Irish airspace and Brexit
 

I've searched but couldn't find a thread on the above.
Ireland's Taoiseach has said UK rights to fly through Irish airspace could be withdrawn.

[QUOTE][/This thought occurred to me when I saw the contents of a speech made by the Irish Taoiseach on Wednesday (18th July). Leo Varadkar said that London should not be surprised if Dublin withheld Irish airspace from British commercial aircraft in the event of a hard border emerging between the two parts of Ireland in the wake of Britain departing the EU. Closing airspace in a time of peace violates aviation treaties of which both Ireland and Britain are signatories. But no matter.QUOTE]
https://brexitcentral.com/dublins-th...-brinkmanship/
Can he be serious?

If there is a discussion on this topic could the moderators move/delete this post

As you say, there are international treaties (which are nothing to do with the EU) in place to facilitate aircraft of one country flying over other countries.

What I can see happening is that the UK would reciprocate, and withdraw all UK airspace to EI- registered aircraft, and flights to and from the Irish Republic. The UK wouldn't be affected too much, as transatlantic flighs would route south of Ireland, or across Northern Ireland, in UK airspace. Irish flights would only have the option of going west then south, or a long way north before turning east to Europe. That would massively increase their fuel costs and make the routes unprofitable.

I'd have thought this might confuse things a bit for both sides https://www.ukirelandfab.eu still it's yet another "unforeseen" consequence of Brexit which the proponents of have no foresight for or solution to.

Oh and routing across NI really won't help you get to the Atlantic from Eng/Wales much, Donegal is in the way.

No, he's an idiot.

EI's route network::

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...f340b147d9.jpg

Please remember: if UK crashes out of the EU without a deal (no membership of EASA), no flights from UK operators could be conducted to Europe and probably the rest of the world (because current agreements are through EASA).

This is just another politician spouting off about something he knows nothing about. I have taken part in briefings & negotiations with these people on a few occasions & have never failed to be overcome by their breathtaking ignorance !

Belligerent? Ireland? The country most likely to be hit hard by the reckless action of its neighbour. I think rather they have been planning ahead in launching one (and building others) super sized (the largest) ferry to sail around the UK....they are actually doing something real, something that can be seen and touched.
After all not one single person in the UK government knows what actually will happen to UK aviation or anything else.
The airline business needs to plan ahead and time is becoming perilously short.

Its a storm in a teacup.
Everyone is posturing and threatening about their special interest.
In the end an acceptable deal will be made because that is in everyones best interest.

Perhaps someone should send Mr Varadkar a copy of the International Air Services Transit Agreement that Ireland signed in 1957.

What Varadker said was based on how the EU might react to a crash-out Brexit, not what Dublin would "threaten" to do unilaterally. While Varadkar may have been mistaken in referring to overflights, the problem is much more real when it comes to flights into the UK from EU member states, including Ireland.

Ireland has more to lose than the UK from Brexit, and aviation provides a dramatic example of possible collateral damage. I looked at the Sun's despicable comments about Varadkar being an Airhead. At times I thing the appalling Trump has a point when he characterises the media as the enemy of the people. How many people in the UK are influenced by the poisonous and lying nonsense emanating from the Sun and other newspapers?

This is why it is in everyone's interest to reach an agreement. The EU will not profit if the UK leaves without a deal.

https://nltimes.nl/2018/07/20/hard-b...lands-imf-says

The UK media are conducting an unfocused propoganda war to keep the UK public on side.
Believe nothing that you read concerning BREXIT in UK media and you'll be fine.
Michel Barnier at a press-conference responded to May's Brexit proposal in a matter of fact way and the first question he receives is from The Guardian Reporter asking him if that was a polite way of saying No; that is a Journalist with an agenda.

This is all very Brass Eye/The Day Today stuff;

Leo is not posturing. He is being mis-represented in the British Press as have a number of other Irish politicians over the last few months.Irish Politicians are afraid to open their traps on this topic.

All told the EU cannot do a damn thing itself since it is not a state. ICAO therefore recognises the individual countries that make up the EU, not the EU itself; the EU has 'observer' status at ICAO. And Ireland would be in direct contravention of the ICAO treaties that it has signed up to. Could it happen? Well.... just ask Qatar.

Fatigued Fred - my comment was very firmly laying out the situation in the case that the Republic of Ireland had acted first. AFAIK, the UK is not threatening to stop EU aircraft from operating in the UK. What I have seen, is several threats from the EU and countries therein to stop the UK from operating in the EU post brexit.

Where have you seen threats. Video evidence please. Not reported speech from a biased UK media.
Facts that once the UK are out of the Union that they must re-negotiate various agreements are not threats, they are statements of fact.

Remind me again who owns The Sun?
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...-a3189151.html


What is the paper's position on Brexit?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/127792...um-on-june-23/


The reality of the comment?
FactCheck: Did the Taoiseach threaten to ban British planes from Irish skies?


In short, an archetypal UK red top tabloid hollows of the facts from a story, fills the space with misrepresentation that matches its owners agenda and pushes it a news. While the topic is newsworthy the Sun spin does no-one any service.

To borrow from Charles Dickens
Mr.Gradgrind, Hard Times.

JAS

fixed your post

Ok more petrol being poured on -

What about the EU saying the RAF cannot use any Cyprus bases?
Cutting, nose,spite and face are words that come to mind..

Roll on exit..

If you are really bored, you can see the official EU position here:
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...-transport.pdf

Goodness me, how did we ever manage to operate air services to the present countries of the EU prior to our joining the EEC in 1973? Could we hope to find sufficient competence to regulate the multiple aspects of our aerospace industry in the absence of the regulatory expertise of EASA? Why would any of the 27 remaining EU countries ever want to enter our airspace or sell us any of their aerospace products? Why would an EU-registered airline want to continue operating the majority of its services from a hub in the UK?

Chris Scott: When the UK joined the EEC in 1973, there was no single European open skies arrangement. That came much later.

In 1973 there was a network of bilateral aviation agreements which throttled competition, and going back to 1973 is probably unfeasible (the EU as a whole would negotiate any new post-Brexit agreement). Who wants to go back to the old world of bilateral monopoly arrangement and astronomically high air fares?

Brexit a problem? Just put the clock back 45 years. I love it!

In 1973 would anyone have seriously suggested reverting to a status qou ante 45 years earlier?

Just another example of the delusions that have driven the UK to it's current position as the laughing stock of Europe.

As usual with BREXIT the problem is really fractal, the closer you look, the more complicated it becomes.

Upon leaving the EU without a deal the UK would also leave Eurocontrol, EASA, Euratom and a quite large list of other agencies and treaties, amongst others the EU open sky agreement, the open sky agreements with the US and other parties. What would that mean?

All EASA licenses issued by the UK CAA would no longer be valid and recognised anywhere world wide with the possible exception of the UK.
The UK and its airlines would no longer be able to access Eurocontrol, the slot system and any air traffic control agreement under that umbrella would be null and void. Doesn't matter, the ATCO licenses are no longer valid anyway.
The UK airlines would have no route rights into europe at all, nor into the US unless a new UK-US open sky agreement has been done. Initial talks on that matter were, well, quite sobering for the UK.
No UK aircraft would be deemed airworthy if the airworthiness certificate was issued by the UK CAA or under UK CAA guidance.

Of course, any completely UK or third country certified (not based on EASA rules) aircraft and aircrew would be able to overfly EU countries and even land in the EU under the montreal convention, but they would not have any airport slots nor route rights.

That is all based on a no-deal scenario. It becomes more likely right now, but there is still a slim chance for a hastily done deal, although for that the UK would have to completely cave in as the EU is not in any way able to get away from its red lines (integrity of the single market system).

The only UK airline that has tried to prepare for BREXIT in its reality so far with shifting a third of its fleet into a european AOC. However, with the very small exception of the recently hired TXL based crew the rest of the airline is completely UK certified. Which means it will be effectively grounded with a small number of flights being able to be operated out of TXL.

And surely the reciprocal applies. Should the EU decide UK carriers can no longer operate into the EU, then what makes them think the UK will allow EU based carriers to the UK? And I suppose the same can be applied to all the other notices/directives.

Eurocontrol is not an EU agency.

Wasn't doing anything of the kind; merely pointing out that the UK can negotiate from a much stronger position on aerospace than Remainers pretend. Where there's a will there's a way, and clearly that applies to both sides, as I pointed out.

BTW, in relation to Mr Varadkar's threat (whoops, I beg his pardon: observations) on British a/c using Irish airspace, here's another example in which pragmatism would take precedence:
https://order-order.com/2018/07/20/i...rorist-hijack/

I wonder what Mr O'Leary thinks of the Irish drum-beating on behalf of the EU.

I have not seen the threat on video but quoted in multiple media sources including Irish press sources as “If they want their planes to fly over our skies, they would need to take that into account,” (and more).

Flying over right (first freedom) is covered by IASTA which both the UK and Ireland signed decades before the EU even existed, it has nothing to do with EU membership or hard or soft Brexit. That is a fact. Stating that the UK must re-negotiate various agreements, including Open Skies, in the event of Brexit is also a fact. Stating "...If they want their planes to fly over our skies ..." has no basis in fact unless Ireland intends to leave IASTA, it is not a threat, it is simply b***ocks.