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-   -   Another Disruptive Passenger (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/622791-another-disruptive-passenger.html)

Herod 22nd Jun 2019 20:15

Another Disruptive Passenger
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48732642

Only a few thousand pounds of the defence budget gone.

XV490 22nd Jun 2019 20:53


Originally Posted by Herod (Post 10500612)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48732642

Only a few thousand pounds of the defence budget gone.

A few? A hundred grand at least, surely? Plus a tanker reportedly involved. Makes my blood pressure soar well above its already unhealthy average level.

PerPurumTonantes 22nd Jun 2019 21:12


Originally Posted by XV490 (Post 10500628)
A few? A hundred grand at least, surely? Plus a tanker reportedly involved. Makes my blood pressure soar well above its already unhealthy average level.

You'd hope that if they weren't doing that, they'd be doing other great training exercises. So maybe net cost to uk defence budget negligible.

With you on the blood pressure though. Cost to everyone on the flight, wasted fuel, f/a stress of dealing with worse than the usual class of idiot.

Military escort suggests security issue, so perhaps stress to all pax and crew as well thinking that they might not make it home.

wiggy 22nd Jun 2019 21:27


Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes (Post 10500635)
You'd hope that if they weren't doing that, they'd be doing other great training exercises. So maybe net cost to uk defence budget negligible..

Best guess is you're probably right..if it is now as it was "back in the day" the crew ( ground and aircrew) would have been in the Q shed anyway, and they can possibly put ticks in a few training boxes and also get a few hours in towards the Wing Commander's DFC :ok: as a result of the scramble so I reckon the overall cost would be pretty small.

That said I'm still all for throwing the book and bookcase at the disruptive passenger.

flybar 22nd Jun 2019 21:30

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/935360...terror-hijack/

The Good Old British Press has now moved to hijack mode!!
When the Daily M--l gets it all passengers will have been doomed!

Appears to have been the Titan Airways A321 currently with Jet2

PerPurumTonantes 22nd Jun 2019 21:46


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10500652)
That said I'm still all for throwing the book and bookcase at the disruptive passenger.

They rarely seem to get the book thrown at them never mind the full bookcase, unfortunately. Does anyone know if the operators share a no-fly list of these tw#ts?

Thaihawk 22nd Jun 2019 21:57


Originally Posted by Herod (Post 10500612)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48732642

Only a few thousand pounds of the defence budget gone.

.. Which if we had a government with cojones would be removed from the offending passenger's bank account or retrieved through asset confiscation forthwith.

Herod 22nd Jun 2019 22:00

"Why me? Why me?" Aw, poor diddums

XV490 22nd Jun 2019 22:36

There was a time when the Royal Air Force scrambled fighters to face real foes, not flying busloads of scr0tes.

Maybe I'll have calmed down in the morning, but I doubt it. I have visions of the culprit eventually dining out on her notoriety. 😬

_drjim_ 22nd Jun 2019 23:24

Hello all long time lurker on the forum and nervous SLF rather than professional aviator. Work as A&E Doctor and have CRM type interests...

Can anyone explain why a fighter jet helps deal with an unruly passenger - according to daily mail she was restrained by 6 other passengers/crew, pictures show a smallish Lady on the floor. What does a fighter jet do to help?

marchino61 23rd Jun 2019 01:27


Originally Posted by _drjim_ (Post 10500728)
Hello all long time lurker on the forum and nervous SLF rather than professional aviator. Work as A&E Doctor and have CRM type interests...

Can anyone explain why a fighter jet helps deal with an unruly passenger - according to daily mail she was restrained by 6 other passengers/crew, pictures show a smallish Lady on the floor. What does a fighter jet do to help?

I believe they will shoot down the aircraft if it is judged to be a danger to people on the ground.

PastTense 23rd Jun 2019 01:50


Originally Posted by marchino61 (Post 10500759)
I believe they will shoot down the aircraft if it is judged to be a danger to people on the ground.

Thus everyone on the plane ending up dead--so it's not obvious to me why a pilot would request this--unless it was something like a terrorist with a bomb...

MENELAUS 23rd Jun 2019 01:59


Originally Posted by _drjim_ (Post 10500728)
Hello all long time lurker on the forum and nervous SLF rather than professional aviator. Work as A&E Doctor and have CRM type interests...

Can anyone explain why a fighter jet helps deal with an unruly passenger - according to daily mail she was restrained by 6 other passengers/crew, pictures show a smallish Lady on the floor. What does a fighter jet do to help?

it doesn’t frankly. And more likely a government reaction. During 9/11 we were met by National Guard aircraft and escorted to Fairbanks AK. Which did nothing other than put the sh@ts up the pax. I’m pretty sure they’d have splashed us if we’d deviated in the slightest from their instructions. For good reason on that occasion. Can’t see how it helped with this other than peeing away more of the budget. ‘N

rjtjrt 23rd Jun 2019 02:32


Originally Posted by _drjim_ (Post 10500728)
Hello all long time lurker on the forum and nervous SLF rather than professional aviator. Work as A&E Doctor and have CRM type interests...

Can anyone explain why a fighter jet helps deal with an unruly passenger - according to daily mail she was restrained by 6 other passengers/crew, pictures show a smallish Lady on the floor. What does a fighter jet do to help?

Because they need to be sure it is not an attempt to hijack aircraft, rather than just an unruly passenger.
ATC were not to know the exact situation in cabin.
One report said pilot in radio message said “cockpit secure”, which presumably rather than reassure ATC made them feel cockpit breach had been attempted. Further reports say passenger rushed at cockpit door before restrained.
Not saying she attempted to hijack, but ATC are playing it safe.

Final 3 Greens 23rd Jun 2019 06:29

How can a fighter escort mitigate a disruptive pax?
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jet2-stansted-raf-jets-sonic-boom-typhoon-qra-a8970716.htm

Genuine question from a pax - how does a fighter escort help resolve a disruptive passenger situation?

3Greens 23rd Jun 2019 06:54

The security services on the ground don’t necessarily know that it’s just some chav whos had too much too drink.
They may well have to assume it’s an attempt at a breach of the flight deck, and since 9/11, do you really need it spelling out as to why the typhoons are there?

rog747 23rd Jun 2019 07:17

What is it with all these diversions for disruptive pax - ?
It's daily!!
Not just on flights to/from UK but it seems to be occurring all over.

In my aviation career from almost 50 years ago we never had one diversion for any such behaviour - Such pax would never have got to the aircraft door in my day, or if they got messy on board then the no. 1 CC held short shift with anyone misbehaving...

And I think we experienced maybe one medical diversion in all that time - now that too is a daily occurrence with sick pax

Tay Cough 23rd Jun 2019 07:28


Can anyone explain why a fighter jet helps deal with an unruly passenger - according to daily mail she was restrained by 6 other passengers/crew, pictures show a smallish Lady on the floor. What does a fighter jet do to help?
Kill it if it becomes a threat to people on the ground. It probably won’t but history suggests it could.

beamer 23rd Jun 2019 08:14

I'm guessing that the RAF wanted an excuse to test out their reaction time and had a word with air traffic for a heads up next time there was a minor incident such as yesterday,

I used to rely on gate staff, handling agents and cabin crew to screen these idiots from boarding. If there was any doubt then they would not be carried on my aircraft. Problem lies in the availability of booze 24/7 allied to the fact that the first thing the airlines do is offer passengers alcohol regardless of the time of day. I never had to divert for unruly pax but on numerous occasions I made sure that they were met with friendly local police whose modus operandi may not have been quite as politically correct as in the UK !

Final 3 Greens 23rd Jun 2019 09:07


Originally Posted by 3Greens (Post 10500852)
The security services on the ground don’t necessarily know that it’s just some chav whos had too much too drink.
They may well have to assume it’s an attempt at a breach of the flight deck, and since 9/11, do you really need it spelling out as to why the typhoons are there?

Are you arguing that a disruptive passenger, acting alone, is going to be able to breach the reinforced flight deck door and gain access? Sorry, I don't buy that.

Final 3 Greens 23rd Jun 2019 09:08


Originally Posted by beamer (Post 10500921)
I'm guessing that the RAF wanted an excuse to test out their reaction time and had a word with air traffic for a heads up next time there was a minor incident such as yesterday,

That sounds plausible, thanks for responding.

Blackfriar 23rd Jun 2019 09:16

I would rather the RAF were standing by to shoot it down and not needed than vice versa and it ends up in the City in a smoking hole. You don't know what was said and people quickly made the decision to be better safe than sorry.

302szd55 23rd Jun 2019 09:59

These occurences seem to come in waves. Back in the 90's I was involved in "having a word" with 2 idiots aggresively intimidating young female CC on 2 entirely separate flights. On both occasions alcohol was involved and after myself and other agrieved passengers explained that their behaviour was unacceptible and liable to end badly for them, they calmed down and there was no further problem. In the same decade I also witnessed a brawl between several scumbags, again fueled by alcohol, on a flight in the US. Since then, despite having made more flights than I care to mention, I have seen no real trouble at all.

Out Of Trim 23rd Jun 2019 10:38


Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens (Post 10500973)
Are you arguing that a disruptive passenger, acting alone, is going to be able to breach the reinforced flight deck door and gain access? Sorry, I don't buy that.

How do you predict that it might be just a lone disruptive passenger?

They might well be a part of a ploy to divert attention whilst others combine to take control of the aircraft.

I'm glad the RAF remains ready and able to deploy so quickly to defeat any such attempt to try a 9/11 type event in the UK. :D

Hotel Tango 23rd Jun 2019 10:49


How do you predict that it might be just a lone disruptive passenger?

They might well be a part of a ploy to divert attention whilst others combine to take control of the aircraft.
Exactly! And ATC have set procedures to follow in such and similar events.

SMT Member 23rd Jun 2019 11:09

The real question is as follows: Are the airlines and airports really intersted in doing something about this, or are they merely whinging at the front door whilst quietly counting the money in a back room? I have more than a sneaking suspicion it's the latter, in which case they may safely stuff their complaints where the sun doesn't shine.

If they were truly intended on rooting out this kind of behaviour, a few actions would have it stopped by tomorrow. They could start by breathalysing every single passenger, and if they blow more than x% they're off-loaded. Likewise, they could ban the sale and consumption of alcohol onboard; duty free bought onboard could be delivered at the very end of the trip, and passengers would not be allowed to bring any alcohol onboard they purchased on the ground.

But, as initially stated, that would interfere with their first, second and last priority: Making money.

groundbum 23rd Jun 2019 11:17

Airlines could change their contract with the ground agent so ground agent pays any costs related to a passenger they've boarded. Simples.

G

etrang 23rd Jun 2019 11:29


Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens (Post 10500836)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jet2-stansted-raf-jets-sonic-boom-typhoon-qra-a8970716.htm

Genuine question from a pax - how does a fighter escort help resolve a disruptive passenger situation?

It doesn't. But in a worst case scenario they can shoot the plane down. They can also monitor and provide independent reports of the aircraft activity. It also provides a good training exercise.

Johnny F@rt Pants 23rd Jun 2019 11:30


If they were truly intended on rooting out this kind of behaviour, a few actions would have it stopped by tomorrow. They could start by breathalysing every single passenger, and if they blow more than x% they're off-loaded. Likewise, they could ban the sale and consumption of alcohol onboard; duty free bought onboard could be delivered at the very end of the trip, and passengers would not be allowed to bring any alcohol onboard they purchased on the ground.
The airline involved here do much of what you have suggested. There isn’t time to breathalyse every single passenger, but facilities are available and have been used to breathalyse people suspected of being inebriated and they have been then prevented from flying. Sales of alcohol are restricted to a set time of the day, still early mind, and are monitored and restricted by the Cabin Crew (or should be, they are taught to do so). The airline has also been instrumental in some airports sealing duty free sales in tamper proof bags to try to eliminate people drinking this, not a perfect solution, but every little helps. It would be down to the airport to instigate a delivery service to the aeroplane like in the US, and there seems to be a reluctance to go down that route.

The airline involved here also prosecutes these imbeciles, and delivers the bill to them for the expense incurred. I’m sure this lady (if you can call her that) will end up in prison after this event, she won’t be the first that this airline has pursued and seen sentenced:D:D

Out Of Trim 23rd Jun 2019 11:36


Originally Posted by groundbum (Post 10501074)
Airlines could change their contract with the ground agent so ground agent pays any costs related to a passenger they've boarded. Simples.

G

Not quite so simple!

Ground agents are not bouncers. Some pax can seem fine passing through the gate but then kick off once on board. It's not always so obvious as to who should be denied boarding and would often require the Police in attendance to sort out those that then kick off at the gate! Who has the power to decide? :sad:

etrang 23rd Jun 2019 11:39

According to other pax on this flight she appeared perfectly normal until after take-off. Then she just went crazy, not drunk, just crazy.

Final 3 Greens 23rd Jun 2019 12:51


Originally Posted by Out Of Trim (Post 10501041)
How do you predict that it might be just a lone disruptive passenger?

They might well be a part of a ploy to divert attention whilst others combine to take control of the aircraft.

I'm glad the RAF remains ready and able to deploy so quickly to defeat any such attempt to try a 9/11 type event in the UK. :D

Does it really matter if it is one or more people? It's not 2001, any longer. Procedures have changed and the access to the flight deck that the 9/11 criminals got has evaporated, reinforced doors, cameras, etc., to say nothing of the action by other pax.

I'm grateful for the efforts of all of our armed forces, they do a great job.

barry lloyd 23rd Jun 2019 12:57

What I find ridiculous in all this is that the media are not concentrating on the perpetrator or the potential conequences, rather on a big bang in Essex and associated counties, but then I suppose the same media are threatening world war at every opportunity, so perhaps it's not surprising after all when people hear a sonic boom these days.
The person concerned will be brought before the magistrates tomorrow (UK time) and doubtless will later have a plea of mitigation. Probably a poor childhood/just lost her job and/or boyfriend, or her favourite was voted off Love Island. These people make me sick.

Shandy52 23rd Jun 2019 13:09


Originally Posted by barry lloyd (Post 10501135)
The person concerned will be brought before the magistrates tomorrow (UK time) and doubtless will later have a plea of mitigation. Probably a poor childhood/just lost her job and/or boyfriend, or her favourite was voted off Love Island. These people make me sick.

Or just possibly she requires psychiatric treatment. We shall have to wait and see.

SMT Member 23rd Jun 2019 14:07


Originally Posted by groundbum (Post 10501074)
Airlines could change their contract with the ground agent so ground agent pays any costs related to a passenger they've boarded. Simples.

G

Good luck finding a handling agent willing to sign for that!

Besides, any lawyer worth their salt could easily make a case the buck stops at the door, and as the passengers walks onboard any further responsibility is on the airline.

BEagle 23rd Jun 2019 14:13


Or just possibly she requires psychiatric treatment. We shall have to wait and see.
The first sensible comment on this thread!

Allow airline terminal security goons to bully passengers who have to queue for ages (as at that dump known as Stansted), then cram them in to 30in pitch seats and if they suffer from a fear of flying or claustrophobia, some might well 'flip' and behave irrationally, particularly if they've had even half a wine gum after reaching the departure gate area.

Economy airline travel is a pretty stressful experience these days - although the behaviour of some passengers, such as the Vicky Pollard clones I saw waddling off to some flight from BHX to Oybeefa for a hen party the other week, is pretty disgusting.

Capt Pit Bull 23rd Jun 2019 16:00

You can't figure this out?

In case the initial report of a disruptive passenger turns out to be a terrorist attempt at a suicide hijacking 9-11 style.

DaveReidUK 23rd Jun 2019 17:31


Originally Posted by Johnny F@rt Pants (Post 10501084)
The airline involved here do much of what you have suggested.

Are you referring to Titan, whose aircraft and (presumably) crew operated the flight, or Jet2, whose flight it was ?


Airbanda 23rd Jun 2019 18:07


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10501270)
Are you referring to Titan, whose aircraft and (presumably) crew operated the flight, or Jet2, whose flight it was ?

I think Jet 2 have a reputation for responding robustly to these sort of cases. I doubt fact that operation of this flight was subbed out to Titan makes any difference. Do Titan provide the CC or are they Jet 2.

Joe_K 23rd Jun 2019 21:52


Originally Posted by barry lloyd (Post 10501135)
What I find ridiculous in all this is that the media are not concentrating on the perpetrator or the potential conequences, rather on a big bang in Essex and associated counties

Seriously? From a journalism point of view that's what the story is: people in Essex and Cambridgeshire heard a loud bang and rang the police to complain. Just like they always complain when they hear a "sonic boom". People will undoubtedly be disappointed to read that the fighters were scrambled over a real security concern, if it was training they would be able to complain more. IIRC there was even a compensation claim filed with the MOD when they intercepted an Easyjet flight back in 2017, allegedly damage to a roof and windows. It seems to be a major preoccupation these days, complaining and claiming compensation...


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