>>BTW Airbubba, your comment "...tardy PR effort to portray the sacked as prominent local citizens involved in charitable works ..." belittles these men<<

I think my comment accurately belittles the lackluster PR effort, not the men (you do hire women, don't you?). Perhaps you feel the sacking of your colleagues deserves a hiring ban for others while continuing to train and accept upgrades yourselves.

I'll certainly honor the hiring band. I could never pass the tests or afford the cut in pay. However, I agree with others here that if you're not willing to do more yourselves for your fallen comrades, your threats of name calling to outsiders will sound hollow indeed.

Anyway, please prove me wrong and take the bull by the horns!

[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: Airbubba ]

Guvnor,

2449 posts........get a life. !! :D

If cost cutting is truly a major concern at cx, it would seem that cutting out the fat at the middle and upper management level would be a far better strategy than reducing the number of pilots. If you go back and read the initial dispute posting, you will recall that the rostering agreement is the one thing that the AOA has been trying to negotiate unsuccessfully for years. Flights are being cancelled because there is not enough crew. Sick out, or just plain fatigue? Crew is being called to operate "as a favour", without even a day off between ULH. Stress is a proven major factor in all illness.

Wet leasing aircraft is hugely expensive. Perhaps it would make sense to go back to the negotiating table before expenses mount further.

Upper management salaries are reported to be in the neighborhood of $7 million HK dollars. Who's on the gravy train??????

For those who want, visit the the AOA website. Lots of good information.

411A - won't you miss the view of the fountain in SE Aisa?

Govner. First of all let me apologise for my late reply, but some of us have to work, I am sure you too will work for/ run an airline one day, and understand! NOT!!!!
Now for the reply to my post....
No I dont have CX management's side on this....Apparently I went, "Out on a limb", (as you put it) to say that CX management were in breech of contract. Oh you are refering to my line of "a contract works both ways"? Well it does unless you are guilty of gross misconduct then a notice period, or renumeration for that, must be given. If CX had 52 guys working for them who were guilty of gross misconduct, then they need to look at their training and standards departments! They wre obviously not running a very safe operation!.......... This I find hard to believe. Therefore it would suggest that the dismissals are unfair. Now I am no more a lawyer thanThe Govneris an airline boss, but this would seem to be the case! :rolleyes:
As for my Ex pat experiance.....
I have none, but I fail to see what difference that makes?? As you suggesting that if I was an ex pat that I would expectto be treated like this??? :rolleyes: I dont think so some how! So please enlighten me with that one!
Anyway Gov...I thought you would be too busy masterminding your empire, than to worry about 52 fellow pilots in the Far East?? You really shoud have told people that your airline was a Flight Sim 2000 "Fantasy" airline! I think a few got confused and thought it was for real!
:rolleyes:
Eff Oh.
PS Sorry for changing the subject on this one. I will now not reply to any personally aimed posts on this topic. :cool:

Everyone here is a little bit right...but that's not going to solve the problem. When some are describing the 49'ers as the lunatics now running the asylum and the management as recalcitrant.

Everyone has to step back and let in someone from the outside to mediate bnefore we end up with a very large row of body bags and more rich divorce lawyers.

I repeat in this forum that there is goodwill...everyone wants to make CX the best airline in the world to work for.

It's not about the money..it's about everyone getting a life.

Let's sit down and talk.

Hi Guv.

Totally of subject; through this topic I've noticed you have 2471 posts since Jul 99. That would be 26 month up to date. That would make 95 posts per month on average. In 20 business days per month that would be 5 posts per day on average, meaning: 1 post every 1.5h1 post every 1.5h.
You are what? An Airline Chief???
Must be a pretty relaxing, not to say boring job.

P.S. Before you ask the figures were rounded mathematically, indeed we are looking at 4.75 posts per day.

CX crew remember, "It's not size of the dog on a fight, but size of the fight within the dog!" never give up.

Even at 5 minutes a post, that still leaves 23 hours 35 minutes per day to do other things! :D :D :D

I'll only start to get worried about PPRuNeholism when my daily average hits say 25... :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

Hey Guvnor. 5 minutes to post?

Not spending much time reading the posts made by others then, are you.
Which just goes to confirm what we all suspected anyhow.
That you never bleedin' think before opening your big gob!

I have to say CX has acted appallingly in this case; it really is not acceptable, if the company is to attract the very best pilots, to treat ANY employee in this way. I remember a few years back, while Peter Sutch was chairman, they published in their annual report a list of commitments, including making CX one of the best places to work, etc. etc; what has become of this? Surely they still realise that staff input is required to main the airline's standards. CX has the potential to be one of the best, if not the best airlines in the world and also one of the most successful. The ball is now firmly in the airline's court and I sincerely hope the union makes it clear to them that this will not and cannot stand.

Is there any arbitration system in HK? Can't the HKAOA start the ball rolling by offering a concession, such a 5-10 year no-strike clause, in exchange for the reinstatement of the crews and a decent roster system (for example)?

Finally, what are the nationalities of those involved? Presumably, there are nationals of CX destination countries - New Zealanders, Aussies, Canadians, British etc; would it be worth considering some kind of legal or even government action in the "home countries"; certainly, if an Irish pilot were treated in this way, I would expect the Irish government to bring the matter to the attention of the Chinese embassy; if Ireland were an online destination, I'd expect some threat to withdraw Cathay's route authority if this did not work. A little drastic perhaps, but something worth considering down the line . . .

Maxalt - I speed read. It took me all of 1.5 seconds to read your !!!!!e, sorry, post!

Anyway, isn't this thread supposed to be about CX??

On that subject, I hear that they are leasing in 23 - count them, 23 - aircraft from mainly Chinese airlines in case Wednesday's vote is for an all out strike. Aircraft include:

China Eastern A300
China Nothern MD90, A300
Air China 772, 744
China Northwest A300
China Southern 772
China Southwest 757, A343

[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

Hey Guv.

you have just underlined Maxalts piont!! Living life on 1.5 sec's!!
Congrats mate.

These airlines, that these aircraft will be leased from, have among the lowest safety ratings of all airlines. These airplanes will come with these unsafe pilots too. By the way, there were many compaints about the pilots smoking in the cockpit before pushback, life jackets rivetted to the bottom of the seats, and somebody drinking alcohol in the cockpit. Why would any passenger who cares about his life fly on these chartered aircraft? Have a nice flight. :)

Don't forget CX cabincrew positioning on these aircraft who were called to the flightdeck to translate ATC instructions!!!

It seems to me - and I don't know if you agree with this, Busdriver25et al but this really serves to reinforce the point that it's no longer the gweilos that are in charge at CX but rather the mandarins in Beijing. From a strategic viewpoint, I think this must be remembered by the AOA.

Either that, or the Chinese economy is in the absolute pits so that there are loads of aircraft just standing around! :D :D :D

Exactly. Hong Kong is now part of the Mainland. Indirectly, Beijing is pulling the strings at CX. Sooner or later CX will be indistinguishable from the rest of the Mainland carriers; and there will be no shortage of ready, willing and able Chinese Air Force pilots to fly for food.

Curiously, no expats are queued up at Guangzhou-Baiyun to fly China Southern's 777s.

It's not that Beijing is running the show now, Cathay Pacific will only go for the cheapest option. Chinese airplanes can be wet leased the cheapest, so that's where we get them. Airplanes can be painted cheaper in China, so that's where they get painted, but that's different story. :cool:

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]

I think you'll find that The Guvnor is in CX management, if you look a little harder.

I would have thought that if you want to lure a top pilot to move to the third world, and to the most expensive city in the world, you would need to pay him more than anyone else.

Wake up folks...no cx management here...just normal folks who have "been there...done that" ALL THE BEST IN THE HARBOUR..... welcome to the hard reality of the expat contract pilot....gone are the days of the "Delta airlines" contract pilots...hello to to the "new order"..a reality those of us in the rest of the world have accepted...sad but true..."progress"

Ironbutt, Guv, and 411A are all suspected management. Don't trust these people. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Since all the CX people are on their own forum, I presume these are ALL management people talking to eachother.

Nah, I suspect that the only CX management here is busdriver25 who's desperately trying to appear as hardline union as possible (but overdoing it somewhat) ... I reckon his game plan is that if they make it appear that the AOA has been taken over by militants that would attract in crews who would be happy to 'union bust' having had bad experiences with them in the 80s and 90s.

Just my 2c!! (as a non-CX manager)

Hi Guv.

As we are accusing ourselves here on being management pilots, I was wondering if you, or bus25, ironbutt or 411A would care to elaborate on exactly how these suspicions have come about; and why that would be a problem in the first place? As it seems, CX and the union are, at the moment unable to find some common grounds for a decent discussion as to how to rid the problem. Why not use this forum of an initial, anonymous approach for a dialogue?
Although I have nothing to do with CX, have not even once flown with them, I hate to see such a great airline being FedEx'd to hell.
Just a thought.
Cheers
:confused:

Looks like this could be the reason why Chinese airlines seem to have rather a lot of aircraft hanging around...

From atwonline.com:

CAAC has reported that China's airline industry suffered a loss of 2 billion yuan
($241.36 million) in the first half of this year. CAAC stated that among China's more than 30 domestic airlines, only Shandong Airlines, Hainan Airlines and Shanghai Airlines were profitable. Industry RPKs were up 9.6% and cargo up 8.6% during the period.

BTW, my last posting was intended to be tongue in cheek! :D :D :D

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...001235556a.jpg

Cathay Pacific Airways pilotsmarch to a meeting in Hong Kong August 22, 2001. Cathay Pacific Airways' pilots are likely to vote overwhelmingly for tougher job action as their dispute with management drags on, a pilots' union spokesman said. In the last week, the airline has been forced to cancel a number of flights because a growing number of pilots were calling in sick. REUTERS/Kin Cheung

>>Cathay Pacific Airways' pilots are likely to vote overwhelmingly for tougher job action as their dispute with management drags on<<

FYI

THEY DID!

Far from it.

There is much intellectual cpaital available to debate the issues with the public.

What is actually needed is some outside help. All the apray is on the walls.

Both sides need two folk with cultural and intellectual sensitivity to the isues to broker a peace...one item at a time.

I have carefully studied all the postings here and I strongly suspect that one or two contributors are not fellow management! Be careful and don't trust anyone, folks!

Don't trust anyone...but trust the goodwill.

Most folk who have lived CX for 10 years plus..on both sides have goodwill.

What they don't have is the ability to talk to each other.

What I am proposing is that two souls with intellectual affinity to the issues and a love for the company be brought in to solve...ONE PROBLEM AT A TIME.

An ex CS from the the UK does not have the investment in CX to donate body parts.

Body parts is what is required.

Donors to the front of the queu please...

if it's 2% or 3% ...surely everyone will contribute as long as people can get their lives back. Try the HKAOA rostering system...it's one of the few things that works at the moment.

They weren't to interested in '93 when Mr Eeddington Phd Cx An Ba etc and "Paddy" O'Gilvie set the ball rolling for new roster ptactices. Why change the habits of a life time! Hope that eventually sense will prevail for everyone in the company! :confused: :confused:

Nice pics but there ain't no local faces.

Quite right. There's only about 30 faces. We have 1500 pilots. Hey, I'm not in the picture either. I guess I must not be supporting the AOA--Think again. 100%AOA!! :cool:

I am not saying your local pilots are not supporting AOA. What I am saying is you need local faces to convince the general public that it is not a fight dominated by the high paid gweilos. :rolleyes:

[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: smith ]

smith--
These guys stepped on their di@ks a long time ago by EXcluding locals in the first place. Of course, many of the present guys were not there then, but the culture certainly remained.
Too bad they could not see the light sooner.

It may be just coincidence - but why in that pic are there very, very few Captains? :confused: :eek: :confused:

Guv,
Perhaps they were in front, leading the parade.

More likely in the bar....so that the junior guys can make fools of themselves.

Guv,

Regarding your comment about very few captain in the picture. It is probably because we are low on pilots, especially captains, and most of them are out flying. Also F.O.'s tend to hang out in one group and captains in another. This is just one random picture. There are, however, many senior captain that used to be anti-union that fully support the union now because of management's poor leadership. Thanks for everybody's support through these though times. The aviation world is very small and it is nice that pilots can help one another out during tough and unfair times. Thanks to you all. :)

[ 26 August 2001: Message edited by: busdriver25 ]

Let's remember that the motion of support for the AOA carried at over 92%. That figure includes an awful lot of captains, except for the management ones, of course.

411A, why don't you concentrate on your own start-up, or at staring at the fountain from Indian Wells?

Cathay management are now conducting intimmidation interviews for those pilots that call in sick. Apparently if you don't give them adequate notice ie. greater than 12 hours, you are not allowed to call in sick. What are these idiots doing? So much for flight safety. :cool:

>>What are these idiots doing? So much for flight safety.<<

Of course, a lot of folks call in sick when they are not sick, even brag about it, no wonder companies are not always inclined to take a pilot's word on this matter.

Crying flight safety during an industrial action is kinda like when we cry poverty during pay negotiations. Comes with the territory I suppose...