BHX ATC Down
BBC reporting BHX air traffic notam indicating airfield closed until at least 2200 today
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Originally Posted by Prangster
(Post 10343141)
BBC reporting BHX air traffic notam indicating airfield closed until at least 2200 today
B) 18/12/23 18:44 C) 18/12/23 22:00 E) ALL BIRMINGHAM ATC SERVICE IS SUSPENDED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE DUE TO A SYSTEM FAILURE. DELAY NOT DETERMINED. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-46668635 Several flights already diverted to EMA, MAN and LHR whilst the LH FRA flight has gone back to FRA..:ooh: |
And now re-open at 1940
EK A380 was on its way to MAN is turning back as is a FlyBe Dash 8 which was going to EMA |
Originally Posted by Suzeman
(Post 10343162)
And now re-open at 1940
EK A380 was on its way to MAN is turning back as is a FlyBe Dash 8 which was going to EMA |
So could be shorter - or longer. Electronic Flight Plan system is down according to the Beeb |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10343219)
That's progress for you....
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What I don’t get is why you need the flight planning computer to let aircraft land? They were stacked in the hold anyway, just do it all procedurally. What do you need a flight planning computer for? At that time last night it was practically VFR conditions anyway. |
Many ATCOs no longer validated on procedural approaches. Some SOPs forbid night visual approaches
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Originally Posted by Jonty
(Post 10343458)
What I don’t get is why you need the flight planning computer to let aircraft land? They were stacked in the hold anyway, just do it all procedurally. What do you need a flight planning computer for? At that time last night it was practically VFR conditions anyway. Nobody said there was any sort of radar failure. |
Is this the ATC version of 'loss of basic stick and rudder skills' that some (OK, mainly older) pilots are concerned about? |
What with this and drones that might, or might not, be somewhere...
The UK is getting to the stage where we can't survive in the wild! We are now having to hold risk assessment meetings to see if it's safe to make a risk assessment. We insure our insurance policies. No-one feels confident to make a common sense decision, for fear of breaking a rule that might be there, or not. One of these days we're going to run a round in such tight circles that we're going to disappear up you know where. |
Jonty, I was thinking the same thing , but I already knew the answer: Controllers can't control and pilots can't fly anymore without the aid of modern technology. It's a fact of life, but the cost of maintaining steam powered proficiency for these once in a million glitches is not financially viable.
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
(Post 10343628)
Jonty, I was thinking the same thing , but I already knew the answer: Controllers can't control and pilots can't fly anymore without the aid of modern technology. It's a fact of life, but the cost of maintaining steam powered proficiency for these once in a million glitches is not financially viable.
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I think all the inconvenienced passengers might disagree with that. |
Originally Posted by tmmorris
(Post 10343617)
Is this the ATC version of 'loss of basic stick and rudder skills' that some (OK, mainly older) pilots are concerned about? |
Once in a million glitches.. or twice in a year like in BHX's case...
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FFS - what happened to telephone calls from the centre to the airfield and then giving a radar handover? I'll ask Swanwick ATCO son and D-I-L when they arrive in half an hour!!
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Originally Posted by The Fat Controller
(Post 10343511)
I think you'll find that ALL flight data was lost, so they would neither know what was coming or be able pass data to the relevant ATC centre for departures.
Nobody said there was any sort of radar failure. I am yet to understand why aircraft holding with in range of the airport couldn’t go on to land. At worst you would release one from the hold to self position and fly the ILS, once landed you release the next one. The go around keeps aircraft well clear of the holding stack. One wonders how aircraft fly without ATC?!? |
If the ATCOs have lost flight data, that will likely include their electronic strips, which will include all the aircraft on the airfield that have started and are moving, recovering that situation will mean a complete stop on new movements.
Recovery from that will take time, reversion to hand written strips is only possible if you have the data to hand AND there is provision for it. Data transfer at large airfields, both in and out is electronic, you cannot magic a EGBB inbound coordinator out of the air at Swanwick or Prestwick centres, there are just not the staff or procedures to do it. If EGBB called a stop, they did so for very good reasons. |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10343627)
What with this and drones that might, or might not, be somewhere...
The UK is getting to the stage where we can't survive in the wild! We are now having to hold risk assessment meetings to see if it's safe to make a risk assessment. We insure our insurance policies. No-one feels confident to make a common sense decision, for fear of breaking a rule that might be there, or not. One of these days we're going to run a round in such tight circles that we're going to disappear up you know where. |
In most situations I would agree with you, and ATC do a very good job. But in this situation I have to disagree with you. Ok, you can’t let aircraft get airborne in those circumstances, but diverting aircraft already on their way in is a step too far.
Aircraft don’t need ATC to fly, they don’t need ATC flight data, they don’t need their electronic strips. Last night, in those circumstances the only people that needed any of that were ATC. What they failed to realise was that those aircraft didn’t need ATC. You imply that by losing their electronic strips the ATCOs suddenly lose all situational awareness, what happened to looking out of the window? If if a pilot can’t navigate from the GROVE hold to the start of the 15 ILS without instantly crashing into another aircraft or falling out of the sky then one wonders what aviation has come to. You say say that they called stop for a very good reason, I’m sure they did. However, those reasons had everything to do with ATC and nothing to do with safely flying an aircraft. |
Jonty, you're getting way out of your depth now. If there are no written procedures for such eventualities, controllers cannot just go ahead and basically make them up as they go. Just imagine the legal implications, not to mention the public outcry, if something went pear shape which resulted in a mid air right over the city of Birmingham (seeing as 15 was in use apparently)! If the system is out and no procedural back-up exists, diversion is the only safe and legal option.
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
(Post 10343635)
Until they saw what it would do to the price of their tickets!!! Who do you think would pay for it, Father Christmas!
It seems that you are saying that once an ATC unit transfers to electronic strips there is no going back and no back up. |
@Jonty, you are wrong, commercial aircraft require a properly licenced airfield for insurance reasons and that will include the provision of ATC and fire cover.
@ShyTorque, where I worked, there was a manual backup, failures required a "stop" at first and a gradual recovery as we reverted to pen and paper. Merry Christmas to you all. |
Electronic strips allowed most support staff to be laid off. Reversion to manual with nobody available to manually recieve and process the the data would be a bit tricky. |
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Strange times we live and fly in.
Aircraft are mandated to have duplicated / standby systems or manual reversion. As pilots we have to be able to fly manually if the autopilot fails. We also have to be able to revert to other means of getting from A to B and landing if our primary navigation aids fail, even stop watch and compass dead reckoning. Any failure in an aircraft (and like anything mechanical, electrical or electronic things do fail) is likely to affect just that one aircraft. Yet a critical ATC main system, which if it does fail, affects all aircraft under its supervision, doesn't have any manual backup? Crazy. |
Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
(Post 10343986)
Jonty, you're getting way out of your depth now. If there are no written procedures for such eventualities, controllers cannot just go ahead and basically make them up as they go. Just imagine the legal implications, not to mention the public outcry, if something went pear shape which resulted in a mid air right over the city of Birmingham (seeing as 15 was in use apparently)! If the system is out and no procedural back-up exists, diversion is the only safe and legal option.
This is an airport and possibly a NATS UK Ltd failure to be able to cope with a relatively trivial non-nominal occurrence. |
Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
(Post 10343986)
Jonty, you're getting way out of your depth now. If there are no written procedures for such eventualities, controllers cannot just go ahead and basically make them up as they go. Just imagine the legal implications, not to mention the public outcry, if something went pear shape which resulted in a mid air right over the city of Birmingham (seeing as 15 was in use apparently)! If the system is out and no procedural back-up exists, diversion is the only safe and legal option.
Ian W has got it spot on, and it’s a disgrace. Birmingham ATC should be sent the bill. |
I’m afraid I’m with Jonty on this one. There was radar, aircraft were easily identifiable and separable - who gives a **** about a flight plan or not? Supposing the systems in the whole UK went down; what are we supposed to do, stay in the air indefinitely until it’s sorted?
You get better service in darkest Africa... |
I wish to complain about the inaccurate cartoon posted above.
That would never be allowed. I'm talking of course about the cleaning lady being able to smoke in the VCR.:eek: |
EGBB ATC is NOT provided by NATS.
Nobody who works at EGBB has confirmed whether the code/callsign database for the radar was still available, they could easily have lost ALL flight data, we just do not know. The safest option is to handle what you already have and not accept any more traffic until the contingency is in place. |
Nobody who works at EGBB has confirmed whether the code/callsign database for the radar was still available, they could easily have lost ALL flight data, we just do not know. Why would there be a midair over Birmingham? The radar hadn’t failed. where I worked, there was a manual backup, failures required a "stop" at first and a gradual recovery as we reverted to pen and paper. Really. Well, their already getting screwed by all other sorts of climate gubbins, I guess actually getting to their destination for another fiver would be seen as a BONUS! |
Interesting how the guys in Anchorage were able to provide ATC services from a pickup truck parked at the edge of a runway after their control tower had to be abandoned due to the earthquake......... |
A few years ago BHX tower had such an exercise:
"Birmingham tower is evacuated, all stations monitor tower frequency, procedural arrivals and departures in place." Was great fun that night, but only a practice... |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10344211)
Yet a critical ATC main system, which if it does fail, affects all aircraft under its supervision, doesn't have any manual backup?
Crazy. Aircraft could fly to a different FIR though. |
Fat Controller.
You are ever so wrong . There is no ATC required for Commercial operation into an airfield. How do you operate into half or more of the no radar, no control zone fields allover the world? Its called AFIS units ,Unicom, Company Fq etc. Yes they have to have basic Fire and rescue services. What is required in the UK now that could be much different, indeed. |
Hotel Tango
Sir Can You google TCAS for me! And then stop posting such rubbish. MidAir over the city, come on Dude!! |
Even if the BHX radar was down I don't get what the big issue is. I arrive via a IFR radar service through a NATS high level controller and get cleared to the hold. Contact the BHX controller with who I am and the latest ATIS, aircraft type etc and then we shuttle down in the hold until we reach the bottom and shoot an approach. Call fully established and get given a DME to position report so the next one can do the same behind me. Tower can look out the window and see me coming and clear me to land. They can increase the separation to allow for a departure inbetween and the climbing traffic will pick up their radar service once airborne on the SID.
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For some reason two airports have been shut at short notice on grounds which seem questionable. Has somebody lost a Stinger? WWW |
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