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U.S grounds ALL 737 Max
per announcement from White House
link may follow NYT partly screwed up https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/b...a-737-max.html Trump Announces Ban of Boeing 737 Max Flights Video 0:59Canada Bans Boeing 737 Max
President Trump announced that the United States was grounding Boeing’s 737 Max aircraft, reversing an earlier decision by American regulators to keep the jets flying in the wake of a second deadly crash involving one of the jets in Ethiopia.The Federal Aviation Administration had for days resisted calls to ground the plane even as safety regulators in some 42 countries hadbanned flights by the jets. As recently as Tuesday, the agency said it had seen “no systemic performance issues” that would prompt it to halt flights of the jet.The order came hours after Canada’s transport minister said that newly available satellite-tracking data suggested similarities between the crash in Ethiopia and another accident last October. |
Trump says FAA & Boeing in agreement.
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What’s that Boeing marketing slogan again? they were interviewing passengers at an airport the other day, and they were actually using it. ”If it says Boeing, I ain’t going” |
Is it unusual for such announcements to originate from the White House? mjb |
The issue, in my mind, is the silence of Boeing and the FAA, in the face of serious public concerns. I'm not a huge Trump supporter, but something needed to be said and done.
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That's good to hear, glad to see erring on the side of caution
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Originally Posted by CONSO
(Post 10417072)
per announcement from White House
Trump Announces Ban of Boeing 737 Max Flights Still a few in the air ATM over US/Canada mostly... BOE123 WJA8978 ACA7056 ACA7054 https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....40c22601ab.jpg |
All crew-only recovery flights. BOE= Boeing test/undelivered flights. 8900-series flights are maintenance/special flights per ICAO. ACA used 7xxx numbers as ferry flights to maintenance bases. At KPSP, the ACA aircraft arrived as normal from CYVR; the turnaround was a ferry to CYYC instead of CYVR and departed only a few minutes later than the originally scheduled revenue flight.
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Originally Posted by Dee Vee
(Post 10417659)
Still a few in the air ATM over US/Canada mostly...
....... ACA7056 ACA7054 ........
Originally Posted by kenish
(Post 10417682)
.....ACA used previously scheduled flight numbers but flew to maintenance bases.
These ACA flights and others that were in the air with 4 digits such as above, were all ferry flights. Seen here. These are not regular flight numbers. |
Originally Posted by mickjoebill
(Post 10417596)
Is it unusual for such announcements to originate from the White House? mjb
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Why would FAA (which btw is led by a former military pilot, is it not?) resisted the groundings? In the past they were always on the side of caution. Two planes down in 5 months, the public is very concerned, yet they don't act. I don't want to speculate about the obvious suspicion of corruption but what could any other reasons be?
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Very good article on Leehams about this and what Boeing needs to do.
https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/13/co...-transparency/ |
Preemo , #11 :ok: A very telling article from Lehman. The non-standard presidential intervention also adds to the FAA’s problems, reputation, trust, worldly image. Additionally, some un substantiated reports state that the grounding lasts until Boeing has a modification, i.e not just a temporary grounding for safety until more information is available. If so this implies that irrespective of the outcome of the Ethiopian accident, there is now sufficient concern about Lion to warrant grounding. Trump has built his wall - around Boeing and FAA, and it is very much higher than normal. P.S. Also https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...n-the-737-max/ |
Any FAA official who grounded the B737 Max would have no chance of retiring from government service and joining Boeing. In the US, it's not unusual to have people moving from senior positions in the public sector into the private sector and vice versa within the same industry.
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Originally Posted by krismiler
(Post 10417836)
Any FAA official who grounded the B737 Max would have no chance of retiring from government service and joining Boeing. In the US, it's not unusual to have people moving from senior positions in the public sector into the private sector and vice versa within the same industry.
Now back with the revolving door at the FAA. Regulatory capture is very real and soft corruption pays big dividend. |
stick pusher
Hello, retired many years ago .Flew 737 200/300/400 and really liked the plane. This MCAS system looks similar to the ALSAS on the MD 11. Can anybody explain me why the stick pusher uses the stabiliser iso the elevator ?
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Originally Posted by Good memories
(Post 10418014)
Hello, retired many years ago .Flew 737 200/300/400 and really liked the plane. This MCAS system looks similar to the ALSAS on the MD 11. Can anybody explain me why the stick pusher uses the stabiliser iso the elevator ?
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Recent posts on the main thread, that happen to be from Seattle, give a very clear understanding of the design logic. But first read the Jakarta thread in full before starting again with last Sunday's crash thread. Put aside several hours for the task.
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Read outs Lionair flight & crash FDR
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keesje, is there any FDR printout indicating slat position during that flight. The interest is that slat triggering also depends on AoA and is in the same computational box as MCAS. Furthermore, the mechanism of slat signalling was specifically changed in the Max (electronic?) |
Safetypee, no doubt I don't have it. Graphical quality is low.
Online for hours on a.net now, don't know where it comes from, how long it will remain online. https://i.imgur.com/nlisopA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/HrNWlSQ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PrN5CPO.jpg |
There are some decent, high-resolution copies of those FDR readouts in the Lion Air thread.
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Salute Safety !
Can't find the complete data traces from the Indonesian safety folks that released a few of the data plots, including the preveious flight. Remember that the MCAS alternates AoA data probes with each cycle, so the alt/leading edge flap and other things may bot have been using the AoA probe that was 20 degrees higher than the other one. However, that plot show classic MCAS operation with a bogus high AoA. It also shows the stick shaker going off briefly when the initil MCAS nose down trim kicks in and the plane loses a few hundred feet in a few seconds, back stick forces high and flaps put down again - bet they had enough of a reduced AoA /andor the flap position was a factor for the shaker then, but soon the shaker came back and remained until the end. This should have the data plots and in pdf so you can zoom in. KNKT Beberkan Data FDR Lion Air PK-LQP di DPR Gums sends... |
Stuff is coming out.
In an appearance on CNBC in December, Muilenburg was asked whether the company was doing enough to ensure pilots were properly trained after the October crash. Muilenburg said that the company's bulletin on the software helped in "directing pilots and airlines to these existing procedures" and that Boeing was "taking a look at that to make sure all the appropriate training is in place and that the communications with our customers are there." "It's very, very important to us, but I will say bottom line here, very important, is that the Max 737 is safe," he said. Muilenburg's comments came about a week after the meetings in Texas and Reno, when pilots said they heard similar promises. Sitting around pullout tables in leather-backed chairs, Tajer said, some of the company's top engineers were apologetic. "We said 'shame on you.' They said, 'I know.' " |
So 24 hours after the US grounding, why are there still AA max's still flying around? There are 4 at the moment.
I don't get it. |
Originally Posted by WindSheer
(Post 10418557)
So 24 hours after the US grounding, why are there still AA max's still flying around? There are 4 at the moment.
I don't get it. |
If they've been grounded why are they still flying? These can't all be ferry flights can they?
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https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d2bbcd0f2.jpeg
This has been doing the rounds too. |
Originally Posted by Plane Watcher
(Post 10418573)
If they've been grounded why are they still flying? These can't all be ferry flights can they?
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Originally Posted by kenish
(Post 10418946)
They are all ferry flights.
The mods have, quite understandably, started deleting the posts that have been appearing today querying 737 Max aircraft spotted on the flight trackers. Does anyone seriously believe that airlines would defy the restrictions and carry on flying passengers ? Time to nail this one on the head. |
FOUND JACKSCREW ETHOPIA
2 Attachment(s)
FOUND JACKSCREW . . . :uhoh:
FROM SEATTLE TIMES Investigators find new clue in wreckage of Ethiopian Airlines flight as Boeing continues production of its 737 MAX and works on software patch to get planes back in the air. Investigators on the ground near the crash site of the Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX found the plane’s jackscrew, a part that moves the horizontal tail of the aircraft, and it indicates that the tail was in an unusual position, according to an aviation safety consultant briefed on the findings.The consultant, John Cox, chief executive of Safety Operating Systems and formerly the top safety official for the Air Line Pilots Association, said that Boeing’s new flight control system on the MAX — implicated in the preliminary investigation into the earlier crash of a Lion Air jet in Indonesia — is one of several possible systems that could explain the unusual deflection in the horizontal tail, a control surface that swivels to pitch the plane’s nose up or down. . . .
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...s-boeings-fix/ but here is print of plots released |
Here's the problem at Boeing in their own words! (2 videos)
Boeing: Diversity and Inclusion at Boeing Instead of hiring the best people for the job they're going for "Diversity" and 'Equality" (of outcome). First thing they should do is put a stop to this PC nonsense - then fire those responsible for these Policies imho. |
Originally Posted by Eric Janson
(Post 10419101)
Here's the problem at Boeing in their own words! (2 videos)
Boeing: Diversity and Inclusion at Boeing Instead of hiring the best people for the job they're going for "Diversity" and 'Equality" (of outcome). First thing they should do is put a stop to this PC nonsense - then fire those responsible for these Policies imho. |
JT610 DFDR
Wow. Expected to see activity, but the poor driver is getting RSI on the trim system there. The last minute is just desperately sad to see, however it sure looks like the pilot was cognitively saturated in the event, he was constantly on the trim fighting against the stab augment system, MCAS, but didn't get to the point of isolating the system with the stab cutout on the throttle quadrant. 1. Hidden (not so much...) in the chart there is AND motion automatically occurring with the flaps extended, from 23:22:59 through to 23:24:44, with the AP off the whole time. WTF 2. The AOA probe values show a constant DC offset between L & R, that is not consistent with a AOA failure. The chart may have the indices for the Left and right offset for clarity, but they don't indicate a signal error between the two, there is more or less a constant DC difference between the two values. There is no other way as far as I can recall from my own B735 AMM, that you can get a constant variation between the output, from an faulty vane, it will be jammed, or otherwise inoperative but it doesn't have a constant offset between the two systems. If there is no offset of the indices, then the zero is wrong on one of the vanes. If they are offset, then the issue is not from the AOA vane. What work was done on the aircraft prior to despatch on the AOA system? For current NG Max drivers, is STS still a mode in manual flight on these aircraft? I am current on classics, not the later variants. |
2. The AOA probe values show a constant DC offset between L & R, that is not consistent with a AOA failure, that looks horribly like an installation error. There is no other way as far as I can recall from my own B735 AMM, that you can get a constant variation between the output, from an faulty vane, it will be jammed, or otherwise inoperative but it doesn't have a constant offset between the two systems. What work was done on the aircraft prior to despatch on the AOA system? |
It appears that the Max8 still has the STS system incorporated, which is the short period automatic trim at the latter stage of flap retraction. The report states the previous flight was undertaken immediately after a change of the AOA sensor. The indices of the charting do appear to be the same for L and R AOA, so there was an offset at all times when the vane was responding to flow. That looks like an installation issue, the zero is wrong on the L AOA, otherwise the function appears normal.
The prior flight responded correctly to the use of the cutout switches, and the crew at least did use the trim wheel for the rest of the flight, even if there was a continuous stall warning going on in the background. Not a good way to fly. The MCAS is still a questionable system architecture but the human factor in the handling of this event looks unfortunate. The DFDR for ET302 will be interesting to look at ASAP, as the Max8 may be only part of the problem. |
The bottom line is that Boeing were allowed to certificate an aircraft with unacceptable longitudinal stability with a band-aid to get around loss of pitch authority to counteract the crazy positioning of the engines. No-one but an accountant would design an aircraft that looks like a 737max. The stubby landing gear and low cargo door sills on 737 would not be possible if the engines were positioned such that they didn’t contribute to divergent stall behavior. |
They say those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. we should all re visit the Dhavilland Comet saga. The parallels are truly there between the DH106 and Boeing 737 Max |
Originally Posted by dhavillandpilot
(Post 10419172)
They say those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. we should all re visit the Dhavilland Comet saga. The parallels are truly there between the DH106 and Boeing 737 Max The Max is completely the opposite, it has traded 50 years of 737 maturity and reliability** for a slapdash money-making opportunity. Nothing that the Max investigations have uncovered is unknown or novel for aerodynamic or structural design; it's purely the result of hackish design due to beancounting. It's the McDonnell Philosophy in action; get something out the door to beat the rival. The episode I think it resembles more closely is the DC-10, rushed under pressure to get into the air before the more rationally-designed TriStar. And look what that did to Douglas' reputation. ** Classic rudder actuator issues noted |
Originally Posted by ivor toolbox
(Post 10419346)
And finally, don't believe Flight Radar, they are not infallible, they get 737-800NG and 737-8Max mixed up, as do a lot of spotters.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a3df76ac43.jpg (later corrected) |
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