce random sampling of the liquids! It really is the asylum being taken over by the patients. It smacks of Ministry Muppets thinking up new ways to justify their existence. It has absolutely nothing to do with security. Why, after the underground bombings, is there still no system of security measures in place other than public vigilance? I don't see bombs and terrorist acts being repeated on the trains every other day. The same applies to airport security. The way it is implemented is nothing but a sham and designed to fool the gullible public that something is actually being done. Bring in proper profiling and use intelligence to filter out those people most likely to carry out acts of violence on an aircraft... those whose intent is to carry out an act of terrorism and not the 99.99999% of the rest of us who are not a threat. Someone with the intent on causing mayhem and disaster is not going to get past a properly trained profiler when they know that they are likely to meet their maker or vestal virgins once they get successfully airborne. |
At our security check area this morning there were five 'guards' on duty.
No.1 stood outside the entrance smoking, hopefully just a cigarette. No.2 sat at the desk and inspected my 'Landside Only' ID card. No.3 sat watching my bag and jacket as it passed through the X-ray machine. No.4 and 5 were eating a heated meal. Next to them both sat a 330ml bottle of orange juice and a 330ml bottle of fruit crush drink, both with plastic obscuring wrapping. Did I say anything? Not on your life! Are these muppets really given a more thourough screening than us? Do these muppets pass through security on the way to work? If not, why not. How come they can sit airside with their meals and drinks and I am only allowed an empty water bottle? Thank God I fly short-haul. Write to your MP. Make a noise for goodness sake! http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ |
Well still no word from the 10 Downing street website to say nay or yay to the petition. Im wondering if they are worried by the amount of people who might sign it?
Once its approved and up and running i'll post the link....if thats allowed? |
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Video
Another youtube classic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LBAmLEG1bM&NR=1
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At the bottom of the page from the link above
"A senior Lufthansa pilot pointed out the idiocy to me - he is not allowed to carry e.g. nail clippers, a problem on long-haul flights where he may be away from home for up to a week at a time. Yet right behind his pilot's seat is a three-foot-six fire axe. Joined-up thinking?" Rob |
The notice on entry to the security zone says something on the lines that security staff have the right to work without being verbally or physically abused - so what gives them the right to do it to us.
UK security sucks - for gods sake even the Tsa are professional and polite and that costs nothing wake up Transec before you put us all out of a job.:mad: |
A great thread, normally there are many opposing views but this one is virtually unanimous in opinion. I regularly fly from LHR as a passenger & it's become a total nightmare. Lines of people stretching through the entire terminal & up to the carpark at T3 waiting to clear 'security' being harrassed & shouted at by these morons is just beyond belief. Then notices that, "passengers only," may enter T4 so if you're going away from home for a long time no sweet goodbyes from your loved ones anymore! The BAA may be looking forward to the grand opening of T5 but if this crap keeps on for just a little while longer LHR will be a ghost airport: people are already starting to avoid the place like the plague. I know: I work with many nationalities who are now flatly refusing to use LHR because of the moronic security staff & there Draconian measures.
When I travel into Europe I will always opt for the ferry. Guess what? No brainless security, no a$$hole making a worker's or a traveller's day a misery. But guess what else? No terrorist action carried out on the ship. How come? You could drive a car or van packed with explosives of any description & obliterate the ship, but they don't, God forbid they ever do, but it's certainly not the lack of security that is putting these bastards off. As a previous poster has said, I have walked through security with all of my liquids in my hand luggage by mistake: shampoo, shower gel, after shave, toothpaste etc., & the scanner never picked it up. Are we therefore relying on the budding terrorist to be honest & admit that he has his nitro in his hand luggage & then dutyfully put it into a clear palstic bag? We have a real flight safety issue developing here & it's about time that this nanny state inducing, overly p.c. Government in the UK started to really tackle the problem not produce putrid sound bites that do no good for anyone. If they don't then they'll be tolling the bell as the UK civil avaition industry goes down the pan. |
X-Centric
Sorry but for Pax the measures are a fact of life and may serve some purpose. For aircrew however a solution needs to be found as suggested in the link above. |
Once again I must complain about the idiotic security at Manchester. Last Friday myself, Husband and 18month old flew to LHR. My Son's change bag was scanned. "There are liquid items in it" I was told. There obviously wasn't. So it went through again. "Yes there are, they are long, thin and at this end of the bag." Ahh, wet wipes! So I asked could this be what was being shown on the screen? No I was told and promptly had most of the contents removed from the bag. Except for the wipes. Once again the bag is xrayed and look, there is still something wet and long in there.
Once again I am ranted at about liquids, once again I explain that it will be the wet wipes. So I take them out and the bag is screened. Again. TA DA! The mysterious long, thin, wet thing is gone! Yesterday, whilst on duty, after being scanned and patted down I was asked if I minded my handbag being randomly searched? As this has happened just about everytime I have passed through for the last two weeks, I replied "yes, actually, I did." I also asked how this was catching any "terrorists". The answer? We don't make the rules. I absolutely fail to see how any of this is helping. The DfT are fools and are making more and more people, who love their jobs, deeply unhappy and stressed for no good reason. T then asked about testing of liquids. Apparantely they are to test every 10oth liquid for now and in the future it will be every 50th!! Yes they do actully stick litmus paper into tubes of toothpaste.:ugh: |
Quote:
Sorry but for Pax the measures are a fact of life and may serve some purpose. For aircrew however a solution needs to be found as suggested in the link above. I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Security is surly and off-putting for the paying punters (who, as we need no reminding, we rely on for our wages), as well as us. Pax can see as well as we can that the rules are arbitrary and unnecessarily brusquely enforced. I hate the thought of my punters being upset for no good reason before flying. CC |
"I hate the thought of my punters being upset for no good reason before flying"
Chuffer - it is very kind of you to have such consideration. But, as ex-aircrew-now-frequent flier, I am far more concerned that YOU and your colleagues should not be upset for any good reason before flight. The arrogance of these bottom-fondling failed wheelclampers and toothpaste checkers is frankly absurd. Time that the whole $odding lot of them were booted back to the dole queues whence they crawled..... As for the anally-retentve DfT - just what planet are they from? Regarding standards of security: UK - sometimes shoes and belt. Always long queues. FRA - sometimes shoes, sometimes belt, sometimes watch. Presumably these peoples' ancestors collected gold teeth? Other German airports are far more friendly and sensible than the cretins at FRA; I now try to avoid the place unless there's no feasible option. |
The terminally clueless sub-species of SLF doesn't help matters either. I picked the wrong security queue yesterday because someone about three in front of me hadn't done the business with the liquids and the plastic bag and so held up the queue while the offending items were sorted. Then the one in front of me, who'd just stood there for a few minutes and watched all this taking place, did exactly the same thing. I like to think that had that been me, I would have successfully put two and two together and achieved four, and been sorting my carry-on before reaching the front of the queue.
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The most striking thing about the vast majority of posts here, all posted by the oh so knowlegable "experts":rolleyes: , is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents.
The one thing I can guarantee is that, without exception, you'd all be squealing like stuck pigs and running to your ambulance chasing lawyers if the rules were relaxed and your flight was caught up in any type of incident.:rolleyes: :ugh: |
The most striking thing about the vast majority of posts here, all posted by the oh so knowlegable "experts" , is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents. |
Niknak - do you work for the DfT because just like them, you just don't get it, do you? My day would indeed be ruined due to an act of terrorism on my aircraft but it ain't going to be or my crew 'terrorising' and it isn't going to be due to my having taken a 150 ml can of aftershave on board, either.:ugh:
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Profiling is the best option
Unfortunately it upsets the PC brigade... Sigh! |
it's not only you pilots who get the pounding...controllers on one of our aiports are not allowed any more to come to twr via rotating doors any more (please note that to enter those doors one needs valid magnetic card and to enter next doors card is needed as well, and there IS a video camera installed on both doors). No, now they must pass the security gate, where they are put to daily SS treatment, regardless that a) all the security know all the controllers b) for an atco to make an act of terrorism...well its the same as with pilots (you either trust them or you shoot them on site).
I think this treatment of us, professionals is showing, that there is no trust whatsoever towards us, and that semi-literate SS individual on security passage has power to humiliate you and us every day. |
Originally Posted by niknak
The most striking thing about the vast majority of posts here, all posted by the oh so knowlegable "experts" , is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents.
Security is not absolute, the only way to prevent an incident is not to fly. otherwise there is always a risk. Most people think that the security restrictions on the pax are Over the top. (especially given that we regularly pick up pax overseas with little or no screening, who can bring what they want onto the a/c). Everyone accepts that to apply the same screening to the aircrew is just moronic. I don't need liquids, I don't need a toothpick, I'm already in control of the aircraft. To commit a terrorist act you need means and motivation. Lets concentrate on screening people for the motivation. Also I agree with the previous poster that I would prefer my pax not to be annoyed when they get on the plane. Air rage incidences are on the increase, I wonder why? :* |
AlexL,
There may not have been a court case but there has been a case where a terrorist blew a large hole on a 747: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp...nes_Flight_434 Why do we need a court case to proof this? The facts are simple, where there is a will there is a way, as long as there are conflicts between nations, ethnic groups and religion groups we will see acts of violence against each other there is no way of stoping this, we should concentrate on creating a more peaceful planet (i know this is wishful thinking) i accept there is always going to be a conflict between people but by reducing the conflicts the less violence we shall see therefore less need of security measures which are often handicapped and cause more problems with it. The world's problems are escalating and all we seem to be doing is patch fix them but in the meantime more conflicts happen and the people in turn get more frustrated and scared there is only so much we can take, the path we seem to be on now is the path to WWIII. |
The notice on entry to the security zone says something on the lines that security staff have the right to work without being verbally or physically abused The notice really means: Having paid an exhorbitant sum for the service you expect from us, you are now going to be delayed, harassed and shoved around by a bunch of cretins obeying our incompetent and invisible management's directives to the letter, which have been read very slowly to them because they have between them the IQ of a bar of soap. If you react in any way other than subservient acquiescence to this appalling treatment, the cretins have been told to accuse you of being disruptive and summon the police to arrest you. DO NOT ARGUE OR RESIST. |
The focus should be on sensible profiling of anyone who's operating crew on any commercial aircraft, be it flight deck or cabin crew - we are the people who have open access to the flight deck and no amount of security checking just prior to a flight is going to reduce the risk of a 'sleeper' having that access to the flight deck - hence the overriding importance of thorough profiling!
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Very funny, just a shame that it's also 100% correct.
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ClearfinalsNo1:
Don't be concerned. 1. The time to look at the screen is doubtless taking longer because the IT systems are running slower and slower as time passes. 2. In the "good old days" we wish to return you always got stamps in your passport each time in/out, and the officer could see a complete record of where you had been. Nobody got worried then. |
The amount of 'security' that pax should be subjected to will plainly fluctuate as does the 'threat level.
For aircrew, however, the sole purpose of contact with 'security' is to give the crew member whose family are being held hostage, a chance to express their concerns unobtrusively to someone who is in a position to help. I can see no other reason to detain aircrew, who will soon have total control of the aircraft and all the pax anyway. |
Originally Posted by Brain Fade
For aircrew, however, the sole purpose of contact with 'security' is to give the crew member whose family are being held hostage, a chance to express their concerns unobtrusively to someone who is in a position to help.
firstly these minimum wage muppets in 'security' are in no postion to 'help' if anything real actually happened. For that you need the police, specifically the anti-terrorist mob or special branch. Secondly this thin excuse is often wheeled out to justify the treatment that aircrew get. even the terrorist planners know that kidnapping a pilots family is a non starter. These are not rational 'sensible' bank robbers, these are murderous fanatical people, and cannot be trusted to keep their word. Plus coercing someone to kill 200 people is a tad different to coercing them to steal a couple of million quid of their employers dosh that is insured and traceable anyway. Anyway If that ever happened to me (i don't consider it even a slim threat, as I KNOW it will never happen) I would phone the police the minute I was out the front door. next stupid excuse for this treatment? anyone? |
Thread drift..... years ago (20+ years ago) my father found himself consistently receiving more attention from customs/immigration when flying into Aus. Went on for a number of flights until he finally inquired as to what the bl@@dy hell was going on.
Transpired he'd SAT NEXT to a suspect of some sort on an earlier flight! So he'd been tagged for scrutiny until they were satisfied he was clean and not associated with the other chap. :uhoh: :ooh: So who knows what they have on you these days. Better declare that excess booze, eh? Oh and brain fade - your username is unfortunately apt. That simply isn't the reason crew are forced through security. If it was actually the reason I think they would have told us by now. Clearly you are not a pilot... |
Good one today at LHR. Staff search has a sign up saying random shoe search. But the guy at the scanner gets very ar5ey when everyone is not taking their shoes off. He then shouts at someone "the sign says everyone should take off shoes" to which a few of us tell him it doesn't. Does the sign get changed? Does it hell! So I started my day a little annoyed that someone had shown me a bit of attitude for following what their sign said which was not what they wanted me to do??????
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For aircrew however a solution needs to be found as suggested in the link above. Just freeze all your liquids and gels before you come to work. They are now no longer liquids. Keep 'em in one of those cooler-bags. Good luck.... tell us how it went! :ok: |
This nonsense has to stop.............
Passengers....yes, fine screen and security check them all you like but crew....No In order to get an airside pass we have criminal background checks and all the correct ID and documentation. I have heard of no security threat that involves a pilot or crew. I work for a cargo airline, 2 pilots on board, me and my captain, that's it. We have spent 12 hr nights before now with no drinking water on board, catering is not always available at freight aprons. This is absolutely unacceptable. It is a violation of human rights if nothing else! A one day strike for some point in the next six months is the only answer to make the DofT listen, I have written 2 letters and made 3 phone calls to no avail, the respone is always 'they are the rules, you must abide by them'. I'm all for the safest possible operations but common sense has flown out the window here. ONE DAY INDUSTRY WIDE AIRCREW STRIKE.......maybe a pprune thread, all sign if in favour? :ugh: |
Alex
I'm not defending 'security'. Rather simply pointing out a simple truth. "Always stop legitimate peeps entering a secure area, so that if they are a proxy bomb victim they can unobtrusively speak out" Is that hard to follow? Ron and edna In a previous life I was in the (British) Army. We stopped EVERYONE so that if they were a proxy they could at least state the fact. Several guys got a gong for driving said vehs away. Take my point? ps 7500 mostly jet. Flying since I was 15 |
stellair,
Flying 12 hours without adequate hydration is
So either you fly 3 hour legs or you take on board sufficient fluids to maintain adequate hydration which is required to sustain mental alertness. |
Does any one else remember the Viz cartoon strip, 'The Bottom Inspectors'. I'm reminded of it right now!
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Oh brain fade,
The reason all crew go through security is because "they" are terrified that terrorists are going to grab some uniforms and mascarade as pilots. That's because there is no universal identification system, and currently no way to check the 'pilot' presenting is, in fact, bona fide. So rather than implement such a system the easiest way is just screen all pilots. Many of us have been arguing for years that there should be such a universal system to confirm this to be a legitimate pilot and the authorised pilot of flight XYZ. And if a Capt's wife and kids really are being held hostage whilst Capt tries taking something through, WHY do you think he's more likely to "express his concerns" to security goons vs making a mobile phone call to the cops? If he hasn't made such a phone call then he's hardly likely to 'fess up to security - he'll probably just stay silent and hope to get through! But mate, this is a tired, tired old conspiracy theory - usually dreamed up by clones in dark rooms who, frankly, seem to be 50% ex-military types who've lived in a different world! It is so improbable! This is not how these guys work - there is too big a risk of being foiled. Far more likely scenarios are exactly what those fellows in England are going to jail for, and the 7/7 chaps. CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS? We are wasting untold manhours confiscating Captains' nail clippers, shaving cream and bottles or water when the resources should be focused elsewhere. In Australia airside workers (engineers, caterers, cleaners, etc) are still, yes STILL, going airside with just a cursory look at by security. They don't confiscate their water or any other liquids or even their weapons - because they are not metal screened! They go in the side gates still and it's "too expensive" to set up proper screening points at each gate.... Well, these people are arguably just as susceptible to your hostage conspiracy. So why isn't being addressed there? So brain fade, where do you see the biggest threat? A freighter Captain wanting to take a bottle of water on a 12 hr flight? An airside worker going to play with an aircraft unscreened? Or perhaps some disgruntled radical youths building a fertiliser bomb and driving a van - unscreened - into a shopping centre carpark? Where's the biggest threat, mate?! My argument as presented here is disjointed and circular, because frankly, I'm too frustrated with insane attitudes like yours to spend anymore time re-writing it! Virtually all professional pilots agree with me and have had a gutful of insulting, ineffectual "security" measures being imposed on us. Not one single pilot has been caught. Meanwhile our side gates, our shopping centres, our train stations, our beaches, our main streets continue to be wide open because of narrow minded thinking, such as yours. You're welcome to the last word, mate, because frankly you are not the bloke I need be arguing with to change things! |
brain fade
assuming the idea of 'proxy bomb victim' isn't a joke why in god's name would the current situation make any difference to that particular plot? if the idea is to force aircrew to destroy their own aircraft then you wouldn't need to arm them would you? Infiltrating any of the relatively low paid ground crew or security jobs would be the easiest way of getting at an aircraft, a situation being made easier by the large numbers of people being recruited to man staff the 'security' system. Anyway, my personal experience; I am a uk air traffic controller, arrive at work for shift recently,not allowed to bring in any drink, nor any liquids,butter etc to cook my meals with. As it turns out my first two hour radar stint is very busy. After this i have only tap water to drink in the tower building. Company provides no alternative. in my half hour break i just have time to walk , airside, to the terminal restaurant where i can buy a limited selection of pricey drinks and make it back to the tower before controlling again.I have been made aware that the drinks supplied to the airside restaurant are usually not checked, only some random scans take place.I feel incensed by this, i am trusted to make many decisions whilst controlling that have a direct effect on aircraft safety yet i can't be trusted with liquid. Further , the restrictions are useless anyway if not everythiung is checked. I just hope that the first aircraft in an incident caused by a stressed pilot or controller or both has dft staff has passengers. At the moment i feel like refusing to work as if i can not be trusted with liquids to drink or cook with then why shoul i be trusted in front of a radar screen? |
Much of what is happening is your fault. Sorry, that's the way I feel. I went out on a limb years ago fighting this bullsh1t, and got little but the sucking of teeth from my colleagues.
It grieves me to see the amount of stress and plain suffering...yes, suffering, that this madness is causing some crews, engineers and ATC workers. Why do you let it happen? I think that it's the quasi-military nature of the industry that has caused this situation to persist. A long history of taking orders. I have always been against militant unions, but this madness would never happen in a factory. Professionalism is just a word...crews are not treated as professionals. You had your chance...and blew it. It's easy to see why. In the late 60s, crews were asked if they thought they should carry their ‘status' to the outside world. i.e. be called Captain instead of Mr. Etc. It got a resounding NO. One of my captains said. "I think it's a trade, not a profession." Okay, that was his vote, but the man that said pilots would one day be equal to carriage drivers, wasn't far wrong. Carriage drivers is a clue to how long ago that was said. (From the Log c 1968) Some time ago I suggested that radical action would only hurt the airline and its investors, and that the main trust should be against the people that are making these bizarrely wrong policies. Now I'm not sure. An airline that lets its crews fly without fresh water and basic food should be prosecuted. It is counter to flight safety. Therefor, to take action that may hurt them is no longer out of bounds. They need to do far, far more to defeat this madness than they are doing. They pay huge amounts to the airports...surely they have some say it how things should be done. I am totally convinced that much of what is happening is caused by these ‘security' staff members gaining some kind of perverse pleasure by making professionals jump through ever more ridiculous hoops. You may think that this is too far fetched, but I'm all too aware of the extremes of behavior some people will go to if their lives have not met their expectations. Human nature is consistently inconsistent. If a professional aircrew member has to disrobe / de-shoe, fine, but then there should be a full account of the reasoning behind the search, in writing to the company involved. The norm should be pre-vetted clear passage with everything packed into their flight bags that God intended. |
qUOTE.
Anyway, my personal experience; I am a uk air traffic controller, arrive at work for shift recently,not allowed to bring in any drink, nor any liquids,butter etc to cook my meals with. As it turns out my first two hour radar stint is very busy. After this i have only tap water to drink in the tower building. Company provides no alternative. in my half hour break i just have time to walk , airside, to the terminal restaurant where i can buy a limited selection of pricey drinks and make it back to the tower before controlling again.I have been made aware that the drinks supplied to the airside restaurant are usually not checked, only some random scans take place.I feel incensed by this, i am trusted to make many decisions whilst controlling that have a direct effect on aircraft safety yet i can't be trusted with liquid. Further , the restrictions are useless anyway if not everythiung is checked. It is just getting out of control, I just hope that you guys or the airline guys go on strike over it I would definetely support it. (I´m in Exec-aviation, 4 guy ops and a strike would put me out of work most likely) I just wonder what any member of parliament would say if denied to have their own drinks for a whole shift? (what work do they anyhow?) As one that has an airside pass also for my car, I bring in "Liquids" almost by the ton - our catering. BUT when I pass the security checkpoint - got to get out of the car and walk to a screening point about 5 meters from said car - I´m not allowed to have more than a litre... I´m german and my licence is with the german authority. This means that I have to ask to get a socalled "ZÜP", a screening by all secret and criminal services in Germany, every 2 years. Then, if there is a record, a bloke at the "competent" authority can deny the renewal just because he feels like it. You are not told what the problem is apparently (wasn´t revoked yet - luckily). There is a way of fighting it, buts its a legal battle that can take years. Now, if you are from, say, Luxembourg, and you did an ATP in germany, you are NOT asked to have that sort of screening. This hole scheme was introduced by the former minister of internal affairs, Mr.Otto Schily, who just happened to be on of the lawyers for the RAF, the terrorist group that acted in germany mainly in the 70´s and 80´s, killed several people by bombing and shooting. When I think about the morons that do things like that to me, albeit by law they are sworn in to protect me and my freedom, I´m getting... |
Water Pistols?
Dunno if the Insecurity Staff would see the funny side, tho'.
I'm all for a strike this summer....and I think the crews will comply.:) |
Loose Rivet one of the most lucid threads I have seen on this subject to date. Chaps take heed to what he is saying moaning about it will not achieve anything!
I find it most satisfying when one of these plongers has a go i.e. their rude I call for the supervisor and file a complaint. I have one individual now that won’t come anywhere near me which suits me fine as she is an utterly unpleasant individual. If the nature of my experience even slightly raises my blood pressure I also file a CHIRPS report. They are very interested in this subject and you will not be wasting their time. The more reports they get the more they can do for us at a level we as individuals could never achieve. THIS IS A FLIGHT SAFETY ISSUE that is the point we should be pushing before we have another Staines! |
Niknak
The most striking thing about the vast majority of posts here, all posted by the oh so knowlegable "experts" , is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents. The one thing I can guarantee is that, without exception, you'd all be squealing like stuck pigs and running to your ambulance chasing lawyers if the rules were relaxed and your flight was caught up in any type of incident. Too non PC or just too sensible? Ron & Edna Johns are speaking alot of sense :ok: |
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