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My sincere apologies tdtracer. I have re-edited my post to correct the attribution. I was a bit tired at the time and obviously screwed that up deluxe!
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A blog post about the jumpseat rider's final flight home:
https://thepilotwifelife.com/the-las...fe-with-honor/ |
About the loud thump heard in the CVR, the following is from the transcript of the Alaska Air crash due to tail plane jackscrew integrity.
1619:36.6 CAM [sound of extremely loud noise] [increase in background noise begins and continues to end of recording] [sound similar to loose articles moving around in cockpit]=left 1619:37 CAM-? *=left 1619:37.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left 1619:43 CAM-2 mayday.=left 1619:49 CAM-1 push and roll, push and roll.=left 1619:54 CAM-1 ok, we are inverted... and now we gotta get it….=left 1619:59 CAM [sound of chime]=left 1620:03 CAM-1 kick *=left 1620:04 CAM-1 push push push... push the blue side up.=left 1620:14 CAM-1 push.=left 1620:14 CAM-2 I'm pushing.=left 1620:16 CAM-1 ok now lets kick rudder... left rudder left rudder.=left 1620:18 CAM-2 I can't reach it.=left 1620:20 CAM-1 ok right rudder... right rudder.=left 1620:25 CAM-1 are we flyin?... we're flyin... we're flyin... tell 'em what we're doin.=left 1620:33 CAM-2 oh yea let me get *=left 1620:35 CAM-1 *=left 1620:38 CAM-1 gotta get it over again... at least upside down we're flyin.=left 1620:40.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left 1620:42 CAM-? *=left 1620:44 CAM-? *=left 1620:49 CAM [sounds similar to compressor stalls begin and continue to end of recording]=left 1620:49 CAM [sound similar to engine spool down]=left 1620:54 CAM-1 speedbrakes.=left 1620:55.1 CAM-2 got it.=left 1620:56.2 CAM-1 ah here we go.=left 1620:57.1 [end of recording] |
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10433603)
A blog post about the jumpseat rider's final flight home:
https://thepilotwifelife.com/the-las...fe-with-honor/ |
Originally Posted by Educated Airman
(Post 10433731)
About the loud thump heard in the CVR, the following is from the transcript of the Alaska Air crash due to tail plane jackscrew integrity.
1619:36.6 CAM [sound of extremely loud noise] [increase in background noise begins and continues to end of recording] [sound similar to loose articles moving around in cockpit]=left 1619:37 CAM-? *=left 1619:37.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left 1619:43 CAM-2 mayday.=left 1619:49 CAM-1 push and roll, push and roll.=left 1619:54 CAM-1 ok, we are inverted... and now we gotta get it….=left 1619:59 CAM [sound of chime]=left 1620:03 CAM-1 kick *=left 1620:04 CAM-1 push push push... push the blue side up.=left 1620:14 CAM-1 push.=left 1620:14 CAM-2 I'm pushing.=left 1620:16 CAM-1 ok now lets kick rudder... left rudder left rudder.=left 1620:18 CAM-2 I can't reach it.=left 1620:20 CAM-1 ok right rudder... right rudder.=left 1620:25 CAM-1 are we flyin?... we're flyin... we're flyin... tell 'em what we're doin.=left 1620:33 CAM-2 oh yea let me get *=left 1620:35 CAM-1 *=left 1620:38 CAM-1 gotta get it over again... at least upside down we're flyin.=left 1620:40.6 PA [sound similar to CVR startup tone]=left 1620:42 CAM-? *=left 1620:44 CAM-? *=left 1620:49 CAM [sounds similar to compressor stalls begin and continue to end of recording]=left 1620:49 CAM [sound similar to engine spool down]=left 1620:54 CAM-1 speedbrakes.=left 1620:55.1 CAM-2 got it.=left 1620:56.2 CAM-1 ah here we go.=left 1620:57.1 [end of recording] No broken jackscrew....details are emerging, no problem with the airplane...wait a bit, much of it is sensitive to the crew and families |
"Thumps" also heard on Egypt Air 990 cvr
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Originally Posted by ironbutt57
(Post 10435286)
No broken jackscrew....details are emerging, no problem with the airplane...wait a bit, much of it is sensitive to the crew and families
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Originally Posted by Educated Airman
(Post 10435870)
My theory is that the jackscrew did not fail, but rather that the fuselage attach hardware for the jackscrew fell out. The picture of the jackscrew shows the hardware missing, not failed structure.
There is not one pin holding everything together. There are multiple pins and bushings with individual retaining devices. |
Originally Posted by Educated Airman
(Post 10435870)
My theory is that the jackscrew did not fail, but rather that the fuselage attach hardware for the jackscrew fell out. The picture of the jackscrew shows the hardware missing, not failed structure.
if this is true, you are wasting your time . |
The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s. |
The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. They hit -4 g’s. |
Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10436362)
The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s. |
So the report is out then? |
Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
(Post 10436519)
So the report is out then? |
Heard same thing too ironbutt but did not hear about the unfastened seatbelt. It seems your self preservation instinct would kick in if you're in weather.
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Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10436362)
The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas.
In the 1995 FedEx 705 hijack attempt Auburn Calloway was unable to check out as aircraft commander in the Navy and had been fired by American and Flying Tigers before he was hired at FedEx. RS, the copilot in the 2003 FedEx 647 MEM MD-10 crash had her ticket pulled a couple of times prior to the mishap due to training deficiencies. She also had other employment challenges including DUI's. CB, captain on the 2013 UPS 1354 crash at BHM had been let go by TWA prior to his 1990 hiring by UPS. He had a history of repeated training failures including open book homestudy exams but was eventually able to upgrade to captain in 2009. On a perhaps related note, freighters continue to crash at a much higher rate than pax aircraft at U.S. carriers. Is this due to less oversight? Or lower standards and a more challenging operating environment? In past years much of the discussion here was focused on the string of mishaps and hull losses at FedEx. As I posted in 2006:
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 2746987)
>>by now FED EX must have one of the worst hull loss records in the industry!
Sadly, FedEx seems to have a widebody hull loss every two or three years. If they were a pax carrier there would be enormous adverse publicity and probably many casualties as well. I've got friends over at FedEx who tell me the FAA has been all over their training for years now. Instead of annual AQP sim checks like most U.S. carriers, they are under a closely monitored old style six month program. The pilot flying in the December 2003 MD-10 hard landing and fire at MEM had a history of busted checkrides before she was hired. In April, 1994 the feds pulled her ATP after an FAA inspector observed her performance. She took more training and got the ATP back and was hired by FedEx in 1996. At FedEx she had more checkride failures, a couple of DUI's and an altitude bust that set up the fateful Mad Dog line check back into MEM. Is it possible that "diversity" was promoted over performance in this case? A possibly similar precedent at FedEx was the overlooked poor employment history of Auburn Calloway who brutally attempted to hijack a FedEx DC-10 in MEM in 1994. Traditionally, FedEx has had very high employment standards for the freight world, i.e. almost all pilots have college degrees (well, there are some Naval Academy graduates <g>) and many are like the founder, Fred Smith, ex-military aviators [I was later corrected on this point, FS was a Marine officer but not an aviator - Airbubba]. The company is consistently profitable and maintenance is excellent by most accounts. Still, the mishaps and hull losses continue at what everyone agrees is an unacceptable rate... |
Originally Posted by ironbutt57
(Post 10436522)
no.....not that I'm aware of...seems 4runner received the same info as myself,..the leaks are getting bigger, so I'm sure something will have to be released shortly...
What I mean to say, is that despite the shocking truth, NOT reporting it is adding more speculation. |
Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10436362)
The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s. |
Airbubba, there is a common thread in your list of accidents. HR departments have taken over Pilot hiring from the Pilots! A friend at UPS was turned down at United because he didn’t perform well on some table top sim evaluation. He was an F-14 Tomcat Pilot in the Navy! The Hogan test has prevented many highly qualified pilots from pursuing a position at many other airlines as well. As far as the quality of freight pilots vice pax..the two highest paid pilot groups in the US are Fed Ex and UPS by far, and if you look at retirement benefits it’s not even in the same galaxy, so I’m pretty sure at least UPS and FedEx have their pick of the litter over the last few years. |
The pilot flying in the December 2003 MD-10 hard landing and fire at MEM had a history of busted checkrides before she was hired. In April, 1994 the feds pulled her ATP after an FAA inspector observed her performance. She took more training and got the ATP back and was hired by FedEx in 1996. At FedEx she had more checkride failures, a couple of DUI's and an altitude bust that set up the fateful Mad Dog line check back into MEM
oh yah, had the displeasure of flying one quick turnaround with this one at a regional airline, what a confrontational, unhappy soul.... |
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10436720)
Will Atlas 3591 turn out to be yet another widebody freighter loss due to 'human factors'? Is a higher accident rate acceptable for cargo planes since the crashes cause 'no significant loss of life'?
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Hiring
Originally Posted by 4runner
(Post 10436362)
The “thump” was the Jumpseater bouncing off the ceiling. The FO had a history of doing this. He was terminated from a previous airline according to a very reliable source. HR is in charge of all pilot hiring at atlas. They hit -4 g’s. |
Man, that’s an insanely naïve viewpoint. In general, HR bring the candidates to interview. And no one really knows how hard up some of these companies really are. There is tremendous pressure to get meat into seats these days at various companies, IMO. |
Right after the ethnicity of the first officer became public... all the rumors started blaming him.
Not only his poor skills that are verified by a RELIABLE source. Also the blaming of minorities being forced into the cockpit by HR departments because of "diversity" The racist comments are across many aviation sites. This attitude is not being addressed and is never going to get better until these people are the ones finding themselves on the street and have no job offers AND are not welcome on websites either. |
HR rules, k o?
Originally Posted by Chiefttp
(Post 10437057)
Airbubba, there is a common thread in your list of accidents. HR departments have taken over Pilot hiring from the Pilots! A friend at UPS was turned down at United because he didn’t perform well on some table top sim evaluation. He was an F-14 Tomcat Pilot in the Navy! The Hogan test has prevented many highly qualified pilots from pursuing a position at many other airlines as well. As far as the quality of freight pilots vice pax..the two highest paid pilot groups in the US are Fed Ex and UPS by far, and if you look at retirement benefits it’s not even in the same galaxy, so I’m pretty sure at least UPS and FedEx have their pick of the litter over the last few years. I know of at least several ex-XL candidates who were OK'd by pilot interviewers but jettisoned by this totally unsuitable selection tool. And yes, I was one and following the shabby treatment of a colleague who did get employed by them I'm glad the fickle finger of fate moved me in another direction! |
HR-driven pilot selection is a mistake. The numpties at BA prove this time after time, but BA is not alone.
Apart from the inadequacies of HR people in understanding the requirements of the pilot profession, they in part select on a quota basis as regards gender, race, and other parameters. I recall an experienced A320/321 SFO who was LHR-based being turned down at interview by BA as "not enthusiastic enough about joining BA". (His career went well nevertheless) |
Originally Posted by neilki
(Post 10437148)
I can speak with personal experience about the hiring process at Atlas. The HR folks are very efficient and present in most of the Interview stages; but they use a number of retired and line pilots in the process; and they are highly experienced and very involved. I cannot imagine Atlas HR overruling a pilots' concerns about a candidates capabilities. The interview process there is very well run indeed.
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Originally Posted by 413X3
(Post 10437322)
Right after the ethnicity of the first officer became public... all the rumors started blaming him.
Not only his poor skills that are verified by a RELIABLE source. Also the blaming of minorities being forced into the cockpit by HR departments because of "diversity" The racist comments are across many aviation sites. This attitude is not being addressed and is never going to get better until these people are the ones finding themselves on the street and have no job offers AND are not welcome on websites either. |
Originally Posted by AviatorDave
(Post 10437031)
A hstory of doing what exactly? Losing orientation and messing up beyond acceptable level or of being a jerk and pushing the column to make jumpseaters hit the ceiling? |
high altitude one may in fact have to input full forward controls to break the AOA, but most certainly not down where they were
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Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK
(Post 10437193)
Man, that’s an insanely naïve viewpoint. In general, HR bring the candidates to interview. And no one really knows how hard up some of these companies really are. There is tremendous pressure to get meat into seats these days at various companies, IMO. |
First guess was incorrectly presumed to be a Stall, followed by bizarre recovery. Tragic, incredibly sad. It is all about the training. Assembly line training using FO’s with only a few individuals actually capable of insightful training is now industry standard. Any commentary segueing into talk of ethnicity or slamming of HR is precisely the issue with all that is wrong with the industry. Legacy carriers try to give every applicant a shot. They understand that bias is real. They have fairly balanced diverse workforce’s for decades. If reputation is true, Atlas has not until recently. On the street they have long been known as white man’s world. Expat’s tell tales of racism, sexism always involving specific CP & DO. Competent minority pilots want nothing to do with the place. Sounds like HR had to step in when incidents of bias, assaults, bigotry got out of hand. That is logical enough conclusion. Also the Union clearly has a role in identifying bias issues. They should just get rid of the bad apples in top management that tolerate this conduct and fix the training. If this FO had a history of misidentifying stalls, training failed him badly. This certainly wouldnt be the first time on the cheap training would be at fault. |
How hard can it be to identify a stall ?
AD shows nose high Airspeed decaying Buffet ASI unwinding Nose drops unless there are excessive control inputs All basic training stuff in a Cessna. How many more clues do you want ? |
Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek
(Post 10437695)
How hard can it be to identify a stall ?
AD shows nose high Airspeed decaying Buffet ASI unwinding Nose drops unless there are excessive control inputs All basic training stuff in a Cessna. How many more clues do you want ? This is not a Cessna. Human factors - an FO that didnt let go of the stick. Bad. |
Originally Posted by Stby4Higher
(Post 10437663)
Competent minority pilots want nothing to do with the place. If this FO had a history of misidentifying stalls, training failed him badly. This certainly wouldnt be the first time on the cheap training would be at fault. 2 Atlas has increased training sessions and gone out of the way to help struggling students. They started giving students a session of just landings... I never got that. I did, however, always have a healthy fear of failing and not making the grade. |
You guys apparently know something about the ethnic background of the FO...why is it relevant? Where do you guys get this info? Is the HR dept applying affirmative action? Why doesn’t the ntsb publish something 35+ days after the accident? Is the fbi involved? Is that the reason? |
Just a question..... Would/could Boeing put pressure on the NTSB to delay release of information on this accident due to other pending investigations?
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Originally Posted by 413X3
(Post 10437322)
Right after the ethnicity of the first officer became public... all the rumors started blaming him.
Not only his poor skills that are verified by a RELIABLE source. Also the blaming of minorities being forced into the cockpit by HR departments because of "diversity" The racist comments are across many aviation sites. This attitude is not being addressed and is never going to get better until these people are the ones finding themselves on the street and have no job offers AND are not welcome on websites either. |
Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver
(Post 10437860)
Just a question..... Would/could Boeing put pressure on the NTSB to delay release of information on this accident due to other pending investigations?
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Does the rumor mill indicate that the FO was the PF? |
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