Originally Posted by Sriajuda
(Post 10790706)
Well, maybe they had a scrape. But apparently their engines were able to spool up and provide TOGA thrust. So why schould they both, quite simultaneously, suddenly cut out? Why no APU start? (RAT deployed). To me, (layman!!!) all this points to problems with fuel supply. And the landing gear? No hydraulic pressure? And even when that, is there to a grav-assisted lowering of the gear? Nothing here seems to make sense.
https://avherald.com/h?article=4b57c3dd |
I think Robdean and a couple of others are closest to the truth. I think the aircraft was serviceable during first, fast approach. Gear was forgotten or raised early. Why? Who knows. Maybe the CVR with give an answer. Time will probably tell.
As for the belly landing, if the tower saw the first scrape, then I think asking about it was a fair question. There has been many mishaps from touching the runway with the gear up. Some get away with it others have not. As for the cultural aspect mentioned above, does PIA penalise pilots for missed approaches, too much fuel etc? |
Only 1400 meters to go to the 25L piano keys.
And just 200 meters to the right, uninhabited, rough but flat terrain in front of 25R. Which could have made it a much more survivable crash. I know, hindsight is easy. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0c9abc6f82.png |
Originally Posted by double_barrel
(Post 10790700)
What do you guys think is the significance of the exchange during the 1st approach.where they say they are established on the localizer for 25L, ATC says 'turn left heading 280', they then repeat that they are established on the localizer with no further comment from ATC ? If they were truly on the localizer and flying 250, then 280 would require a right turn. This seems odd.
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and the ATC transmissions on the video posted above are (time) edited and partial.
Those recording are mostly made by spotters small scanners that only work line of sight and will often miss transmissions., as was last demonstrated for instance in the recent Kathmandu Dash 8 accident as we had here dozen of pages debating a scenario based of the partial R/T which had little to do with the real situation if you had access to the full recording..... Drawing conclusions on those partial communications is futile. . . |
Speedbrakes?
What aural alarm would sound when deploying speedbrakes with flaps? Maybe that distracted them?
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
(Post 10790715)
Apologies if his has been covered before but I am not an Airbus driver. I understood that the A320 would lower the gear at 1000 rad alt if it had been forgotton; would that protection have not played a part here?
The only ‘protection is the gear can’t be extended over 10k above max extension speed |
Originally Posted by scotbill
(Post 10790750)
ATC, realising they were too high and fast, offered them a 330 degree left turn to lose height and re-establish on the localiser. Why would you turn that down?
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... and in a normal landing configuration, shouldn't the flaps and slats be extended? on this picture (post118) flaps and slats seem to be still fully retracted. (sorry I fly helicopters and we don't have flaps here)
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Originally Posted by maddog2872
(Post 10790767)
What aural alarm would sound when deploying speedbrakes with flaps? Maybe that distracted them?
The warning heard on the tape is the flap over speed. Nothing to do with speedbrakes. |
Originally Posted by RiSq
(Post 10790690)
I’d hazard a guess that the ATCO has seen the first approach and subsequent sparks. When the pilot initially declares the emergency the ATCO asks about the belly landing as he is still target fixated on what he saw.
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Originally Posted by andrasz
(Post 10790740)
Read the Smartlynx accident report.
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19990301-0 |
Originally Posted by maddog2872
(Post 10790767)
What aural alarm would sound when deploying speedbrakes with flaps? Maybe that distracted them?
chime master caution and yellow Speedbrakes message on the SD -lower ECAM screen. The speedbrakes will automatically retract if any of the high angle of attack protections are active -a prot or a max.. |
Very interesting picture from DIBO. They were quite literally seconds from reaching the clear ground in front of the runway. Dead sticking a medium jet is something we do not seriously train for, I have done it a handful of times in the last twenty years of sim training more for fun when time was left over than real training. If the picture of the aircraft post first attempt at landing is to be believed then the gear was up. When they selected it down would have been crucial on the second attempt and may well have made the difference to reaching the runway or at least landing short but everyone surviving like the British Airways 777 at Heathrow and the sad result we see here. Rob Dean's post 192 sums up pretty well what may well have led up to this.
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Originally Posted by LegiossTypeH
(Post 10790718)
. Airbus recommand pilots to retract gears moments late in low altitude because the aircraft will sink initially due to high pass ratio engines.
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Damaged fuel supply lines? Enough gets through at high power and the engines are obviously good enough to get them to 2000ft. But when the power is reduced so is the fuel pressure and the engines struggle.
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There’s a lot of plumbing at the bottom of nacelle. Fuel Oil Heat exchange;Generator oil and fuel return lines; hydraulic pumps to name a few. It’s not designed to withstand and impact like that and damage to any one of those systems becomes rapidly fatal. The pictures show dark staining under the engines that support a fluid leak that could easily be catastrophic.
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if they came in really hard and fast, and the mlg fully compressed, could there be enough wing flex for the engines to scrape?
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I guess a Gear Up (even partially) touch down is a possibility. So is the engine stains a result of that, possibly.
By the way, did anybody show the METAR there? |
Originally Posted by bedsted
(Post 10790798)
I think you will find that all SOP's call for gear up after a positive rate of climb
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