To scab or not to scab in Cathay, that's the question !
 

To scab or not to scab in Cathay that's the question !

When the 'veil' of who's who, is lifted by Cathay Management at 00:01 hours local time in Hong Kong on the 1st of August the 'future shock' will be in the office and its bearers of the Cathay pilot's union (Association). The least shocked will be the world's contract pilots and certainly Cathay Management who know the way pilots think.

The rhetoric that's been driven hard by the Cathay 'resistance' pilots on pprune is exactly the same sort of blind madness that the lads on 'Go Around' the AFAP's daily rag in 89 used to send to all the troops "keep them running over the cliffs come hell what may". The blinded passion being shown by the Cathay pilot group is exactly the same perilous path that we all took in 89, the head in the sand all the way mentality and TODAYsadly to say "its all over as there is now, no dispute" (Bob Hawke 25th Aug 89 - The Day After!) for the Cathay pilots dispute.

The Cathay blokes have so terribly misread history of modern company resolve together with City Hall (News Ltd's Wapping UK journo strike of the mid 80's or Reagan's PATCO stitch-up even Continental as well as 89 just to start with) and the CX-ppruners are so to the opposite of the scale of their own fellow Cathay colleagues silent majority who I've being seeing throughout this dispute. Just about all the CX-Aussies will sign the letters to the company, if not already done so then cretainly within the next 24 hours, they all know that the company has won and they know they are still one of the few and unrealistically best paid pilots left in the world airline industry. They know only too well that contract pilots are the way of the future and that contract captains earn less than the Cathay first officers don't even talk about accommodation, schooling, free medical, best pubs to stay in on lay-overs etc etc etc as the contract pilots would have to get out a dictionary to read up on those meanings.

The Cathay pilot's association have to be honest to themselves and accept the fact that their 54 colleagues are finished and that no Asian company or manager will be prepared to lose face for these sacrificial lambs especially in the eyes of their "own" Hong Kong business folk and in front of ALL the Cathay staff. The press are doing such a great job at reminding the public as to the facts that HK citizens are contemptuous to the CX pilots but more worrisome, so are ALL the Cathay staff (ask the UK staff) there's no way in the world that the 54 boys are coming home guys, its finished, tell them to get out those flight magazines guys, sorry but join the club.

The Cathay pilot, is now in a serious dilemma, as already, he is considered a "Claytons scab" amongst all of us, as they are flying whilst their 54 sacked buddies commence the realization that they are back into the real world of aviation, bloody hard contract work for very little pay and zilch conditions with a 3 months contract to live on (contract by notice is how we are all employed, upset anyone and you're out i.e. "shut up and fly, mister") for the REST of their flying careers.

The Cathay resistance pilot group talk all along about principles and loyalty, if they really believed their cheap jingoism then these Cathay pilots should not be flying whilst their colleagues have fallen but more to the point as of the 1st of August there WILL BE NO DISPUTE (thanks Hawkie) so will the Cathay pilots continue to fly?

Sure will ("gangway gentlemen, please, I'm in a hurry" say the current 89er's in CX).

And the company knows that only too well, because pilots are the easiest group of workers to split, look up in the sky and you'll see many thousands of contract pilots from all over the world highly experienced and qualified who are all perched on the H.K telegraph poles with shoulders crouched over, beaks dripping, for the 89 syndrome to take its final act in Hong Kong, they are all awaiting the first Friday of August's Flight Magazine back page where Cathay are looking for direct entry 330 340 777 747 Captains and F/O's and yes, please be assured there are thousands who will swoop down and walk in the door to fly for Cathay and immediately mind you. And all these folk will be only too acceptable to the Cathay Flight Ops department and the HK CAA regarding experience and licensing and ease for the purposes of "fast tracking".

The Cathay pilots must surely be aware of the numerous after dinner-evening cigars and 'complimentary' Cathay duty free Remy Martin VSOP that old Dave has had with Rod in BA, Geoff in Qantas, Sir Rupert out of his local HK office and asked "Geoff and Rod what should I do with my pilots, how did you guys "fix" the Aussie pilots?", "what's your recommendation Rupert, how can you help me with your past experiences with "fixing" problem unions and setting up a smear campaign, how would you resolve it?" OR try some "Dear Mr. HK and Mr. Very Honorable Beijing Government's, can you support our shareholders in our glorious airline, if I get rid of all the Cathay pilots and rebuild like the foreign devils did to themselves in the past, can you think about a system to FAST TRACKING FOREIGN LICENCES, H.K RESIDENCE AND WORKING VISAS for new captains and first officers from all over the world please?" Doesn't this all seem rather familiar guys?

The totality of the Chinese people in HK/Mainland and the pilots in their own airlines' have some very different views on the way they see the Cathay "problem" (that being the "foreign" pilots of CX themselves causin 1# embaressment 2# greed by foreigners as compared to holding up their own airline a Chinese owned airline) as compared to how the "foreigners" (Cathay pilots) see it!

The Cathay pilot's dilemma is even greater than ever before and is snowballing day by day, as the same CX-ppruners that berated the ASL pilots over the last 4 years with astounding rhetoric about being low class whores and scabs and these same CX pilots with so called "professionalism" displayed open contempt to the ASL pilots in the Cathay crew room, crew bus, hotels, dead heading etc now find themselves flying over their own 54 fallen angels careers already we're seeing the "justification" of the new commands and current employment acceptance in the last week on pprune, hey guys its us you're talking to. No matter how the Cathay pilots stack it up, they are already busting the very essence of unionism - something about, one for all and all for one or such like. But hey, pilots are pilots. They're just like cabbies and its every person ("whore?") for one's self.

For an analogy of hypocrisy then surely the current crop of Cathay pilots talking about scabs and as to what they themselves are actually doing by currently flying, getting paid, grabbing the commands shortly on offer, certainly sets a pretty good example. Remember boys the word scab is an Americanism from the 18th century Appalachian coal mines…..SCAB - Still Continuing All Benefits - be careful with the rhetoric guys.

Rest assured guys and be very very clear, Cathay is determined to go right through with this and rebuild if necessary just like the two Australian airlines did and the Aussie airlines (and the scabs) never looked back since. Likewise Cathay Management will do the same, for a short-term pain they will fast track and rebuild all within 3 to 6 months its that simple and easy.

More importantly the Cathay pilots need to know that there's a Hoover Dam wall of pilots who are ready to start tomorrow morning in HK and all highly qualified, hopefully the Cathay pilots will not be under the old fifties and sixties illusion that Cathay Management will only employ their current pilots because their the "right sort" and "the chosen people".

The very notion of the "right" sort of pilot is a thing of the past, as they were once the only 'acceptable sort of pilot' that would "fit in" to their Royal Empire Flying Boat Squadron in HK. The Cathay pilots are in for a seriously rude awakening next week and should be prepared to see very good pilots from around the world in all shapes, sizes and colours as direct entry captains and first officers into Cathay Pacific Airways from Central & South America, North Africa, the Med, Gulf, Indians and Pakistani's and the current abundance of experienced Sri Lankan 330/340 pilots. Apart from all the usual suspects i.e New Zealanders, South Africans, Aussies, Zimbabweans, good old USA and Canadians. Don't be fooled guys, 3rd world airline pilots are very very sharp and can match anyone down on procedures,SOPs, by the 'book' and simple flying, you should see where these blokes fly into and with what, year after year after year, without the nice home comforts of flight watch and infrastructure that mother Cathay provides let alone all the dough!! Sure they mightn't have the fancy Eaton accents with cravat and reefer jackets "hey I say old bean" but they sure as hell can help rebuild Cathay overnight and Management know it only too well with the Flight Department's acceptance and being only too happy with the caliber of professionals that all these guys bring into CX let alone with a savings in costs to go with it. Cathay can be like any other world airline full of contract pilots at half the cost of the current offer on the table to the Cathay pilots.

Did I read or hear someone in the Cathay pilot group in pprune the other day say "Cathay have to pay for quality!" - excuse me for a moment whilst 35,000 contract pilots spray their beers in laughter - what utter conceit guys, come on. Take a look at Heathrow, Frankfurt and JFK for example and see the Nigerians, Ghanaians, Arabs, Moroccans, Mexicans, Brazilians, Chinese, Japs, Indons, Indian sub continent, Turks, Greeks etc operating on all sorts of heavy metal they seem to be coping with their own capabilities quite well, thank you very much and don't just think that they're all flying within their own national airlines which they're not. These good folk are in major International airlines such as SIA, Emirates Gulf Air, BA Air France KLM QANTAS and Ansett, these top airlines, as an example, seem to get over this ill conceived colonial attitude quite well and as of the 1st August so will Cathay.

Cathay management have now played a superb masterstroke, by now two timing the Cathay pilots Association, one has to give then ten out of ten. The pens are frantic tonight in Hong Kong I'm sure, the association has badly misread their own pilot body.

But the real question at the end of the day is to scab or not to scab? Well discounting the small 'resistance' rhetoric of the Cathay wharfies and the old adage of "to maintain the rage" the answer is undoubtedly YES. Just ask the wives and families especially an 89'er missus.

Compare us bums flying contract work to our once best of friends who scabbed on us in 89, if you manage to ask them how's their lot, you first would have to wait for a moment whilst they moor their 40 footer next to their parked BMW in 'Pacific Waters' the Gold Coast's best area to live it up (and he's only on a 737 for Christ sake!). Do they care about me flying my rear end of for $7,500 per month in some sleaze hole in the worlds aviation bowels, because I kept my principles, oh hello "NO WAY FORGET IT"…..and for what I can pass on to any Cathay pilot is your loyalty is to your family and your company, as Cathay will continue paying Noddyland salaries and conditions compared to all of us with our tongues pressed against the window and snow falling on our rags looking into the last of the Royal Empire Flying Boat pilots club, watching them rubbing hands against the fire of fat pay cheques AND not forgetting HK accommodation, school fees, great working conditions etc etc.

Being an ex-Ansett operator for 14 years of hell bent 'company loyalty' and end up flying in the Mid East and now in Europe on the 320 and now the 330 I am quite at ease with myself to apply for a direct position in Cathay should I see the ad. Every single 330 757 320 767 737 pilot in my airline and mates airlines here in the UK who are majority non UK and many Aussie and Kiwis will be on the phone to start in HK the next morning. We can all, very easily handle being called a scab even if Cathay pay half the going offer and a bit of "reasonable' accommodation we would be all flying the line in Cathay within 4 to 6 weeks like the contract world of pilots do from airline to airline. With the current pay and conditions of Cathay being offered by the company we would be mad not to come over. I know for a fact that we would be killed in the rush by the 89'ers etc in SIA, Emirates, Gulf Air Saudia blokes and others as we all want to be able to go home once or twice a month, instead of once a year like we have been doing since 89. My loyalty cost me too much 12 years ago, if the Cathay pilots can't see what a good wicket they're on then they've only got themselves to blame when we all come in to replace the rebels.

Don't pile on the venom to me like you have on poor retired 411A and others, as we seem to all be talking the truth to you all and which, Cathay resistance pilots, seem to have forgotten all notion of reality, don't shoot the messengers please guys, we're all actually trying to give you sound advice, I'm sure you might all be surprised to see an 89'er prepared to scab in CX, but I'm sorry to tell you that I'm not the only 89'er that will. Many 89'ers out here in contract-land are all hoping that Dave Turnbull will place his 'ad' in the Flight Mag, Like other ppruners, I'm just trying to forewarn Cathay pilots that you have lost your battle it was simply insanity what you guys were even contemplating of doing in this day and age, especially with a slowing world economy (bad timing guys real bad) and now just go and accept, RIGHT NOW, sign up otherwise you will end up on the pile heap like we have all paid, we can only go up, you guys can only go down.

But you do realise don't you, that as you are all signing up behind the association's back tonight, you are turning into midnight pumpkin scabs yourselves like the way the rest of the world is going, sorry but its that simple, be smart and sign up, if not for your sake then for your families, don't blame us blokes if we come in and fly with you as we will all be scabs in arms. I trust the CX-pilots who heaped it on the ASL blokes will do the right thing and of course NOT sign up, principles gentlemen please, principles.

Sorry to write the simple truth.

Whether or not our friend above speaks the truth, he/she is quite obviously right about one thing: he/she speaks simply. So simply, in fact, that one wonders whether this individual ever went beyond a primary school education.

If this person actually holds an ATPL it occurs to me that someone else must have passed the examinations for him/her. Either that or the licensing authority in question ought to be challenged as to its apparent incompetence.

God save us all if persons the calibre and competence of this one are in reality poling our airliners around the world.

Or is it that I am just becoming too old ... ? :confused:

Scab.. (according to dictionary) is a skin desease.

all scabbed up, I am afraid I must disagree with you. Inside info tells me that 1100 of the 1300 pilots have signed the rejection letter. Granted some of them may be taking the sneaky option offered by the company but after they see such numbers I am sure a few will get the courage to recind the hidden doc given to the company. While I have no doubt that numerous more sackings will result and possibly mass postings of new jobs to contract pilots, your senerio of events comes now to a grinding halt because there are very few C+Trng guys who have not backed the AOA stance....so who are to train your Black Knights ? I know all said the same with the advent of ASL but this little stouch is not in the same league as previous.

On second thoughts I do not beleive such black sentiments are those of a '89er ... least not the ones I knew ... I'll leave it there least I get angry and call you nasty names....@&%$#^^%$*&( !

a_s_u

Interesting post, and nearly on the mark IMHO. Suspect however that the "don't confuse us with facts, our minds are make up" crowd at the HKAOA will look upon it with disdain...until the advertisements appear in Flight International.

All Scabbed Up:
Your point is well made and easily understood. It's a dog eat dog phenomena in this crazy business and it will repeat over and over.

But there are exceptions to the rule and one was the most recent 3 month strike at Comair.
Much to the astonishment of the U.S. airline community, this strike was airtight! No scabs had emerged in this brutal tug of nerves. The airline management was stopped dead in its tracks because it couldn't move a single airplane.

The CX pilot group could have learned something from those Comair (Delta Connection) pilots: Stick together like superglue.

If all the CX pilots had supported their 54 fallen comrades and stayed off the job, the public and stockholder pressure on CX management to bargain in good faith would have been overwhelming.

There are no desperate situations, only desperate people. And scabs.

:(

I think there’s a fair to middlin’ chance that “all_scabbed_up” works for Cathay’s PR or psych department and his ‘letter’, (with the standard of English carefully ‘dumbed-down’ to Management’s idea of a ‘real’ Australian pilot’s level of intelligence), is just another all too accurate shot aimed at the waterline of the CX pilots’ solidarity. (First post for him, I notice.) For his sake, I hope he was paid by the word. (That would have to go close to being the longest post I’ve seen on Pprune.) And he deserves whatever it os they’re paying him, because he’s pressed nearly all the right buttons in his lengthy tome.

I say only ‘nearly all’, because I think he comes a little unstuck with his comment “I know for a fact that we would be killed in the rush by the 89'ers etc in SIA, Emirates, Gulf Air Saudia…” You tried a little too hard with that comment, a_s_u. There’ll be applicants, and plenty of ’em, (and who knows, some might be disaffected 89ers), but most will be from be the same ‘class’ of person who went to Oz in 89, (and who knows, in some cases, maybe the very same people thanks to Ansett’s current travails) – the flotsam and jetsam of Aviation, not people working for a real company like the ones you mentioned.

GlueBall--
You have a good point, except that there is one very big hole in your argument. The Comair guys accepted virtually the same offer from the management....only it was offered the second time 'round. Almost no changes. So, the three months off work cost them dearly. And, in HKG the CX pilots cannot strike without the approval of management. The labor laws in HKG are stacked against them.
Wonder if SFO's are licking their chops at the thought that more senior Captains might bite the dust?

Just thought I would add that not one of the many '89ers' that I have met over the years was ever inarticulate to the degree displayed in that post by a_s_u above. If this was a product of Cathay's PR or psych departments, then it was the most inept imaginable. For this reason alone, I seriously doubt whether that is so.

411
After the strike, the senior Capt annual base pay immediately jumped from $66K to $85K. That's no small change for driving a small bizjet.

But the overall point is that management was unable to attract any scabs to fly a single flight. This tightly knit force of CRJ commuter jet jocks has achieved unprecedented respect and honor in the US aviation community.

411: I was not aware that HK law can force a "free" citizen to go to work. Surely, if all 2000+ CX pilots don't show up for work at the same time, leaving CX jets stranded at airports all over the World, that HK lawmakers would become severly alarmed over such impractical, uneforceable law. Such total pilot solidarity would instead focus investors, shareholders and inconvenienced air travelers' attention unto the bankrupt CX management team. :eek:

1. Regarding Comair. Anything 'Labour' that happens in the US is not translatable to the rest of the world...especially China.
If it was we'd all be on 300K p.a.

2. An Aussie '89er whom I once contracted with for 12 months (and was quite pally with) told me over a beer that if my own company ever struck he'd walk in and take our jobs without a second thought...mates or not. This guy was hurting.
In vino veritas.

A.S.U......mate if you are as good as your gob(don't you EVER shut up?)..you'd be here already....

Charly,
Suggest you continue reading further in your dictionary.
The Concise Oxford offers additional meanings of 'scab':
'Mean low fellow'.
'Person who refuses to join strike or trade union or takes striker's place or breaks rules of his trade or group'.

If the cap fits, wear it !

A.S.U.: I will never fly with anyone with your kind of attitude. :(

Having been out of action for a while - nothing serious I'm sorry to say - my reaction to All_scabbed_up (and nowhere to go?) 's post, was the same as Wiley's - he/she is part of CX's (losing) management team's poor attempt to try to indicate that there are hundreds of pilots waiting at the floodgates. A sign of desperation.

It might well behove All_scabbed_up to recall the FINAL outcome of the 1989 Australian dispute, from the Airlines' perspective. A dispute that STARTED with FOUR Airlines companies, and within 5 years ENDED with ONE - Ansett!! And look at its financial condition since.

Certainly the majority of pilots didn't get to go back to work for their original airline, but those who WANTED work found it, and in general, prospered.
UNLIKE the participating EAST-WEST, IPEC, AUSTRALIAN Airlines (TAA), and ANSETT.

The CX dispute is almost one month down the track, with the pilots not yet having done anything other than work as per their Company's O.M's.
Conversely, CX management has squandered hundreds of millions of dollars of the company's assets. Hundreds of millions that could have been saved through simple negotiation.
It is too simplistic to try to justify this excessive, unnecessary waste of money by stating "this management is focused". It makes a mockery of any past or future attempts to freeze or reduce ANY of CX's workers' salaries in the name of "cost-saving", when it is patently clear that management are able, and willing, to blow hundreds of millions of dollars in several weeks on a project obviously undertaken to try to save their collective "face"!

Shame CX management, shame! (Gough Whitlam, 197..something)

It goes like this , 6 weeks strike = Airline bankrupt !411A you are so "flying club "

All scabbed up! ;only pilots please,...you speak unaldalterated crap,are you chinese,possibly trainee accountant la?

Er - what was his/her point in not scabbing in '89?

All_scabbed_up ......I would be very very surprised if you are not a part of the management.

As I have pointed out here and on other threads, this is a pilot R & N site, not a site for management propaganda.

It is time that pprune membership be edited to remove non pilots....please

Be careful

All Scabbed Up,

I have never met anyone involved in Oz 89 that was not deeply affected by what occurred and carries with them, justifiably in my view, very strong views on Unions/collective bargaining.

Please be aware that the majority of CX pilots do not even read Pprune. The Resistance and others are not indicative of the CX pilot mindset.

You will be aware that there are sufficient numbers of 89ers within CX to ensure that no pilot is unaware of how brittle unity can be within a union. Equally, no one is under the illusion that the world pilot brotherhood will wholly support us. Further, both the company and any pilot who was in CX in 1999 will be aware that when faced with a "sign or be fired option" the pilots will sign. To that end the AOA has spent 2 years rebuilding unity after 1999 and is desperate to avoid a "sign or be fired option".

I do not believe the most recent letter received from CX is a case of "sign or be fired"(famous last words..oops). However, the more letters I receive from the DFO, the more convinced I become that he is trying to manoeuvre the pilots into a such a position and is relying on a group of guys to step out of line; he wants an excuse to fire/termimate a lot of guys. Whether he is trying to settle old scores before he retires or is doing the hatchet work before the "new" regime arrives I don't know.

I remain unconvinced that CX sees what you refer to as Contract Pilots as the future, and I am frankly bewildered by the stance the DFO is taking. He is either playing a blinder, or is playing blind.
Yours.. soon to be fired..
Liam G.

Charly
While consulting the dictionary, check on the spelling of "disease".

Let me begin by proudly stating tha "I am NOT a pilot". Why is that every time someone air a differing opinion, on a sensitive subject, that in this case was easily read and to the point, 90 percent of the responces are to the effect of "are you a pilot", "lets ban non pilots","you must be management" and other more simplistic responces.
I havn´t been following this Cathay strike, so I will abstain from making any comments pro or con, but it really gets on my nerves this arrogance displayed by a handful of contributor to theese columns. If you are outraged by a post why not sit down an formulate an intelligent and well thought through answer, and therby making a mokery of the offending post, I mean you might even get your own view across.
A viewpoint of a humble engineer.
Brgds
Doc

Put simply, Doc, this IS a pilots' forum, and the views of All_scabbed_up are NOT those of the MAJORITY of pilots.
So when someone attempts to represent him/her self as one of our profession, and the characteristics OBVIOUSLY belie the profession, he/she attracts the flamings you have witnessed!

Hear! Hear! Kaptin M...

It's a bit like going on an Anti-Hunting or anti Fur Trade bulletin board and making a posting that boasts about the new Fox Fur coat that you've just made out of animals you've killed yourself.

Flame away, fellow Pilots. :mad:

Oh! And up the workers... I hope you pull it off Cathy Pilots, it seems to me that Cathay always did well when you all had the best job in the aviation world.

Seems like some dumb middle or senior managers trying to make names for themselves in case the revolution comes!

It wasn't broken... So why fix it?

Dear Doctor A300

With respect, dear chap, this website is known as the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. As such, it is perhaps to be expected that responses from some professional pilots are likely to be in the form you seek to criticise.

I do not suggest for one moment that others, including engineers like yourself, are not perfectly entitled to post and express their views. Indeed, the vast majority of PPRuNers would certainly welcome such input.

However, I think you cross a line when you seek to gag comment by those for whom the website was originally created, viz. professional pilots.

Having said that, there are many occasions upon which I am led, as a professional pilot, to wonder as to the 'professionalism' displayed by some fellow PPRuNers. :rolleyes:

By the way, to assert that you are 'proud' to NOT be a pilot, does suggest that those who ARE pilots might have something of which to be ashamed. Is this what you intend to imply? :confused:

To borrow a phrase from one of my colleagues: 'nuff said. :D

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]

Hardly an apt analogy Beaver. I believe the original poster is a pilot, and as such is entitled to his opinion in this forum, as are you.
Doc, though your point may be valid this is a pilot forum. And why would you wish to "proudly state" you non-flight status, do you hold pilots in such low regard?
Eagle, chill on the spelling fetish, who cares? Was the message clear?
And those of you who advocate "flaming" anyone for simply stating their views should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves. This is simply the childish and wrongminded behavior of a few ppruers with nothing to add and a perverse need to anonimously bully. Maybe some of you (and I think we all know who) should start your own site, allowing only those with opinions identical to your own to log on. No intelligent, controversial, divergent, insightful discussion allowed. I don't many other ppruners will be joining you though, sounds boring.
That's my 2 cents, I shall now stow the soapbox (and I'm sure a few you will be willing to tell me where to stow it). Thank you and good night.

What's a "mokery"?

A place where "moks" pray ?

We'll have to agree to disagree then, Brad737.

I'm with the conspiracy theorists, and don't believe that any pilot would actually write the original post.

Believing as I do, I think my analagy is fine. Also, I happen to be one of those rare people who believe in the "greater good".

I would hope that if I had suffered as all_scabbed_up says he/she has in the past, I would be even more determined to act with a sense of honour in similar scenarios in the future. Two wrongs don't make a right and I need to be able to sleep at night.

I confess at not being full bottle on the CX melee, but the superfluous ASU does have one thing right.
There are many (unquantifiable, I agree, but I speak to heaps downline all over the world) ex-89ers who would readily sprint to HKG to take a contract job in CX for about US$10k pm and 10 sequential days off. Make no mistake about this: there are heaps. Enough to satisfy CX management? Dunno. But enough to break the lines of A-scale lemmings!
Tread carefully, lads, can you expect troops to hold firm in their resolve? It doesn't seem likely to me, as work -to -rule doesn't cut it. It's got to be all out or none out. (see Comair/United/Lufthansa).

Isn’t it amazing how all these doom-sayers, (particularly those predicting how many Australian “89-ers” will “flock” to HKG to “scab”, are very, very new to this site?

I think Wiley has a point. Many of these posts are quite obviously not si subtle scare tactics by management.

Good luck to all of the troops in HKG, even those making oodles more money than I am. If CX management get away with this, it won’t take management elsewhere long to try their luck on the rest of us.

I've had to re-rub-up my username (I lost my password - "Doh" ) sorry about that as I'm not too used to writing into pprune my first time ever, I've been an avid follower of this great info tool, contrary to Singapore Airlines management who are beside themselves at the leakage of the working environment of their 'fine' organisation, brother, no wonder no one is going there to work!

Shame that I can't get into my original email username as I'm sure that there would be the odd abusive and threatening email from some of the Cathay wharfies with "the last man standing hold the flag will you" being told to me where in fact the cx-resistance wharfie is actually telling himself that, so as to make him feel better, to justify his own flying suicide, hasn't thought the bit about on how will he tell his missus and kids and the bank in a months time that they will have to live apart forever, doesn't bother me.

I'm going down to China town tonight here in Leicester Square, to get into the swing on how to order some Tsimtsatsui shark soup and seeing if I can order a cold Nathan Road beer I'll even try to saddled up next to some lovely little Suzie. Getting quite exited thinking of going across on the Star ferry to walk up to the lovely empty Victoria peak apartments with beautiful views to have a nice fist full of cash compliments of CX and take the best flat in the house. The boys would remember how well the foreign scabs were treated like in Auz, nothing but the best with security guards thrown in.

Seriously everyone, this is bloody serious, very sad AND ALL UNNECESSARY, that after 48 hours time, there will be many hundreds and I mean many hundreds of people from Cathay pilots to friends and families whose lives are going to be completely turned upside down, it will be the most traumatic experience about to be unleashed to moms and kids, the stress you are about to experience, God, you have no idea let alone the financial crisis that is about to be experienced, I'm trying to scream this out to you all to let you know its not worth it, for God sake guys listen its finished, sign whilst you still have the chance, Cathay which is a bloody fantastic airline will continue to employ you, get your commands pay your bills have the kids looked after, a good retirement plan well set up, in 48 hours time if you don't then you will be just like all my mates and I who have lost the lot spent all our 'super' throw in the divorces and being away from your kids the next thing you know your 5 year old son is shaving and getting married without you being there.

I'm just reconfirming to the Cathay resistance 'mob' that I've been in Gatwick over the last few days talked to my mates in HK and quite a lot are Brits and Irish but the rest are all Aussie A scalers captains and f/o's some are B scalers and guess what THEY HAVE ALL SIGNED UP. I'm simply trying to pass on my advice of my own terrible mistake. Your responsibility is to yourself and to your missus and kids and to your future of your life's expectations. Your close friends will turn right against you within seconds likewise your friends that have scabbed will forget you even quicker.

Its amazing how 90% of the ppruners on this string really believe their own 'BS' that is self perpetuated by themselves thinking that "I'm management" - Get real guys, I'm just a 51 year old bum captain who should have scabbed in 89 like the rest of us should have, but I didn't. Why? Because I was under the same illusion that the so called ANZAC spirit was alive and well and that Aussies just don't do things like that its not in our culture just like you don't 'dob' a bloke in….and look who's laughing, the blokes that went back. They've stayed home (and in their holiday homes along the coast) in the best country in the world, were with their kids everyday, with his missus, didn't bother him being yelled abuse by some poor 'rebel' bastard at Brissie airport, getting back on board a SIA or MAS 747 to go back to some dump around the world and has to stare at 4 walls watching TV that's not in English and waiting for his time to go back home (a year away) all the while getting older and older and is emotionally destroyed, did his scab pal worry about - nahhhh no way, throw beer over him every time you go home he doesn’t care, he's laughing. WE'RE NOT.

Some of the nonsense that the ppruner-cx-wharfies are saying here (as I said earlier) to "maintain the rage" " best of luck boys" "don't give in" (yeah right buddy and lose everything you have and possibly could've had, but blew the lot away this coming Wednesday morning because of the "mate" BS) I say it again and again CX management know that they have sufficient numbers and "NOW HAVE CRITICAL MASS". Who was the idiot in this string that said "how will Cathay survive without any Training and Check captains" boy you don't learn from history boy'o do you? You're now gonna repeat it, MATE, how many T & C's do you honestly think Ansett and Australian had by late Sept 89, even the top and best T&C's being both Henry and Jimbo had left AN/TN, virtually ZERO were left in the two airlines , BUT HEY GUESS WHAT? They rebuilt and bloody quickly ..do you really believe your own BS to believe CX won't have at least a handful of T&C's, be very clear in your mind pal, CX have enough T&C's.

Are there any contract piloted airlines you say? Cathay from this Wednesday will be like SIA Gulf Air Asiana KAL Saudia (it goes on and on) just employ off the street contract pilots direct entry capts and f/os and "shut up and fly" and Cathay will. There's nothing wrong with it it’s the way the world's going. Sorry mate. You'll see for years to come Catahy ads for pilots like you've seen all the others do and CX as they are showing how clever they are, won't bother about training new blokes they'll get experienced pilots over the years from other 777 747 Airbus operators.

If I'm some spook CX management then how many of these lofty chaps would know about FNQ doing a beat up in Alice one day, mind you TAA did its little beauty scouring below cloud beside Table Cape until the F/O blew the whistle to his old man a few nights later over dinner, who as hinself a TAA 727 capt and nearly got the capt sacked….we had Fang on the 727 whilst TAA had "chipboard mother Bar" and "SID-BUSTER" we didn't trust F/O's in Ansett as we were told they couldn't fly from a runway that had more than a 90 degree special procedure like out of HBA or CBR or CNS (Captain only runway take-off's fellas if you don't mind) mind you TAA went to the other extreme and had this thingy thing called monitored approaches, their F/O's had to do all the flying down to minima and the captain lurched ahead and grabbed control if visual. Me Cathay management "I don't think so" oh in case you still think I'm a spook, then CZM (that’s a AN 737 mate) had the best porn-spreads in its RTOW folder (sorry Debbie), satisfied now.

I'm very sorry that I've used such a terrible nom de plume such as scab and talk about it as I feel that both SCAB and the "n" word are some of the most obscene words in the English language and my opening thread was for shock value to get some common sense going amongst all of this as I don't want to see both good young and old men go on to the scrap heap, for example of the 54 mounted stuffed-heads now stuck on the wall of the CX DFO's office how many were within cooeee of a command? Now what are they going to do, simple of course, do another 10 years in the right hand seat, IF they get a job.

Maybe Cathay won't employ me, as I've less than 5 years to go till 55 but hey, a simple phone call from CX Management to Mr. Very Honorable Beijing CAA and bingo retirement will be 60 like the rest of the world "please not to forget my fast tracking I will look after you with more flights to wherever in China, Sir" -- "Xe Xe and no worriesh Mishter David T, we will help you in any way we can for our coomon shareholders".

We're all set to come across and work as hard as can be in CX like we've been doing for the last 10 years in contract land, I'm sure the Cathay flying would be more enjoyable than my morning mad Athenian ATC tower and approach blokes let alone Corfu. mind you they seem a bit better that Southern French ATC nowadays and that's saying something.

To the cx-wharfies who are so smug that they are proud "old timers ppruners" and abuse folk who only have one entry please grow up weren't you knew as well, and the self serving ppruner scholar who seems to think that to write on pprune one has to write to the levels of the John Keating's and Walter Scott's of the world, so that we might end up winning The Booker Prize, buddy please get real we're just "glorified bus drivers" (thanks again Hawkie)…and to the fellow ppruner who says I've got a big "gob" then on this very subject I'm only too happy to mouth off if I can make at least ONE CX'er bloke to see reason if not for his sake then his destiny's and family's.

Bet you boys, that over half the cx-ppruners and wharfies usernames will scab after wednesday....you'll be really surprised when you see some senior Association pilots in with you and all of us.

Now how come the cx-wharfies haven't answered their ASL behaviour, it'll be mighty funny being a fly in a CX cockpit Wednesday night as I'm sure it'll resemble the French Foreign legion that our own President of the AFAP famously said filled up with "bums, misfits and mercernaries".

Front headline in the South Morning China Post:-

"CATHAY REBEL PILOTS, YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK, GOODBYE"

Now let me see if I’ve got this right… All_scabbed_up is keen as mustard to take a job in Cathay, but he’s a bit old for their optimum profile for a “contract” pilot. If that’s the case, All_scabbed_up, surely logically you should be hoping like hell that as many as possible CX drivers don’t sign.

But you’re encouraging them to sign up quickly “so the don’t make the same mistake you made in 89”.

Definitely management.

(Oh, and I’m really impressed with para 2, All_s***’ed_up. A 99 word sentence! Wow!)

Well, enough of this 'pilots pretending to be management', and 'management pretending to be pilots'. No-one believes you are who you say you are, unless you post along anti-establishment, anti-management lines. That's the mentality we are dealing with here.

Well, I am Management, and I say Good Luck to the Cathay Management and all hard working, brave professional people that striking scum call Scabs.

Bourbon - I reckon you're management, pretending to be a pilot who's pretending to be management. And I think you're really for the CX pilots but have made a satirical posting in their support.

But all this will be lost on them - 'cos their heads are buried in the sands of Clearwater Bay...

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Joyce Tick ]

All_scabbed_up_again,

I have followed your posts with interest. I have over 8000 hours flying time, in my early thirties and have been wanting to join the majors for a while.

I cannot get a Direct FO position YET 'cause I dont have Jet time. If CX should strike, that situation may well change.

Gentlemen, please exercise caution, "all_scabbed_up" speaks sense, think carefully and play your cards well. I will not accept responsibility for your actions.

If the job offer becomes available, I shamefully would have to say " I will take it!"

You can never Be, if you havent Been.

All_scabbed_up_again has researched the 1989 Australian dispute quite well (not too hard with all the Aussie pilots around the world) to try to give his "character" an air of authenticity, but fails, however, to hide his native American/Canadian heritage which present themselves in 3 or 4 places throughout his second epic, and for a supposed ex-Ansett pilot of 14 years, has made a glaring fopar when he mentions the "RTOW folder"...that terminology was NEVER used for the Special Information book".

From CX managements point of view, this forced confrontation with their pilots has collapsed like the proverbial house of cards, and cost the gambling management fistfulls of dollars.

all_scabbed_up_again also needs to remind the readers WHY the Airlines in Australia were able to attract so MANY scabs there in 1989.
Because they offered extraordinarily HIGH SALARIES, IMPROVED WORKING CONDITIONS (eg. overtime commencing at 55 hours), an AUSTRALIAN PASSPORT, and a LIFESTYLE in a great country.
Cathay is NOT offering that to their pilots - YET!!

If all_scabbed_up_again's posts are the best ammunition that CX management have (via their "PR" company), then they have yet again demonstrated their total UNACCOUNTABILITY for the hundreds of millions of dollars they have blown in their "war" on the pilots!

I personnaly don't believe that an Australian with the education required to gain employment in the pre 89 Domestic Airlines of Australia could have such poor writing skills as to make a post almost unreadable!

Chuck.

ASU again:

1. What is going to happen in 48 hours? How do you know that? Why is it going to happen?

2. Why would there be A-scale Aussie pilots at Gatwick?

3. Why do you bother to post all these comments here so people can **** all over you?

:eek:

>>...but fails, however, to hide his native American/Canadian heritage which...<<

Don't think I've ever been accused of being a Canadian <g>. There's a big difference in being an American and being a "North" American. Beware imitations...