Letter from a 49'r
 

Fellow professional pilots:

The International Federation of Allied Pilots Association (IFALPA) has placed a recruitment
ban on Cathay Pacific Airways. If you would be so kind as to spare me a few minutes
of your time, I would like to tell you a little about why that ban was put in place.

Between July 06 and July 12 of this year, Cathay Pacific "randomly" sacked 52 of
its aircrew. Hong Kong law states that no reason is required to sack an individual
if he is given sufficient notice or pay in lieu. I was one of those 52 and like
the others received absolutely no notice. The "random" dismissals included 5 out
of 20 Union committee members and 4 out of 7 negotiators. There was no link with
flying capability, as all had fine training records. Three of the sacked pilot's
spouses were pregnant. Most of the 52 have families and dependents to support.
One pilot was receiving cancer treatment and another treatment for a serious heart
condition at the time of his termination.

The dismissals were meant to send a strong signal to the union to back off of its
negotiation requests and industrial action. Ironically, it has had the opposite
effect. On July 09, 49 of the 52 pilots were fired, earning those in the entire
group the title of "49ers". The press release on July 09 was arrogantly entitled
"The way to end the pilot's dispute". Their objectives are not financial (reported
profits for the year 2000 was $640 million USD), but rather to crush the pilot's
union as they have done with every other union on company property. In the first
two weeks of the dispute, the company had lost more money on charters and forward
bookings than the entire value of the union's requests.

Some of the 49ers were called in the middle of the night and read a termination notice.
Others were away and their surprised spouses received the termination letter by
fax. One tried to enter the building only to find his employee card did not work.
I found out with a DHL package in my mailbox and have not heard from the company
since. However, they have advised the Hong Kong Revenue Department that we were
all leaving town on short notice (untrue of course) and we were all therefore presented
with a bill for 1 1/2 years worth of income tax due in less than a week. I have
yet to receive a dime from the company.

The dispute occurred due to repeated contract violations and pointless talks to resolve
discrimination and unstable rostering. There are currently 32 different contracts
for Cathay Pacific's 1500 pilots. B scale is the tip of the iceberg. If a pilot
of Chinese heritage applies overseas, he may be hired on a local package (worth approximately
half of an overseas expatriate package), because he has inherited the right to work
in Hong Kong from his parents. This is irrelevant of his experience level and whether
or not he speaks a word of Cantonese or has ever set foot in Hong Kong.

Rosters are almost comically unstable. It is not uncommon to be rostered for a short
haul flight or a simulator, only to be hauled out after sign-on to perform a 5 day
pattern of ultra long haul. The vast majority of flights do not go with the crew
they were rostered for. It is impossible to predict where you will be on any given
day of the month. One sacked pilot had only worked 2 rostered flights in the 4 months
preceding his termination.

I, as with all the 49ers, am now working full time for the union. We do not consider
ourselves "fallen", but instead, we consider ourselves "hostages" in an industrial
confrontation. Accordingly, all Cathay Pacific pilots are now wearing yellow ribbons
on their uniform to remind all of our predicament. Spouses, peers and friends have
also attached a yellow ribbon to their chest to remind the public.

Although I devoted most of my free time to the union prior to this dispute (I was
not credited for any union time by the company), all of the 49ers are now employees
of the union, devoted to a fair contract and rehire. It is this unions policy not
to sign any agreement which does not include full reinstatement of the 49ers.

IFALPA has instituted this ban so that others do not come to Cathay Pacific to fill
my position and the positions of the 51 others. It is important for your peers to
realize that a pilot may attend an interview, but would be permanently blackballed
by IFALPA for signing a contract or accepting any flying position with Cathay Pacific
Airways until this dispute is resolved and the ban lifted. Please forward on this
message to your fellow aviators.

Thank you for your time.

Just one question Herb, what are the other 1451 ers ( 1500-49) doing. I thought that if anything they should be the one's backing you and the other 48, because with labour laws like that they could be next!!

Unfortunately, what you've described Herb is the reality of the lifestyle of the long haul expat pilot in the 21st century. The CX guys (at least the ones in the left hand seat; and expecially those on the 'A' scale) are extremely well paid - some would justifiably say overpaid - and I am given to understand that the amount of work is not excessive (so much so that many run businesses on the side).

IFALPA at the end of the day has no legal or other powers over any airline; and if individuals wish to exercise their human rights to work wherever they choose then so be it.

I'm sure that - as with all stories - there are two sides to this one. You claim that you along with 51 others were 'randomly' selected and 'summarily' dismissed. What is management's version of events? Having invested a huge amount of money in the training of you and your colleagues, I very much doubt that they simply woke up one morning and said "right, let's fire 52 guys simply because we can!"

If you think that life at CX is bad, perhaps you should try a stint at SQ! :D :rolleyes: :eek:

Condolences Herb, nobody likes to see their hard-earned position slide down the toilet as many of us have had happen to us...there must be some internal rational as to how the "49ers" were chosen, fair or not I think we all suspect it was a just a plain ole screwin'....but if you're looking to dissuade applicants from aplying at cx...it probably won't happen on the basis of being labled a scab by IFALPA.....I personally wouldn't apply just because of what happened to you..that in itself is enough to scare me off...and i'm sure, many others....many-many posts have not been answered as to the status of current cx pilots accepting command training...these folks should also refuse training...if they want applicants to respect their request to not seek employ at cx...hope your problem gets resolved asap, and all of you are back to work.....but some of the problems rostering etc, are experienced by many, if not most expat type operations...unfortunately cx appears to have lowered itself to the prevailing standard, as opposed to setting the standard, as it has in past years....best wishes and good luck.....

Herb,
It is always very sad to hear of people being thrown out of work, we can all equate to what it may feel like and the damage it can cause to families and relationships, but if you were as you say connected with the union side you must have known that the law allowed your employer to act like Genghis Khan, if indeed you have been sinned against in this manner, why then have your 1449 pilot compatriate's not done something like a mass walkout or day of in-action to help with your cause, could it be that your ability in negotiations were not as skilled with your company as you all thought, and that your lack of ability has led to the ultimate sanction left open to the company, after all, highly trained pilots and crew are not available at the drop of a hat, perhaps you were asking for the impossible!

Terrible story. Good luck to you all Herb.

Nice to see the guvnor as sympathetic as always :mad: Just what people want to hear when they've been sacked. Good of you to leap in so quickly with those considerate words as well Guv....

Busta.

Just everybody be warned the Guvnor has stuck his ugly opinions in here to get people riled up. This person is some sort of failed airline manager who has pronounced anti-pilot opinions and voices them (look at the postings total) here at every opportunity. Totally ignore all Guvnor postings! Quite why these non-pilots want to spend so much time in a Pilots forum and express so many opinions is beyond me. It obviously shows a very sad life.

To the CX pilots- we watch and hope! Good luck to you!

Guv's just practicin' to get ready to mistreat his pilots....if his planes ever leave mojave...under their own power that is

100% AOA Herb.
They don't call it big wednesday for nuthin

I say, Herb old chap. Any chance of telling us who the International Federation of ALLIED Pilots Association is. Never heard of the Buggers before. Did you say that you work for the Union? :confused: :confused:

Gov'...You are full of ****!!! Why dont you show some sympathy for a change, insted of winding EVERYONE up ALL THE TIME??? You are a sad, sad little man with nothing better to do. :mad: Even if these guys did deserve to be terminated (which I dont think they did), that was no way to go about it! A contract works BOTH WAYS with regards to notice!
To the CX guys...Hope everything works out in the end!
Eff Oh.

Eff Oh - since you obviously have the management side of the story (or otherwise I assume you wouldn't have gone out on a limb here by saying that management effectively breached their contracts), would you mind posting it here? You see, I don't know that side of it ... which is why I am keen to find out what it is. :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

You've also obviously had many years of expat experience ... where, exactly? :D :eek: :D

The whole CX situation seems rather unusual - to say the least - and we're only getting half of the picture. My original post on this subject simply pointed out that before we get a case of foot-in-mouth it would be nice to get the whole picture. If the 49/52 people were indeed maltreated then I would be the first to support them. But given CX's current shortage of crews coupled with the huge amounts of money it takes to recruit, select and train top notch pilots, I really can't see why David Turnbull and his team would be willing to throw away millions of US dollars without very good cause indeed.

The thing with the GuvNor is that he logs on to read all your replies to his inflammatory posts. ust ignore, make no reference to his posts, then he will go away. Remember what your Mum told you, ignore it and it will go away....

I tried to start a thread "Whats happening at CX", but it dissolved into a "slangin' match". What I would like to hear is some FACTS about what is happening. On the FH forum, CX pilots are told, "dont post here, use our internal BB". I'm sure that all of us ppruners would like some insight as to what is going on, at the moment it looks like "The dispute that never was", and for those thinking of joining CX (and please I am NOT one of them), but for those that are, the total lack of INFORMATION, as apart from "dont come here, IFALPA bans, you will be a s**B" type of stuff must really be confusing.Everyday we see CX aircraft, on the ground and in the air, all apparently "ops normal", so could someone from the AOA PLEASE fill us all in on just what the hell IS going on? Thanks

Thanks for posting Herb, you have my support and best wishes. Being ex-CX, we have friends who were there from when it was an excellent company to work for (a few years ago now!) as well as friends who are more recent joiners.

Those of you who doubt the power of a black list might like to refer to some of those who scabbed for Eastern in the USA. It plagues their careers to this day.

Guvnor, when you are quite done blustering (unlikely) you might like to get a life. :rolleyes:

Good luck Herb and your 49ers. Let us know what happens. How many have signed?

[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: Pilot Barbie ]

Why IS it, that we have more whinging and moaning from the CX guys, more than any other airline? Could it be that their mis-guided "action" has gone terribly wrong and now they look for sympathy from others?
Look in the mirror, CX guys, the enemy you see, is YOU.

411A, You're all mouth and trousers until it is your turn to answer a question. Oh, have you forgotten? or are you just a jealous, out of work, spiteful old mam who sits at home in USA behind the protection of Danny's team. Come on tell us who you work for if you've got a job and then we can talk about your attempts to run an airline.

BusyB--
I believe I told you before, but in case you have forgotten, a new airline with Lockheed TriStar aircraft that will operate in your neck of the woods (SE Asia), all charter flights. Aircraft have now been acquired, heavy maintenance will begin next month and crews will be recruited shortly. As for me, Chief Operating Officer.

Chief Operating Officer, instead of wasting your time and everyone else's with your usual boring drivel, why don't you spend a bit of your time getting an education? Try www.feer.com. There is an excellent, balanced article on the woes of Cathay Pacific. Some of that style might even rub off on you, although I very much doubt it.

actually, we (pilots) shall all be grateful for such an unbiased, objective press article. After all the comments we suffer from all sides.
Thanks for posting the link! :D

HotDog---
Have read the newsitem before, and it would appear that the CX pilots simply are unable to accept the fact that EVERY airline in Asia is in the middle of a cost-cutting exercise. Cathay is no different. The gravy train is no more. CX pilots will just have to accept these facts or will always be bitter and frustrated. No amount of posturing by the AOA will change these circumstances.

OH! and BTW, one of the 49'ers, and his wife, are personal friends of mine who learned of his dismissal while on vacation with the 3 kids!

:mad:

A Tristar operation in 2001. That ought to be hugely profitable. NOT!

I was parked next to a CX A340 the other day at Anchorage. The CX plane was flying to Toronto which I believe is a 6 hours flight. I read about all the whinging and bitching about CX being so short of pilots here on Pprune. If it is true, why did they roster 1 capt. and 2 Senior F/O's (3 full stripes on the shoulder) on a 6 hour flight? :confused:

Are you sure it was going to YYZ, and not on the way back to HKG?

If in fact it was going to YYZ with 3 crew, then one of them was obviously deadheading. There are often freighter guys paxing on that sector.

If however there were 3 crew activley involved in the operation, then the a/c was on the way back to HKG.

Whilst I have every sympathy with a group of pilots being treated in this manner,it does seem to me that none of you have taken on board the fact that you are all expats working for a foreign airline in a foreign country and in the same way as other Airlines such as SIA,Royal Brunei,Qatar,Saudia,Gulf Air,Emirates,Kuwait,Oman and now Cathay!!,these are all based in Authoritarian countries where you basically put up and shut up or leave. I cannot imagine any pilots in these companies mentioned thinking that they could get away with the action you guys have been taking these last few months.
From Cathay's point of view sacking 49\52 has worked wonders as Tony Tyler claims all chartered aircraft are being returned and nobody wants to NO 53 so I guess that no one is calling in sick now unless they are in the operating theatre!!
Welcome to the unpleasant world, and it gives me no satisfaction insaying this.

There comes a time when you either have to sh!t or get off the pot.
What must be understood is that there IS life after CX.

>>From Cathay's point of view sacking 49\52 has worked wonders as Tony Tyler claims all chartered aircraft are being returned and nobody wants to NO 53 so I guess that no one is calling in sick now unless they are in the operating theatre!!<<

Yep, it looks like it's all over but the shouting...

The time for direct pilot input has long gone it seems. As one of my friends there says, "the union has already been busted". Looks like the marches in uniform and tardy PR effort to portray the sacked as prominent local citizens involved in charitable works has has little effect.

I would love to be wrong on this one.

The opinions expressed above are extraodinary. Even as I write this the debacle that has become CX is rapidly worsening. Most flights are cancelled or are massively delayed. While I appreciate that you may have a certain closed-minded view, have any of you even read the Hong Kong press (which is biased towards CX) or the HKAOA press releases (which are biased towards the AOA)? Neither of these sources is so blase as some of the responses above; both report the numbers of delayed and cancelled flights which clearly show this industrial action is building.

You express certainty that is at such odds with the actual numbers of delayed and cancelled flights, and the empty seats of the ones still flying. Anyone believing you would think that CX was still flying a normal schedule, that there has been no industrial action whatsoever. If you know something pertinent then by all means say so; but if you don't know anything at all, and have made no efforts to find out, then making it up is merely going to make you look foolish.

BTW Airbubba, your comment "...tardy PR effort to portray the sacked as prominent local citizens involved in charitable works ..." belittles these men. They have truly spent much time and effort in this work; some of the children they have helped have been very special cases and something that most of us would find difficult to respond to without an inner sense of revulsion. (I tell it like it is, I don't intend any disrespect to any parent out there who is in this position). The amount donated, all by CX pilots, flight engineers and simulator instructors, is incredible. The honour recently awarded to the founder of this outstanding charity is pretty rare, and most deserved. I hope you amend your posting, it is undeserved criticism and repugnant.

[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Chris ]

I've just read the Far East Economic Review article, and it makes a great deal of sense to me.

If you're running a company with high overheads and your competitors are lean and mean, one of two things have to happen. If you continue as you are, you'll go bust; and if you want to stay in business, you need to trim costs.

CX's pay scales (especially the A scale) were notorious for being the best in the business - in order to attract crews in the days when the expat lifestyle wasn't as normal as it is today. It was part of the Swire Group culture which has now all but disappeared post 1997.

According to the article, the crux of the problem seems to be the issue that has really crippled the industry - that of seniority. The union's position is that any contract crews have to join the seniority list at the bottom - regardless of their experience; and as it rightly says, this results in a lose:lose situation for both the company and the union with no end in sight.

Most people don't realise how low operating margins of airlines are.

My views on the insane pay demands by the likes of pilots working for LH, DL, UA, AA etc are well known - and whilst it is true that employment costs are only the second or third highest component of an airline's costs, that 2% gross margin can be wiped out very, very quickly with any minor change whether it's increased overheads in the form of pay or decreased revenues in the form of a reduction in the number of business passengers paying high yielding full fares.

On the other hand, the poor rostering and lack of crews has taken its toll on CX's pilots. But that's largely due to the unions demanding that the seniority system be retained - if that was scrapped, then putting in place the extra crews and producing workable rosters would be very straightforward.

As an outsider, I'd suggest the following solution:

1) Scrap the existing seniority system in favour of one where there's incremental pay increases based on time worked at the company.

2) Recruit additional pilots and slot them in based on their experience and expertise.

3) Limit reserve time to no more than one in four; with the reserve time being rostered a minimum of three months in advance - and increase reserve pay rates to 1:3 or 1:2.

It seems clear to me that both sides are currently at fault. The union for its usual Luddite attitude to change - especially regarding the seniority system; and management for treating their people poorly over the rostering/reserve issue.

As for the 49/52 - we still haven't heard both sides of that story. Were they the most militant people; those blocking possible progress and/or compromise? Or were they genuinely chosen at random? If so, why?

I suspect that this particular show is going to run and run... :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

Chris is right.Anyone who believes the confrontation is over is out of touch.

CX stands on the verge of becoming either the best place to work in the aviation business or a tombstone to human folly.

Indeed it is now at what might loosely be called the "Club Buggery" stage (after that well known Australian TV program).

The issues have become clouded by the emotion and lack of trust. It is fast getting to the stage where both sides would rather watch the place burn down than call the fire department.

Like an acrimonious divorce, it may well be too late but there are too many livelihoods at stake to give up without a renewed effort to re-open the channels of communication.

What is needed is two lists of 5 things each party wants.

Get a red pen and cross out the four things on each list that can wait till next week.

We then have one thing each that we want. If that bridge can't be crossed then the company deserves to go down the shanks.

Once we have one thing each, then the list is down to four. The degree of difficulty has been reduced by 20 percent.

As long as one side continues to be portrayed as a bunch of overpaid and pampered gweilos and the other side a bunch of upperclass pompous twits then all deserve to persh on the pyre of stupidity. (With respect to Phillip Chen and the great bunch of local pilots, the first group of whom are ironically, now just coming up for command training).

There is goodwill. It's the trust that's missing.

Agree that the FEER article is the most balanced report I have read on this issue.

My question to those in the know is:
How does the IFALPA ban on recruiting mere SO's help the AOAs position?

A new SO is not going to help management at all.... training alone will 3-4 months.

AOA will be successful (and surely wants CX to be successful) Surely the SOs you get in the door now are the crews you need, post this action, to get the airline on its feet again. (FEER states several times that the AOA answer is more pilots.)

Hyperthetically, if management agreed tomorrow to AOAs demands..... could you realistically employ the new standards without these crew in the pipeline?

Please dont slam my arguments outright. I simply want to know how the IFALPA ban meant to help?

Preventing DE Capts and FOs I understand but the applicability of SOs....not so sure?

Having seen the reaction of the CAD to the L1011s once serviced by HAECO on their first or second flights into HKG, (a/c grounded until maintenance carried out to CAD satisfaction) I hope that 411a's heavy maintenance is just that. There is no economical way that a Tristar can compete in Asia against the 777/330 combinations of CX and the like. Not just due to maintenance and gas prices, but the perception of the travelling public about old aircraft. One of the reasons that CX and SQ are so popular amongst Asias pax are the new fleets used by both. You ain't going to get rich ferrying domestic helpers around 411a.....the rest of the asian travelling public are a little more discerning than you are used to I suggest....... :p

StopStart:
The perception of the public is that:
1. They wouldn't know the airframe difference, only, once inside, whether it's single aisle or twin aisle, whether there is enough room in the overhead and under the seat to stow all the carry on baggage; whether the seat is comfortable and how much legroom and elbow room prevails.
2. The cost of the ticket.
3. Day, date and time of departure/arrival.
4. Will the flight be on time?
5. Will checked baggage arrive simultaneously? :cool:

My deepest sympathies HERB,facing a similar kind of managent here although only one of my colleges has been fired I know what you are saying.The pilot union has been banned and our working agreement throwen in the dust bin,the MD has no idea of what an airline is all about and who are the people that make it happen every day.The flight duty times dont exhist any more and the part that hurts the most is it is our own people who turn aginst us when given managment posts.Good luck to you and remember,it is by gods will we come into this world and he will provide.

100 % AOA...PLAY GOLF!

...and as for GUV and 411A, FOXTROT OSCAR!!!! :cool:

Truth hurts, eh, busdriver25? :D :eek: :D

(Actually, I thought I'd been rather impartial on this one... ah well, can't please everyone!) :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

Guvnor,

P155 OFF

jtr:

I was parked next to the A340 and had to walk pass it to get to my own plane. The sign displayed at the gate showed YYZ as the destination and I saw the 3 pilots and the F/A's boarded the plane at the same time. Do you guys wear your uniform when you deadhead? If you are deadheading, wouldn't you board the plane at the same time as the regular pax?

We wear our uniforms when deadheading as we are on the Gen dec. We also board with the operating crew and we usually help out with the paperwork or whatever needs to be done. After all, the pilots are all on the same team. :D