Originally Posted by Murexway
(Post 10418810)
Don't know if it's true, but I saw an article yesterday saying that Grieg Feith (former NTSB "Mud Stud") mentioned that "the autopilot was still engaged when the aircraft was on its rapid descent, meaning that the pilots were fighting the automation". As an old timer, I can't imagine sitting there below 10,000, watching the throttles go to 100% and the nose dropping to 49 degrees nose low without disconnecting the automation, deploying the spoilers, and pulling for all I'm worth.
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This event was going on for 18 seconds. I would assume that one or both pilots had hold of the yoke.
I can't imagine that either did dot push the A/P disconnect on the yoke. Note: I am assuming there is an A/P disconnect on the yoke as on previous Boeing's. |
Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver
(Post 10418885)
This event was going on for 18 seconds. I would assume that one or both pilots had hold of the yoke.
I can't imagine that either did dot push the A/P disconnect on the yoke. Note: I am assuming there is an A/P disconnect on the yoke as on previous Boeing's. Also, the NTSB release said the throttles went to full power before the pitch over. I also can't imagine not pulling the throttles and speedbrake lever back with the nose pointed down for whatever reason. |
Originally Posted by FCeng84
(Post 10418828)
One of the things that may need to be looked into on this is how the 767 control system responds if the pilot pushes the column while the autopilot is engaged. More recent models recognize pilot intervention via significant controller displacement as time to disconnect the autopilot. On older models the autopilot does not immediately disengage in response to pilot input. There may have been a period of time where both Hal and Row 0 were providing significant control inputs. Learning that the autopilot remained engaged would not necessarily mean that Hal was at fault.
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Originally Posted by svhar
(Post 10418958)
Why the speedbrake lever? I would rather build up speed and altitude until I figured out what happened.
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??????......er....if I’m pointing down at the ground (let alone 49 degrees down) I’m going to close the throttles, pull the speed brake and pull.....probably the only way you’re going to get any chance of gaining altitude......once you’ve arrested the descent..... A4 (10,000+ hrs Airbus) |
Also read that their speed increased from their assigned 230 kts to 430 kts in the descent, and that at impact it was close to 500 kts.
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Originally Posted by A4
(Post 10419015)
??????......er....if I’m pointing down at the ground (let alone 49 degrees down) I’m going to close the throttles, pull the speed brake and pull.....probably the only way you’re going to get any chance of gaining altitude......once you’ve arrested the descent..... A4 (10,000+ hrs Airbus) putting out the speedbrakes increases your load on the airframe even more, increasing the chance of an inflight breakup. |
I see that.....but accelerating towards the barbers pole (and beyond) also isn’t going to be great for structural integrity! Additionally, it’s dependent upon how much altitude you have to play with......from 20,000 it’s no issue......from 5,000....different scenario. Does the 777/787 have load factor protection like the Airbus? At least you can pull to the limit with out risking structural integrity (if the aircraft (Bus) is in Normal Law). The 767 would obviously require a more nuanced approach to handling. A4 |
From around 2000’ and 500 kts it would be pretty much a 3 G pull-up. Moot point though if something is preventing full pitch-up control inputs. |
Deliberate act possible. Examination of pilots' histories needed.
This possible cause should be evaluated in the same way as a technical issue. Methodically and objectively. |
Deliberate act possible. |
Originally Posted by Icelanta
(Post 10419049)
then do not use the speedbrakes but very slowly, increase pitch and convert your energy into climb. putting out the speedbrakes increases your load on the airframe even more, increasing the chance of an inflight breakup. |
Originally Posted by A4
(Post 10419131)
I see that.....but accelerating towards the barbers pole (and beyond) also isn’t going to be great for structural integrity! Additionally, it’s dependent upon how much altitude you have to play with......from 20,000 it’s no issue......from 5,000....different scenario. Does the 777/787 have load factor protection like the Airbus? At least you can pull to the limit with out risking structural integrity (if the aircraft (Bus) is in Normal Law). The 767 would obviously require a more nuanced approach to handling. A4 |
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
(Post 10419437)
Can you explain this statement. How do speedbrakes increases airframe load? In any case I doubt you'd still be accelerating if you're pulling 2g+ as the drag would be significantly higher |
Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver
(Post 10418885)
This event was going on for 18 seconds. I would assume that one or both pilots had hold of the yoke.
I can't imagine that either did dot push the A/P disconnect on the yoke. Note: I am assuming there is an A/P disconnect on the yoke as on previous Boeing's. |
Originally Posted by Running Ridges
(Post 10419482)
They move the lift distribution outboard, so if you're pulling 2g with the speedbrakes out the root bending moment will be higher compared to a 2g manouevre with a clean wing.
In any case I doubt you'd still be accelerating if you're pulling 2g+ as the drag would be significantly higher |
Cornering Speed
Written from a fighter pilot viewpoint. When applying to a transport, there are going to be additional factors to consider such as control hinge moments, wing bending moment, and control system design. (For Airbus FBW, all such decisions have been already made for you.)
With the nose buried downward, and with concern about hitting the ground, you would like to achieve a minimum radius turn, but without tearing the aircraft apart. The minimum radius turn is generally achieved where max AOA and max allowable G meet on the performance curves. You can consider using up some of your safety margin when planning what G level to attain. Then look up the performance curves and determine a cornering velocity based upon your most probable gross weight. Below cornering velocity, you can slightly improve performance by accelerating slightly and pulling into buffet. Above cornering velocity, you must slow down to improve turn performance and meanwhile avoid going beyond your max acceptable G (without a G meter). Knowing your cornering speed is strictly emergency knowledge and would be used solely to ensure you are not completely out of the ballpark in your pull out efforts. No doubt, the test pilots and aerodynamics guys can flesh this out better. As I recall, the F-4 cornering velocity was 420 knots. You definitely will not want to be anywhere near that speed when you pull out in your transport. |
Transport aircraft like the 767 have a reasonably light wing loading relative to fighters. I suspect that at the 230 knots assigned they could generate 3.75G’s. Since there is no where to read G force unless they had recent aerobatic flying that would be very subjective. |
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
(Post 10419525)
At a given AOA the lift the wing can produce is significantly reduced with the speedbrakes out which would unload the wing. If you pulled to a higher AOA to maintain the same G force it may be possible you would shift the bending moment but I doubt it has much impact. The interesting question would be, how the speed brakes influence the cornering radius pulling out of the dive. However, even here they won't make things worse I would guess. |
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