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Smoking next to an aircraft being refuelled.
There are times my fellow travellers leave me speechless...
https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/20/idiot...lled-10778001/ |
Can’t smoke within 8 hours of flying, can’t drink within 50 m of an aircraft |
Not totally the same, but I remember being able to smoke on the ground (inside the delayed aircraft) on Air India in the 90's. Food was good too.
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Smoking and fueling in progress!
Dude!
If I had cent for every time I have stopped someone smoking on the tarmac!!! I have uplifted some 25 million liters Jet A1 and had my first fuel leak the other day. 2 or at the most 3 liters. Big circus. No smokers, No CNN. Lokelihood of caboom is small, just compare with any gas station, which has more spills and plenty of smokers. The cigarettes is not dangerous , the ignorant selfish tosser behind it is. Some people love to challenge authority these days. |
Back in my racing days, I watched - more than once - (from a discrete distance) as others poured racing gasoline into their fuel tank while smoking - once even saw the ash fall off the cigarette and land in the fuel as it was being poured :eek:.
As a certain American comedian likes to say 'you can't fix stupid' :( |
If jetfuel was as explosive as the interviewed 'survivors' seem to believe, i would never be in the vicinity of an aircraft.
Was it dangerous? No, not at all, but it is illegal... |
Originally Posted by The Bartender
(Post 10574730)
If jetfuel was as explosive as the interviewed 'survivors' seem to believe, i would never be in the vicinity of an aircraft.
Was it dangerous? No, not at all, but it is illegal... |
Originally Posted by OldnGrounded
(Post 10574734)
Exactly. Unless it's aerosolized or the ambient temp is really high, you could extinguish burning cigarettes (or matches) in Jet A1 all day, without incident (except for contaminating the fuel). But don't do that, of course.
The folks at SeaTac airport tried a version of that experiment for you. |
.[/QUOTE] Originally Posted by The Bartender https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif If jetfuel was as explosive as the interviewed 'survivors' seem to believe, i would never be in the vicinity of an aircraft. Was it dangerous? No, not at all, but it is illegal... Exactly. Unless it's aerosolized or the ambient temp is really high, you could extinguish burning cigarettes (or matches) in Jet A1 all day, without incident (except for contaminating the fuel). But don't do that, of course. .[/QUOTE] I remember staging through an Italian airforce base in Bari many moons ago, we had arranged to be refuelled and I nipped over to see the Italian guys who were refuelling their G91’s to try to get ours done pdq. Found the guy on the fuel hose with a fag in the corner of his mouth, he must have seen me recoil in fright because when he finished topping off the tank he gave me a toothless grin and put his fag out by dipping it in the overflowing tank. So because no Big Bang occurred, I can confirm the above quote is true, but my nerves have never been the same since! |
Originally Posted by Water pilot
(Post 10574779)
Perhaps not exactly correct...
The folks at SeaTac airport tried a version of that experiment for you. Let me see . . . |
Many years ago I was idling at a maintenance hangar and a mechanic was working on a Cessna 310 fuel drain with a lit cigarette in his mouth. He stuck his screwdriver into the drain and whatever he did caused the fuel - avgas- to come gushing out. So he calmly dropped the cigarette into the avgas on the ground and it extinguished. This was at an ambient temperature of beach clothing magnitude. No BS, I saw it with my own eyes.
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How do you tell a captain, that's Flown the Hump in Burma, not to smoke on a DC3 flight deck? You wouldn't dare! Condensation collector trough filled with dog-ends and a fag lit while turning base at Ostend. Yes, turning base. Suck, suck suck suck - long glowing core of fire - stub stub stub - pat sparks on lap - flare - peep of tyres.
I can still smell the aroma of petrol, see the NO SMOKING placard and the collapse of the pile of previous dog-ends cascading out of the trough. Kuh! Tell the kids of today . . . |
And I knew a guy who demonstrated to his work crew that you can remove the bright yellow staining of sodium iso-butyl xanthate from your hands by washing them in cyanide solution.
As with the cigarette in gasoline example, it works but that doesn't make it a good idea. |
If you want the exciting bit, 1:32 onwards.
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Passenger Sarah Beecroft, 43, said a member of the aviation team ran over to him ‘grabbed the cigarette out of his hand and stubbed it out’. She said: ‘It was outrageous, everyone was going crazy – we could’ve died. It doesn’t bear to think what could’ve happened. It was just an act of stupidity. As it says on top of this webpage: NEWS... BUT NOT AS YOU KNOW IT |
The late, great Alan Bodger, General Manager of Gulf Aviation/Gulf Air in the 1960's-1970's, one of the DC-3 Hump pilots mentioned above, would often step in to fill a last minute crew vacancy on a DC3 or F27 service operating from Bahrain. So would the Chief Pilot Jimmy Madle. (Spelling??).
His practice was to light up his ciigar while taxying, so that it was going well by the time he needed both hands for take-off. He would then puff contentedly until it was well and truly finished. If the first stop was Doha, it would last through the turn-round and departure for Abu Dhabi or Dubai. |
What about electrical bonding leads? |
Have you TRIED to light cold AVTUR?
AVGAS, different matter. Whilst I appreciate why the rules are there (40+ years of experience flying/refuelling), I do think there are times where the zealous are just a pain in the arse. |
Fire during fueling All it takes is a heat source and a fuel spray. The latter is unusual, but I have had fuel spraying out of the fuel vents a few times. The rules are there for a reason. |
I was told that in the RN firefighting course the CPO would demonstrate how to extinguish a petrol fire by sloshing on a wave of petrol. It's the vapour that's burning etc. Better make sure there's not a persistent source of ignition though.
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Summary
Very little risk by smoking near an airplane fueling except if there happens to be a wind to vaporize the fuel so be sure and hold a balloon with you while boarding to check for a wind |
Since this thread has gone well off topic, allow me to continue....I would be interested in any comments on this...
I was among the passengers bussed out to a KQ E190 at Addis Ababa recently. On arrival at the aircraft, boarding was done with passengers being allowed onto the a/c in groups of max 5 people "because the a/c was being refuelled". I have never encountered that before, what is the logic? Is that a KQ thing? An Addis airport thing? An ICAO thing ? |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10575220)
Fire during fueling All it takes is a heat source and a fuel spray. The latter is unusual, but I have had fuel spraying out of the fuel vents a few times. The rules are there for a reason. |
Lomapaseo,
Taking your remark as somewhat T.I.C., this forum does have a habit of being becoming a de facto reference source. No smoking/Naked lights airside is a pretty universal sanction, certainly in Western Europe and the U.S., for good reason - mitigating risk is why aviation is as safe as it is. Cannot commend the decisive action taken by the captain enough |
Originally Posted by Momoe
(Post 10575392)
Lomapaseo,
Taking your remark as somewhat T.I.C., this forum does have a habit of being becoming a de facto reference source. No smoking/Naked lights airside is a pretty universal sanction, certainly in Western Europe and the U.S., for good reason - mitigating risk is why aviation is as safe as it is. Cannot commend the decisive action taken by the captain enough |
Originally Posted by double_barrel
(Post 10575347)
Since this thread has gone well off topic, allow me to continue....I would be interested in any comments on this...
I was among the passengers bussed out to a KQ E190 at Addis Ababa recently. On arrival at the aircraft, boarding was done with passengers being allowed onto the a/c in groups of max 5 people "because the a/c was being refuelled". I have never encountered that before, what is the logic? Is that a KQ thing? An Addis airport thing? An ICAO thing ? |
From a chemistry point of view, yes you could extinguish a naked flame with kerosene, it's got a pretty low vapour pressure and a reasonably high flashpoint.
I wouldn't recommend it though especially if it is atomized. |
Point is, fuel in liquid form won't burn. Only the vapour burns.
A full fuel tank contains little vapour, but an empty fuel tank is full of it. |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10575961)
Point is, fuel in liquid form won't burn. Only the vapour burns.
A full fuel tank contains little vapour, but an empty fuel tank is full of it. You then need to take into account the probability of an ignition source and the probability of sloshing to fill a larger closed area |
An empty tank is full of vapour. When you fill the tank this displaces the vapour which overflows, (heavier than air), falls to the ground to make a puddle of vapour. This could very well be an ignition hazard especially on a calm day.
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Vapour does not burn, just check the video posted earlier. Fuel needs to be atomized to catch fire. A fuel spray will do that. As happened in the BA fire during fueling. |
Originally Posted by drichard
(Post 10574671)
There are times my fellow travellers leave me speechless...
https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/20/idiot...lled-10778001/ (1) The old Paddy Ashdown joke. He was in a meeting in his HQ in Bosnia, which was next door to a petrol station. His staff were getting all worked up about this being a dangerous location - what if the baddies were to blow up the petrol station? "Have any of you lot actually tried to blow up a petrol station?" asked Paddy. "No", they said. "Well," said Paddy, "I have, and it's bloody difficult." (2) Marquess of Bristol. Smoking whilst refuelling his chopper at Cambridge. Then took off straight from the pumps, none of this taxying to where ATC told him to or any of that nonsense. |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10576389)
Vapour does not burn, just check the video posted earlier. Fuel needs to be atomized to catch fire. A fuel spray will do that. As happened in the BA fire during fueling. Obviously, to burn, any form of any fuel also needs oxygen mixed with it....if that's what you're getting at? P.S. do NOT try welding a petrol tank at home, or anywhere else. Btw, years ago I saw a fire begin in an almost full motorbike petrol tank. Once the (thankfully small) volume of fuel/air vapour above the liquid fuel in the tank instantly burned with a "pop" the fire blew itself out. Thankfully, the person nearest put the fuel cap back on again. |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10576442)
Very wrong! By that logic it would be safe to weld a drained petrol tank where there is no atomised fuel spray.
Obviously, to burn, any form of any fuel also needs oxygen mixed with it....if that's what you're getting at? P.S. do NOT try welding a petrol tank at home, or anywhere else. Btw, years ago I saw a fire begin in an almost full motorbike petrol tank. Once the (thankfully small) volume of fuel/air vapour above the liquid fuel in the tank instantly burned with a "pop" the fire blew itself out. Thankfully, the person nearest put the fuel cap back on again. Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not. Again, see the video postet earlier. |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10576555)
I thought this discussion was about jet fuel? Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not. Again, see the video postet earlier. |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10576555)
I thought this discussion was about jet fuel? Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not. It's worth noting that rules don't normally take into account the type of aircraft or fuel. Sure, smoking while fueling with Jet A or similar is very different than while fueling with aviation gas/petrol. But most airports do both and don't want to be bothered with different sets of rules for different aircraft or fuels. |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10576555)
I thought this discussion was about jet fuel? Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not. Again, see the video postet earlier. |
Originally Posted by PJD1
(Post 10576580)
............ JetA1 has a flash point of at least 38 deg C so needs to be heated above that temperature before it will give off sufficient vapour to ignite.
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Originally Posted by WingNut60
(Post 10576700)
......... and gasoline has a flash point around -40 deg C. Yes, that's MINUS 40.
Both the same at -40 |
Darwin would have something to say on the matter.
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