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-   -   BHX ATC Down (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/616599-bhx-atc-down.html)

Prangster 23rd Dec 2018 19:23

BHX ATC Down
 
BBC reporting BHX air traffic notam indicating airfield closed until at least 2200 today

Suzeman 23rd Dec 2018 19:31


Originally Posted by Prangster (Post 10343141)
BBC reporting BHX air traffic notam indicating airfield closed until at least 2200 today

NOTAM is valid until 2200 but the wording says


B) 18/12/23 18:44 C) 18/12/23 22:00 E) ALL BIRMINGHAM ATC SERVICE IS SUSPENDED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE DUE TO A SYSTEM FAILURE. DELAY NOT DETERMINED.
So could be shorter - or longer. Electronic Flight Plan system is down according to the Beeb
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-46668635

Several flights already diverted to EMA, MAN and LHR whilst the LH FRA flight has gone back to FRA..:ooh:

Suzeman 23rd Dec 2018 19:42

And now re-open at 1940

EK A380 was on its way to MAN is turning back as is a FlyBe Dash 8 which was going to EMA

shamu28 23rd Dec 2018 20:40


Originally Posted by Suzeman (Post 10343162)
And now re-open at 1940

EK A380 was on its way to MAN is turning back as is a FlyBe Dash 8 which was going to EMA

folk delayed 3 hours sat on the runway! apparently according to one of our daily newspapers! lol

ShyTorque 23rd Dec 2018 21:15


So could be shorter - or longer. Electronic Flight Plan system is down according to the Beeb
That's progress for you....

Carbon Bootprint 24th Dec 2018 02:44


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 10343219)
That's progress for you....

Yep, when tech goes sideways it can make one yearn for the "no batteries required" approach of years gone by...

Jonty 24th Dec 2018 07:47

What I don’t get is why you need the flight planning computer to let aircraft land?
They were stacked in the hold anyway, just do it all procedurally. What do you need a flight planning computer for?
At that time last night it was practically VFR conditions anyway.

22/04 24th Dec 2018 08:48

Many ATCOs no longer validated on procedural approaches. Some SOPs forbid night visual approaches

The Fat Controller 24th Dec 2018 09:00


Originally Posted by Jonty (Post 10343458)
What I donít get is why you need the flight planning computer to let aircraft land?
They were stacked in the hold anyway, just do it all procedurally. What do you need a flight planning computer for?
At that time last night it was practically VFR conditions anyway.

I think you'll find that ALL flight data was lost, so they would neither know what was coming or be able pass data to the relevant ATC centre for departures.

Nobody said there was any sort of radar failure.

tmmorris 24th Dec 2018 11:58

Is this the ATC version of 'loss of basic stick and rudder skills' that some (OK, mainly older) pilots are concerned about?

ShyTorque 24th Dec 2018 12:11

What with this and drones that might, or might not, be somewhere...

The UK is getting to the stage where we can't survive in the wild! We are now having to hold risk assessment meetings to see if it's safe to make a risk assessment. We insure our insurance policies. No-one feels confident to make a common sense decision, for fear of breaking a rule that might be there, or not.

One of these days we're going to run a round in such tight circles that we're going to disappear up you know where.

Hotel Tango 24th Dec 2018 12:11

Jonty, I was thinking the same thing , but I already knew the answer: Controllers can't control and pilots can't fly anymore without the aid of modern technology. It's a fact of life, but the cost of maintaining steam powered proficiency for these once in a million glitches is not financially viable.

ShyTorque 24th Dec 2018 12:13


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 10343628)
Jonty, I was thinking the same thing , but I already knew the answer: Controllers can't control and pilots can't fly anymore without the aid of modern technology. It's a fact of life, but the cost of maintaining steam powered proficiency for these once in a million glitches is not financially viable.

I think all the inconvenienced passengers might disagree with that.

Hotel Tango 24th Dec 2018 12:15


I think all the inconvenienced passengers might disagree with that.
Until they saw what it would do to the price of their tickets!!! Who do you think would pay for it, Father Christmas!

The Many Tentacles 24th Dec 2018 12:56


Originally Posted by tmmorris (Post 10343617)
Is this the ATC version of 'loss of basic stick and rudder skills' that some (OK, mainly older) pilots are concerned about?

Air traffic has changed so much since the days of being able to do things procedurally that it would be impossible to do it with the current levels of traffic we have in the UK. Those basic skills aren't trained anymore as there's no point having them

mike current 24th Dec 2018 12:56

Once in a million glitches.. or twice in a year like in BHX's case...

Brian 48nav 24th Dec 2018 13:00

FFS - what happened to telephone calls from the centre to the airfield and then giving a radar handover? I'll ask Swanwick ATCO son and D-I-L when they arrive in half an hour!!

Jonty 24th Dec 2018 13:10


Originally Posted by The Fat Controller (Post 10343511)
I think you'll find that ALL flight data was lost, so they would neither know what was coming or be able pass data to the relevant ATC centre for departures.

Nobody said there was any sort of radar failure.

that doesnít explain inbounds. How much flight data do you need to allow an aircraft shoot an ILS?

I am yet to understand why aircraft holding with in range of the airport couldnít go on to land. At worst you would release one from the hold to self position and fly the ILS, once landed you release the next one. The go around keeps aircraft well clear of the holding stack. One wonders how aircraft fly without ATC?!?

The Fat Controller 24th Dec 2018 17:20

If the ATCOs have lost flight data, that will likely include their electronic strips, which will include all the aircraft on the airfield that have started and are moving, recovering that situation will mean a complete stop on new movements.
Recovery from that will take time, reversion to hand written strips is only possible if you have the data to hand AND there is provision for it.
Data transfer at large airfields, both in and out is electronic, you cannot magic a EGBB inbound coordinator out of the air at Swanwick or Prestwick centres, there are just not the staff or procedures to do it.
If EGBB called a stop, they did so for very good reasons.

Phantom Driver 24th Dec 2018 21:25


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 10343627)
What with this and drones that might, or might not, be somewhere...

The UK is getting to the stage where we can't survive in the wild! We are now having to hold risk assessment meetings to see if it's safe to make a risk assessment. We insure our insurance policies. No-one feels confident to make a common sense decision, for fear of breaking a rule that might be there, or not.

One of these days we're going to run a round in such tight circles that we're going to disappear up you know where.

You have hit the nail right on the head


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