|
Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in
Sorry if this is the wrong place.
Interesting that ATC scolds a pilot for something like this - pilot stuck to his guns at least. Do NY ATC (and the US?) have wx radars? |
Doppler radar overlaid on their radar screens as far as I know. Still crew has got to play the cards they are dealt and if the WX radar is showing a build up then they have to follow their guts. Also depends who is ahead that you are "following" on the departures. Lots of cowboys out there so just because the pack headed out on the same track doesn't make it the safest course of action.
|
I was fourth or fifth in line over a mountainous route in IMC with the concern being potential for icing. Everyone else got through ok but I got clobbered and had to turn around (the airplane had no de-ice equipment, nor did the others in front of me) and descend below MEA for a period to keep from stalling. It was the worst ice I had ever seen. So, just because the others got through ok is no guarantee that you will...
|
Going into the East Coast, we recently got distracted by some very dramatic weather returns on the radar of our brand new plane. Although it was raining pretty solid with reduced vis, we could see the coast line and plenty of aircraft were going through the same areas. WX radar increasingly outputting garbage. No amount of manual mode playing got rid of the colours. The old ones were better.
|
What an embarassment. Tough job in New York, but no excuse for that display of crap. Sometimes tracon forgets why they're there.
|
He'd never validate in London Terminal Control...
|
The controller seems to have forgotten who has the final authority over the disposition of the aircraft. Fake returns or not, if you are not 100% sure, you just go around it. And if some cowboy is happy to fly through red/magenta returns, that doesn't mean everybody else has to as well.
|
It would be interesting to see what controllers have to say. I guess this’ll end up in ATC forum. At first listen I am with the Shamrock. |
Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.
End of. |
ATC, despite the "C" standing for control, is, ultimately an advisory service. It is the responsibility of the PIC to get the aircraft safely between A & B, and to take whatever measures he or she sees fit in order to do that. Of course non standard actions need to be justified but it is important to remember that the air traffic service is there to assist the pilot, not the other way around. If controllers are unhappy with the restrictions in airspace then they need to address their superiors and not get short with the flightcrew.
|
I have often found some of NYC ATC to be abrasive and overly confrontational. I don’t get the bit from the controller where he says “you got yourself into this”. Departed off 22R followed by the controller giving him 120deg left turn which the Commander declined. I have a fair idea what Mrs Brown would say to the controller........... that’s nice. [img]webkit-fake-url://23015472-f42a-4c4c-a20a-efd6ace620fa/imagejpeg[/img] |
ATC?
Air Traffic Control , sounds more like Out Of Control to me.
Unusual attitude for ATC. Unable to recover! Needs retraining. ATS is there for me ,not the other way around. Services being the word. , |
Originally Posted by wtsmg
(Post 10205174)
Aggressive and arrogant.
I bet the lads wrote the ASR on the way home. The controller needs a reality check. |
The controller had no intention of writing a report until the crew brought up to expect a phone call. |
As I unterderstood it, the crew wanted to write a report, not the controller...
|
As my son would say, "that controller is messed-up, Dad."
|
Some years ago I was cleared for takeoff (757) after a 747 at JFK, the controller was not satisfied when I did not start the takeoff roll 30 seconds after the 747 rotated and told me the next time when I was in New York I should advise the tower if I was not ready. This was a few weeks before the AA 587 lost its vertical stabilizer due to wake turbulence. 2 minutes after a heavy our SOP said. I did just that. I did not respond when he told me to change to departure and wished me a nice flight.
|
Would be interesting to hear a NY TRACON controller's view of this. There might be another side of the story that European pilots are unaware of. It's a commander's prerogative to choose the route of flight of course. But when things are heated, as they were, you better be avoiding for good reason. No "for comfort". Buckle up!
The video is a good click bait, but we can't reality tell what was going on in the involved parties' heads. |
The video is a good click bait, but we can't reality tell what was going on in the involved parties' heads. While not casting aspersions on Shamrock, I have to say that what you see on the radar often depends on your technique ; "auto gain" on modern radars can paint a dire picture when compared to when you play with manual gain/tilt . I have seen guys deviating when there was very little showing on our radar , or looking out of the window , even at night . (Old adage -" one peep is worth a thousand sweeps ".) Bottom line though --Shamrock Commanders decision is final ..Just a pity he got upset at having to orbit over JFK to fit in with traffic . That airspace gets kinda busy , especially when there is weather around.... |
A couple of points: Firstly, modern airborne radar have Turbulence mode as well as weather (WX+T). This is real time information that is not available on a controller’s overlay. The rainfall intensity doesn’t necessarily have to be red for there to be sufficient vertical velocity to indicate turbulence (magenta) on the flight crew’s display. Further, with convective weather, the suituation can change very quickly. The preceding aircraft may very well have not had any adverse indications at the time. It’s very inappropriate for the controller to suggest that since the others went through it, you should too! You only need to look at the Delta 191 accident at DFW. The light jet that flew through the same cell just moments prior to DAL191 reported a smooth ride.. My 2 cents. |
Controller here (not in the US). I don’t have any weather overlay on my screen, I rely on pilots telling me what they need to remain clear in order to provide safe clearances that flight crew are willing to follow. Fair play to Shamrock crew saying no to a clearance they weren’t happy with. They do look like “punishment vectors” to me, but even if we take the controller at his word that he needs to hold Shamrock to co-ordinate an alternative routing, the controller’s immediate jump to angry lecture in response to a perfectly reasonable “unable” from the crew seems very unprofessional. |
I’ve had similar there when avoiding wx, they couldn’t detect. just sums up NY and NY ATC. Rude aggressive, confrontational. i have to tell the new FOs to stand their ground and not be bulldozed by this lot . |
@svhar, the AA587 accident was caused by the inappropriate actions of a pilot to the wake turbulence event.
He stomped on the rudder pedals to such an extent that the sideways load exceeded the limits of the vertical stabiliser attachments. As for this little ATC/Pilot dialogue, these things happen, but as an ex ATC, I'll side with the Irish this time. |
Pathetic controlling, NY ATC should compensate Air Lingus for the wasted vectors costing fuel. ridiculous |
The comment “ you got yourself into this” was unprofessional. That’s that. One party was professional, the other party was unprofessional. Simple. |
Originally Posted by 73qanda
(Post 10205577)
The comment “ you got yourself into this” was unprofessional. That’s that. One party was professional, the other party was unprofessional. Simple. |
I listen to the NY TRACON quite a lot and this guy is very hectic and not always professional. I understand the workload and all that, but still, you have to keep your cool and be professional in a hostile environment like that.
This controller doesn't represent the TRACON as a whole, there are many good controllers over there! |
I have flown into and out of JFK quite a bit and generally the controllers do a good job of moving a lot of aircraft without delays. This controller was probably limited with the options available to him due airspace restrictions. However the controller says "you're gonna turn right to a heading of 080" which is confusing because he should either say "turn right now heading 080" or I will be turning you shortly to 080". Not surprisingly the Shamrock queries whether he has to turn to which the controller replies "You have to follow to Greki that is right underneath you" . That response is of no help at all so it is no surprise that the Shamrock pilot yet again has to query the instruction and the controller then gives an intelligible reply.
I have no doubt the controller could have been clearer but I have sympathy for both sides as the controller might have just been trying to fit him in with subsequent departures and the controller's instructions may not have been as penal as they came across as. To me the controller is stressed due to the pressure of his job and not directly angry with the pilot. |
I’ll be the devils advocate and side with the controller. This is JFK and you’re completely messing up his flow. Other headings would have been possible. Negotiate before you pick a fight. Turn 080 Unable how about 120? Turn 120 Problem solved. |
6 of one and half a dozen of the other. but if the weather was that bad I’d be tempted to stop all departures or at least put a big MDI on. i appreciate the ‘captain is ultimate authority’ and ‘tale wagging the dog’ type responses above but it’s not just about the one aircraft, it’s the sector, the airfield, even the whole network and there is a small but significant section of the pilot community that think they can take any weather avoidance without a significant knock on effect to their colleagues. I’m not saying that’s what happened here but when say, one out of five aircraft avoid while the other four (in front and behind) fly straight through, it does make me sorry there isn’t more standard pilot training for weather avoidance. It would make a huge difference to weather delays and flight safety. |
Delprado, Delta flight 191 of 1985 showed that convective weather that was traversable by the preceding aircraft rapidly became deadly for a wide body three miles in trail. Assuming that it is acceptable because some aircraft had flown the route, and we do not know how long before that was, is not a good strategy when there is significant convective weather.The US NWS give the life cycle of a thunderstorm as thirty minutes. The previous aircraft may have seen it whilst it was still building as cummulus, and not the weather shamrock saw. I believe that a groundstop was put in place after the event. |
"Standard pilot training for weather avoidance". How do you account for the variations in radar equipment and what they show. Experience is a huge factor as well. Reading a radar display has a lot of subleties.
Maybe lets start with some standardized atc around the world. If the SID is runway heading, and you require a 90 degree turn off of that through an area of weather, maybe a heads up through the tower to your departures. We're not mind readers, and when you point us at an area of weather with no advance warning, then a cautious man should hesitate. Maybe the previous 5 went through and regretted it. I know I've done that in the past. Lived to tell the tale. Yelling won't fix your mistakes, and creates an unsafe scenario. |
Originally Posted by UNIFO
(Post 10205858)
Point of view from an ATCO working in a very restrictive airspace: If all other planes (preceding + following) can route along a particular path, I will tell the pilot everyone else has taken the heading except you.
|
Whenever WX avoidance gets discussed a lot of the pilot community view their right to weather avoid as sacrosanct and purely a matter of extreme flight safety. However there are a (small but significant) group of pilots that want to avoid the slightest bump for passenger comfort. When the sector is quiet I’ll do my upmost to accommodate that but in my experience pilots still ask for the ‘comfort’ avoidance when it’s too busy. As someone said above, it’s a matter of experience, and that’s also true from the ATC side. It’s pretty easy to judge (to a high degree of certainty) what requests are for comfort and what ones are for safety with a little experience and I don’t think the requests are always made with enough consideration to business of sector or consequences to the network and therefore delays to other flights. And I’m not having a go at the pilots in this incident with those comments. As for standardising training for pilots, I’ve had three aircraft on top of each other 1000’ apart approaching weather. One requests left 10, the next 15 right and the third says nothing. Surely it’s best to all do the same thing, even if in the captain’s view it’s the less good (2nd) option? Standardisation of RT requests would help too. ”Request 10 Right/Left for weather.” Is great. ”there’s a little bit of a build up about 8 miles ahead, will you be turning us before then? And if not could we have 10 right now otherwise we’ll have to go 25 left and round it from the other side?” Add in the callsign and the ums and ahs and each aircraft on the frequency has moved the best part of a mile in the time taken to say all that. At best that’s the spacing missed, possibly another aircraft is 1 mile closer to his weather or I’m a mile late in giving avoiding action because someone has turned without asking/telling. I’m sure there are many more examples but then the vast majority of pilots reading are already very good at this stuff, it’s just that it’s not trickling down and a bit more training and standardisation could help us all. |
https://jetcareers.com/forums/thread...2#post-2801516 Input from a colleague of the controller in question. In my opinion, the controller could've handled it a bit better, and the pilot couldn't realistically expect to fly runway heading for 15 miles in NYC. |
Even in busy NYC airspace if an avoid for weather is needed, in the opinion of the aircraft commander, then a deviation is required. ATC here were maxed out and were annoyed that his plan did not match the view of the person legally responsible for the safe conduct of the flight and the lives of those onboard. Pilots do know that weather avoids make ATC work harder so don’t tend to ask for them “just because”. I have sat at the end of the runway looking at a massive cell 2miles off the end of the runway and declined to depart. A local lo co did depart with an immediate sharp turn, he avoided the weather. I was not prepared to risk the lives of my passengers in a wide body, he was in his 737. We were both correct and ATC can go hang if they disagree - it’s not their lives on the line. ATC here were out of order and need to rethink - but we can all get like that when we are up to arse in alligators. Maybe a little review and rethinking is required - nobody needs the atttude. The end result was safe, ATC got stressed as they ran out out capacity, it’s not the end of the world, we are all human. |
Overall I give the NY controllers a good grade. Like Shamrock they have gotten pissed off with me not accepting a heading with rapidly developing weather. I just tell them unable offer a suggested heading but both times issued holding. As the PIC I am not flying into a level 5 cell even if its low level crap.
|
There is a lot of truth in what Del Prado has to say. |
"As for standardising training for pilots, I’ve had three aircraft on top of each other 1000’ apart approaching weather. One requests left 10, the next 15 right and the third says nothing. Surely it’s best to all do the same thing, even if in the captain’s view it’s the less good (2nd) option?"
Standard training for pilots for weather would be fine if there was standard weather. It does't work like that. Cells shapes are often very irregular and very dynamic in that they can grow rapidly, in different directions, right in front of your eyes. Interpreting these shapes visually can lead to different decisions and this can all happen quickly. You can fly through a 40,000' CB without a ripple and get absolutely battered by an 8,000' cell. Equally you can make a judgment call, with the best intentions and need to change it a minute later. The following video is obviously not in real time but you can get the idea why sequential flights might want different courses: https://www.videoblocks.com/video/to...er-day-aqbcnje In an ideal world pilots would be able to make early decisions and pass these promptly to ATC and everyone could come up with a timely, workable, agreed plan. But there are days where that just doesn't work. Regarding the weather radar, manufacturers and subsequently many aviation authorities overestimate the accuracy of their products. While they are very useful tools, and they have improved slowly over the years, they should not be relied upon exclusively. The resolution used for aviation weather radars is only really useful for rain and wet snow. Even on max settings they are very poor at detecting dry hail or any icing. As has been pointed out here, and it in the US AIM, ATC wx radars do not show turbulence but most aircraft radars do. These can also pretty poor as they frequently lead you happily down a path and then suddenly give a strong indication of turbulence right in front of you. Very often when your eyes get a clear view of the weather you will reject what the radar is showing you. Experience in these scenarios is invaluable. Also, some people here seem to forget that there are passengers on board. The bigger the aircraft, the more nervous passengers you are likely to have on board and they can really freak out in the turbulence associated with flying into a cell. While pilots, cabin crew and most passengers will be fine with the roller coaster ride, crews have to think of their customers. Imagine throwing a medical emergency, due to anxiety or whatever, into the mix in that recording! Finally, I must compliment the NY ATC people as usually they are excellent in assisting with bad weather requests. But personally I would be disappointed with the service in that recording. |
Originally Posted by jurassicjockey
(Post 10205854)
"Standard pilot training for weather avoidance". How do you account for the variations in radar equipment and what they show. Experience is a huge factor as well. Reading a radar display has a lot of subleties.
Maybe lets start with some standardized atc around the world. If the SID is runway heading, and you require a 90 degree turn off of that through an area of weather, maybe a heads up through the tower to your departures. We're not mind readers, and when you point us at an area of weather with no advance warning, then a cautious man should hesitate. Maybe the previous 5 went through and regretted it. I know I've done that in the past. Lived to tell the tale. Yelling won't fix your mistakes, and creates an unsafe scenario. You can make some inference from Delta 191 at DFW but it’s slight at best. One was a aircraft in approach configuration at low altitude descending at minimum speed and the other was a clean aircraft climbing at a much higher altitude and speed. From a safety standpoint a apples to oranges situation. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 23:07. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.