UK ATC worst in Europe ?
 

Well thanks Mr Sunday Times for your shallow investigation into this subject. You made us all feel it was worth putting in that last shift on another bad day !!!


UK ATC Worst in Europe
Sunday Times - August 25:

Insight: Air traffic control in UK worst in Europe

BRITAIN’S new £620m air traffic control centre has been branded the worst in Europe, causing more than half of all air traffic hold-ups.

An official report by Eurocontrol, which manages European air space, shows the centre is responsible for more delays than all the other 30 national air traffic agencies put together.

It also emerged this weekend that despite the huge investment in technology, passengers are suffering record delays even though the centre, at Swanwick in Hampshire, is handling fewer planes than the old “low tech” system it replaced.

There has been a doubling in the level of delays during this summer’s peak holiday season compared with the same period last year. The failings have also led Eurocontrol to issue a number of warnings to foreign pilots to avoid UK air space unless they have to land in Britain. At the worst times this summer Britons have been three times more likely to be delayed when flying to Mediterranean destinations than German or French travellers. At Gatwick 35% of planes were delayed, with more than 4,000 flights having an average delay of 20 minutes.

The revelations are certain to reignite the row over the centre. John Prescott and Stephen Byers, then transport secretary, pressed ahead with the launch of the system in January and pushed through part-privatisation of the National Air Traffic Services (Nats) despite opposition from backbench Labour MPs.

The poor performance of the centre in its first six months of operation is also a serious setback for Nats, which failed to remove all of the system flaws or ensure there were enough controllers to run it before it opened.

---------------------------------

Insight: Hi-tech shambles of Britain’s airspace

IT HAS been a disaster more than 10 years in the making. Britain’s new air traffic control centre has turned the country’s airspace into the bottleneck of Europe..........

The most damaging indictment is provided by Eurocontrol, the agency that manages airspace capacity. John Byrom, of Eurocontrol, said the UK had accounted for 51% of air traffic delays in Europe since January, compared with less than 15% for the whole of 2001.

In July, the peak holiday month, a 26-page document from Eurocontrol shows that 43% of air traffic delays were caused by Britain..................

The problems are so severe that Eurocontrol has issued bulletins advising pilots to avoid Britain at the worst periods. One on July 25 said: “If routes can be found avoiding UK airspace . . . then rerouting is strongly recommended.”........................

The report is factually correct, is it not?
It would have been better if they had added a para to the effect that the staff are working as hard as they can.........

Don't take the report personally. I'm sure that ALL pilots and most of the general public do appreciate that last shift on a bad day. In my opinion, you guys and gals are amongst the best in the world - if not, the best. However, I don't think the report is having a go at you. It reads to me that the new centre at Swanwick is the subject of this report and not the people who are trying to make it work!
I'm not entirely sure why the new centre has had more than it's share of problems - be it government, management, technical etc, but rest assured, there is no animosity to the workers!!!!
Keep smiling - it can only get better "cheerio!" :) BALOO

Cobblers !

They are underpaid, under-manned and over stretched.

And if nothing else they do speak the International language
of the air which is more than can be said for certain others in
Europe.

Good on you guys - I know you can't always give us that
direct we ask for or that slot extension we need but I'm darn
sure that you do your very best at all times.

It is an absolute fact, the best sound in the world isbeing asked to contact 'London Control'. There is no doubt you can not get cleaned up, high speed and the hell out of some of our 'neighbours' airspace' fast enough.

UK ATC we think your great!!

Seems to be the 21st century aviation industry's general status ;)

re: UK ATC, what a pleasure to get a speedy, efficient and safe service. Keep it up (If they let you:()

Headlines are what make the world interested in reading nonsense. UK ATC provides a most safe and efficient service, and here I mean the men and women behind the voices we love to hear day by day.
When introducing new procedures, new equipment, new technology, it always has been some kind of a challenge for everyone.
I hope that all can remember the introduction of the B757 which was the cause for plenty of delays as pilots have been trained to slow down the aeroplanes early enough thus spoiling the approach sequence for everyone else...
I hope that everyone can remember the introduction of heavy jets which was the cause for plenty of delays as the other pilots had to accept a higher separation...
I hope that everyone can remember the introduction of the RVSM airspace...
The list continous and none of them was called unsafe or "worst" invention.
All has to settle, the manpower calls for adjustment, all will improve.
The amount of air-traffic originating in the UK, heading to or over the UK has increased dramatically and no one has taken this into account.
It is easy to complain, it takes a lot of skill and dedication to perform like we see and hear it everyday.

Beamer ,

"And if nothing else they do speak the International language
of the air which is more than can be said for certain others in
Europe."

What a prattish statement. I wonder how the likes of you would react if ICAO decreed that French or Spanish should be the new international language and be spoken in the UK.
ALL foreign controllers speak English with English speaking pilots. And by the way, many of my European colleagues have a better command of the English language than some British ATC and flightcrew people I know.

The Sunday Times has really gone downhill in the quality of
its reporting over the past ten years. Their journo's seem
to be operating from 'Distort the truth with statistics 101'
nowadays.

It would have been interesting to compare the volume
of problems with the relative volume of traffic going through
UK Airspace compared with that of the rest of Europe.

But I dare say that might not be quite such a good story.

-- Andrew

I read it as the 'centre' is a pile of crap rather than the actual people at the sharp end trying to use the systems. Is that not what the article says?
We all want to have greeat confidence in the place we work, even those for certain Irish and British airlines that attract some, err, scorn, but ...
Apologies if I've managed to misread or mis some nuances.

UK ATC worst in Europe ?
 

I can not judge about the efficiency of the computersystems or understaffing etcetera, but for as far as ´over the radio´ is concerned I think the UK ATC is providing an excellent service.

From one of the sharp ends in TC, thanks for your continuing support, as someone said, it can only get better!

Worst in Europe? Don't really think so, BUT certainly NOT the "best" either.
One need only look just slightly further east for the best...Netherlands.
Germany number two...UK a distant third, about on par with the French, IMHO.:rolleyes:

I hope the boys and girls at "Maastricht Control" get your vote too 411A ;) !

Especially Maastricht, Avman. Best in the business IMHO, Amsterdam also.
Sad to say, even Spain is now sometimes better than the UK.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Now least some think that I am "dumping" on the UK (has been known to happen:rolleyes: ) but it does seem that the new hardware is letting the guys down.
Beancounters running the show?:eek:
IF so, very bad news indeed.

I suggest that NATS needs just what BA needs i.e., the removal of 90% of their management!!!

besides...... LHR is on top of the lost luggage list (together with CDG, if that's a comfort). The international language speaking guys need to clean up their act apparently.......

Capt.KaOs

Thanks for the supportive replies. It gets more difficult each day when you know you are doing your best and what was once world renowned is now the joke of cheap journalism.

We might not get you there the quickest anymore but sure as hell we will do our best to keep you safe.

Best in the business by far. 411A's comments are interesting, what would an Americam know about efficient ATC and RT discipline? seems you have to be into jive talk over there.

411A I do not agree. Amsterdam (Schipol) ATC are not the best in my experience.
Often snotty, short tempered and argumentative, and frequently lacking any understanding of the capabilities of the aircraft they are controlling. For instance...being vectored at 90deg angle toward the NDB RW19R (ILS off the air), then 1nm from overhead the beacon being told 'you are cleared NDB approach 19R contact tower....' What kind of rubbish is that?

I've never found LHR controllers to be anything less than excellent. LATCC likewise.

Maastricht are usually good...but then they have a lot of Irish guys keeping the dutch heads on straight.

UK ATC
 

Good or Bad ?

Sometimes things fall into place sometimes not.

On the whole, by virtue of the fact that in my experience nobody is better than UK ATC, then I think they are the best in the world.

411a, Yes, I do think you're dumping on the UK. In 29 years I have always been glad to hear UK ATC on my return. When airborne they have always been of the highest standard. On the ground delays due the infrastructure are not life endangering. As for Amsterdam, yes, they are quite good but not as good as their English leads you to believe. Its just as well we haven't brought the US ATC into this isn't it.

The UK controllers have my total support. Also sympathy for the incompetent Management and Government that have led to this story.

"Its just as well we haven't brought the US ATC into this isn't it. "

Please do! Let's say I have a clinical interest... Less interested in a ranking than I am in thoughts as to where we're falling short and what we can do to improve... Is this a comment having to do with individual controller performance or does it refer to something in the systemic/policy/management realm?


av8boy:confused:

Great ... this is becoming a UK vs the rest of Europe/the world thread!

Let's remove all the nationalism/patriotism involved in this issue, what apparently makes UK ATC so bad?

I don't think (UK) controllers have an interest to delay planes etc. And yes, (UK) controllers are friendly most of the time, since it is their job to work with pilots, but there are still a great number of delays! Everything I read so far, does not explain or goes too much into depth. And please... a over 600 million quit investment for the same amount of delays. I'd be kinda pi$$ed too ...

UK ATC let's hear it from you, especially the controllers! What is your criticism? I am not interested in any "we're the best" blablabla, I'd like to read some details and problems ATC has.

Hey mods, any chance creating a crosslink from the NATS forum to this thread?

Is that published on the internet?

I hope MY post wasn't taken as nationalistic (jingoistic, xenophobic, etc, etc) posturing... It's just that the US ATC thing was invoked so casually that I can't help but think I'm the only one who DOESN'T understand what the implication is. Of course, talking fast and not pausing between transmissions comes to mind (mea culpa, mea culpa…), as does ending a sentence with a preposition, like I did before. Or sentence fragments. Or starting a sentence with “and” (or “or”). And the unnecessary splitting of an infinitive. OK. So I'm overdoing the lighthearted thing. Sorry. Long day.

Don't be shy... I'm not itching for a fight here. Just looking for some honest criticism. (And yes, I understand that the ATC forum is the obvious choice for this discussion, but hey, I found it here.)


av8boy

Flying cargo mostly out of Germany (very often to Bristol,Coventry
and East Midlands) I´m always happy when handled over to London.These boys and girls do a excellent job compared to Germany (many route changes,restrictions etc.) mastricht and brussels are o.k.
Who´s really sucking are the french frog eater´s. Flying a circle around Paris is always fun...also their English and especially their
spelling of waypoints which for 99% are not in the flightplan is
great.
No blame on british controlers!

Avman - thankyou for your considered opinion of my 'prattish' reply - just checked the dictionary, don't think its in there old boy.

I accept that controllers are required to speak English/American
to foreign aircraft in their airpsace - the problem comes when they
insist on speaking in Spanish/French/Italian or whatever other
language to local based or registered aircraft. This is fine at a
small grass strip but when used at an international airport or
in controlled airsapce use of local language to some aircraft and
not to others causes, quite simply, confusion. Professional pilots,
in attutude as well as employment,should always be taught not only to 'look out' but also to 'listen out' - not an easy task when different languages are being used. Talk to any pilot operating in
Europe in commercial aircraft and they will know the problem.
I want and need to know what the other guy is doing and where
he is - mistakes happen (recent Swiss mid-air) - I don't have time
to waste trying to comprehend the airborne situation in another
language.

If your 'mother tongue' is English, you do have a natural advantage of course - I can get by in French but do I also have to
become fluent in Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Turkish etc etc ?

We all know which states are the worst in this respect - it is not
a question of ability more a question of attitude - is'nt it Senor ?

Still, perhaps a solution in Europe at least. We all know that Tony
Blair is desperate for us to join the Euro - three years max I reckon - why don't we all quickly learn Esperanto at the same time then all of us in the EU can not only use the same currency but speak the same language as well. So watch out all you guys
from Delta/American/Cathay/Quantas etc - before you know it you
will all be signing up to learn a new language before being allowed to fly in the United Staes of Europe.

After a mid-day flight from the UK into Olbia (Sardinia) the other day no-one can convince me that the UK ATC is the worst in Europe! As usual Sardinia was a complete mad-house! The route takes one over Corsica where the VHF is in a mixture of French and English which then degenerates into a worse mixture of Italian,English and shouting!! After that the UK ATC is absolutely wonderful!

Going back to the original post, as one on the inside, I feel that the Sunday Times published an accurate summary of the facts. I certainly don't feel personally insulted, more relieved that the appalling truth is gradually reaching a wider audience.

As a colleague said recently, working at Swanwick is like watching the slowest train wreck ever. An excellent description!! Each day a little more of the disaster unfolds in front of your eyes, but there is absolutely nothing you can do to change the course of events. I just hope I'm still unscathed when the train finally comes to a halt, and that there are no fatalities.

Notwithstanding anything that Numpo-Nigit has to say about ATC to-day, we should not forget that the Insight team at the Sunday Times made a total cock up of their report into the Korean Airliner being shot down and demonstrated that they had not made even the slightest effort to understand INS, (as it then was), or indeed anything else technical and sought only to present a very dramatic but totally inaccurate yarn to the unitiated public. I rarely read the Sunday Times now, it is just a very large tabloid, but I kept the faith for a number of years after KAL007 and Insight never improved beyond the level of Enid Blyton.

Personally I think UK ATC is the best and I ask 411A when he was last in command of an aircraft in UK airspace?

The majority of controllers in this country are of a good standard however the problem is they are not given the oportunity to give valuable enough input into decision making, that instead is left to managers who dont know there arse from their elbow!
Swanwick was never going to increase capacity and reduce delays only a complete overhaul of airspace in this country will put us on the right track.It is all very well the government saying they want more airports and more runways but there is no space up above to put them and no one in management/government is talking about that, because they dont know what they are doing!
It does not mean that controllers are always right but the pressure is on and thats when the mistakes happen and NATS mangement dont want to know.They have followed in the footsteps of New Labour all "spin" to make us look good but the reality is somewhat different.

AV8BOY, No insult intended, US ATC is one of the better ones around the world but as you say speaking too fast and a somewhat impatient attitude with others drops them a few places. I feel you just assumed that you were alongside 411A as he runs down anything remotely British.

Anybody remember Victor Smart ?

Aviation correspondant on the Observer 1985-89ish.

Now he was a hack who had his finger on the pulse. Produced some very good articles when we at LATCC had our backs to the wall. Reading them now, nothing has changed.

Mind you, he had some good informants.

Mr G.

Three cheers for British ATC! (despite their politically induced problems) Whenever I hear 'Contact London on......' I know the day's improving.
;) :cool: ;)

BTW, there are five official ICAO (ATC) Languages:

English
French
Spanish
Russian
Chinese

Going back to the original post and the posting by Numpo-Nigit it seems that the current ATC system cannot handle more traffic without a fundamental change. I thought 600 mil quit is fundamental enough or is it (again) a political back-firing investment? The Sunday times article does NOT point to the individual controllers who seem to save the day (365/year) but more to the current politics.

With my little international experience I can say that I need to talk to ATC in Spanish sometimes (esp. central/south America). And Spanish is not my native language. I could be totally frustrated but IMHO that's part of your job as a pilot. I'd rather accept this challange than listening to my complaining and whining captains all the time ("This is ridicilous, blablabla"). And when we got a trip overseas and to Canada I talk to them in French. Is it fair compared to a single-language speaker (english)? Certainly not! Unsafer? Well, we then should open another thread.

I understand you UK pilots excitment when you first talk to your home ATC. I feel the same way when I contact ...

Again some interesting replies. I was never seeking to have other ATCOs denegrated and assume that they do their best in the circumstances and with the management and equipment supplied.

An interesting point about an overhaul of the airspace - long overdue but not an explanation why we are working less traffic at Swanwick per ATCO than we did at LATCC.

Why did our management say to the Transport Select Committee that we had a surplus of ATCOs when we are so short only months afterwards.

Why were the predictions of increased traffic handling maintained right up to the O date and beyond ?

Why are we regularly dumping traffic on Manchester and TC and they cope with all the extra traffic but we can hardly cope with the reduced levels.

You guys get all the c**p. Slot delays and level capped - can't do much for your company profitibility. In the meantime we divert trans Atlantic traffic out of UK airspace to protect ourselves and lose the highest income flights !!!

I don't know anyone in ATC who doesn't love Gwyneth Dunwoody. As Chair of the Transport Select Committee she has fought our case against NATS / CAA / Governments for years. Maybe it is time to have a fresh look at this and have Gwyneth and all the major players give evidence about what has happened and what needs to happen in the future to improve things .... How do you call for a Royal Commission ?

2 six 4

you wouldn't know what that 26 page document contains, would you?

squwak 7777 It will be the management report which explains the public figures from Eurocontrol.

Delays

2 six 4 thanks!

For all you interested in a little more "depth" regarding this thread, go to the "ATC Issues" forum

Blue Eagle
In answer to your question, late 2001.