and
Does nor really fit together I would say.
Anyway like in MH17, the CVR/FDR are not going to tell us much more that we know already since they already admitted the missiles..

in case of MH17, CVR helped to find out side of missile explosion.

In that case it was relevant, because it helped identify the location of the missile launch. In this unfortunate case there is not much information to be gained from the FDR/CVR that we do not already know.

Whether or not proper - and I wish to emphasize or, to stress upon, the word "proper" - analysis of the contents of the FDR/CVR would or could yield new information explanatory of what occurred, there nonetheless is value and importance in pressing Iranian authority to deliver the recorders. The fact, by itself, that the Government of Iran was deliberately untruthful about the loss of Ukrainian 752 is reason enough to insist upon full compliance with all international processes, procedures and norms, including but not limited to the well-established and time-honored methods pursuant to and in accord with Annex 13.

If more reason were needed, the loss of Ukrainian 752 has found its way onto the current agenda of the ICAO Council, in its 219th Session, convened earlier this week: "Canada would [be] presenting a new working paper to Council on Risks to civil aviation in conflict zones: a safer skies initiative and next steps for ICAO, noting that the Representatives of the Ukraine to ICAO would be present at that meeting as well." (From ICAO announcement re the Council session; working paper title as in original) As readers of this thread and others following major developments in this international civil aviation incident are well aware, Canada has taken a leading and, to a degree, prominent role in diplomatic efforts to bring Iranian civil aviation and other authorities into proper compliance in the aftermath of this horrendous and tragic incident.
Link to ICAO website and announcement:
https://www.pressreleasepoint.com/sa...-new-president

Quote:

---

Risks to civil aviation in conflict zones...

---

Isn't this a pleaonasm? Self explanatory? Basic common sense?
Or are conflict zones nebulous?

Pleonasm ? yes it is an a way for 2 reasons, the C in ICAO and the nebulousness of many undefined areas of conflicts which are by nature military in some form or another .
example : Columbia , Turkey or Mexico to take only 3 at random , will fiercely refute that some areas of ( i.e inside) their territory are zones of conflict
And the C in ICAO means they cannot enter discussions of Military or Sate Sovereignty nature. They can only issue common sense recommendations like considering before flying into .etc... they have no power and are the wrong place to ask those questions .
There are specialized sites where you can buy the correct information on every airport and airspace in the world, updated 24/7 . Serious airlines use them ,some would like to use the info but are overruled by their marketing people or their politicians.
There is no World global regulator with powers to enforce anything.

OK, did anyone besides me have to look up "pleonasm"?

March 11 2020

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...n-airliner-to/
"Iran has promised to transfer the “black boxes” from Ukrainian International Airlines flight 752 to Kyiv, more than two months after the Iranian military shot the plane out of the sky, killing all 176 people on board.

Andriy Shevchenko, Ukraine’s ambassador to Canada, said the commitment was made Wednesday at a meeting of the International Civil Aviation Organization in Montreal by Farhad Parvaresh, Iran’s representative to ICAO.

Mr. Pavaresh told the ICAO council that Iran would deliver the two black boxes – which are expected to contain vital information about the last moments before the plane was destroyed by an anti-aircraft missile early on Jan. 8 – to Ukraine within 14 days.

“We hope Iran will not change its mind again,” Mr. Shevchenko wrote in a message, referencing previous Iranian promises to send the black boxes to Ukraine.

Flight 752 was hit by at least one missile shortly after it took off from Tehran’s Imam Khomeini International Airport on Jan. 8. The catastrophe occurred just hours after Iran had launched a ballistic missile attack on U.S. military bases in neighbouring Iraq, and while Iran’s military was braced for possible U.S. retribution."

Like what?!

It's likely that, as with MH17, the CVR will help investigators to determine exactly where (relative to the aircraft) and when the missile strike occurred.

Really, who cares? The facts remain that the Jet was shotdown. Anything more is not needed.

In all likelihood the victims' surviving family members do, in fact, care about what information is to be found on the recorders. Clearly the diplomatic initiatives, including presently at ICAO Council, show that the countries from which the victims hailed have reason to care.

Unless, that is, we are to look at the aftermath of the incident as nothing but an exercise in bloodless calculus of flight dynamics, explosive force, and missile trajectories. My contention is that only abject cynicism, or rankly amatuerish apologia for Iranian malfeasance, can explain such indifference.

Let's tick off some reasons for treating the recorders as part of, if you will, an international civil aviation crime scene, shall we?

Military action against airliners is nothing new; KAL007 some 36 and a half years ago is a commonly cited exemplar. But is it really being contended that the current aftermath of Ukrainian 752 is the best the international system can do? That the recorders should be shrugged off because there are, to the knowledge of the authoritative and expert aviators, no material facts about the shootdown to be uncovered? What about the fact that obtaining the output from the recorders will remove any uncertainty or disbelief held by the victims' families? Perhaps the pilots' final words on the CVR will hold meaning for their families, dark as this might be.

And Annex 13, if it could speak, do we now say it would just shrug at Iran's deliberate, willful lies at the initial phase of the aftermath? The CVR/FDR won't erase the lies but allowing Iran to play its unbelievably bad faith games about the recorders compounds the issue.

I'm not going to contend that obtaining the recorders will suddenly empower ICAO or some other civil aviation-related body (or group of organizations) to prevent future incidents of this nature. That is, I'm not going to argue that point here. And not while the in absentia Dutch trial in re: MH17 is in progress.

WillowRun 6-3

Your answer to Longtimer -- and others who may share his (either uninformed or simply cynical) opinion -- is superb. Thank you

Diplomatic progress (??)
 

According to remarks made by Ukraine's Ambassador to Canada on a cbc news interview segment, the ICAO Council today (Friday June 26) will hear and receive some form of report or statement by Iran with respect to status of the CVR and FDR from the Ukrainian airliner (Flight 752) shot down over, and by, Iran earlier this year. A look at the ICAO website for information about the Council agenda was not revealing. Yet the impression one gets is that it is not very typical for Member States who are not Members of the Council to present in such a fashion to formal sessions …. not that this matters - what will matter is any result, a big "if."
A link to the Ambassador's tv interview follows.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1755209795888

Date set for readout in France
 

From @icao on Twitter, June 26:
"Iran has advised today’s ICAO Council Session that #PS752 black boxes are to be read-out in France on 20 July, employing #COVID19 protocols while assuring the participation of representatives from all countries involved. ICAO advisors will continue supporting all parties."

Factual report out today:
 

The link on the page takes you to the FARSI PDF document. The second half of the PDF contains the English version. (Thanks MikeSnow)

Factual Report

And on BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-53382794

magegear

Thanks!
In the English part page, 12/16 (in the PDF page 30/33) is a table of pax per nation.
It is somewhat difficult to understand but then I got it.
Travel documents submitted for reservation: means reservations.
Travel documents presented at IKA border control: means boarded.
If you add reservations for western passengers: 76 (63 Canadian, 3 German, 3 British, 10 Swedish)
But boarded western pax: 9 (5 Canadian, 4 Swedish).
They filled the no-show with: 146 Iranian instead of 82 booked and 10 Afghan instead of 4 booked.

How can it happen that almost all western passenger not boarded that flight? Just in fear after the assassination? Or was there a warning from a friendly side?

One source said the difference was because IRAN holds that if you were a citizen, then you still are .... evidently a number of those holding Canadian Passports were originally citizens of Iran.

Aviation records rarely cater for dual nationality, which for those who have emigrated overseas is very common and requires them to travel with two passports. Issues with visas, and the inability to record different document details for different directions on the same airline booking, leads to significant inconsistencies. One may well have to show Iranian passports on departure at immigration to tie up with landing card details, but show Canadian passports to the airline to show ability to enter the destination country. Check in staff are fully familiar with all this but reservation system designers have overlooked it.

I still don't get one thing. The Malaysian shootdown over Ukraine one sort of sees, a lone radar image coming from a direction that hostility was expected from. But at Tehran the missile site was just on the departure side of the country's principal airport. There were a string of departures before this one. The missile crew must have seen them all passing on the same track, same height. Why suddenly this one ?