I guess US airlines have less regards for their Pax than in Europe. As I have seen the exact opposite happen, Crews been left behind.

This stinks bad management by the company, if you can't foresee this problem in advance than you should find another job.

UA in this case should have offered more money until they got the seats they needed. You can have a business man missing a million dollar deal because suddenly the airline decides they want his ticket back.

How will cover such consequential loss suffered by passengers how have paid their seat, and have been allowed to board?
As long as they follow the rules, that seat belongs to the passengers, otherwise airlines would not be offering money to get the seats back.

Regardless does not justify to remove an embarked passenger this barbaric way.

The good doctor choose the method of eviction. There's nothing magical about making it through L1. There's no absolute rights when you're on private property. He could have simply walked off, he made the decision to push to situation as far as he did.

UAL can't have it both ways, i.e. when things are rosey they take credit, but when things go down the crapper they can't say it wasn't their flight. :=

It says UNITED AIRLINES on the fuselage, not Republic Airlines (except in small letters next to the door).

NEVER
 

I am a 69 year old male who spent 50 years in aviation, much of it in the cockpit.

I still travel a fair bit for business and pleasure.

NEVER will I fly with United Airlines again.

Nope, it says 'UNITEDEXPRESS' on the side of N632RW. :=

Regardless of the paint on the aircraft and the fine print over the door, isn't this about the boarding process as handled by a UAL gate crew?

Were not the gate crew decisions made to accommodate a UAL deadheading crew?.

I don't see the plane operating crew in this but perhaps more will come out in a formal investigation.

After 50 years in the biz, ...
 

.... much of it in the cockpit I have one last trip from Canada to Austin, Texas on April 20th.

That will be my last trip to this totally :mad: up country.

At some point this mentally suspect individual was given a choice. Get off the plane or you will be removed. His injuries are the result of his choices. He obviously had never been taught to share as a kid and thought that his belligerence would be rewarded (as it obviously has been before). He might think twice in the future.

He doesn't have a legal right to stay on the aircraft. He was told to leave. It's pretty simple. Obviously the PR issues are significant but in the end you just have to be part of society and sometimes that means you don't always get what you want. Individuals need to be adults. This guy was just throwing a tantrum.

are you serious? this is the pax fault? so it's OK to assault your passengers?

I can't disagree. I was commenting on the previous poster's comments that this was a Republic Flight, not a UAL flight.

Mapquest lists this as a 5hr 13min drive. If upping the offer to take a later flight didn't get enough volunteers, then the airline could have had a driver drive the employees to their destination - driving wouldn't have taken much longer than the delay. Or they could have offered to drive the displaced passengers, or pay for rental cars. A lot of ways this could have been handled that would have resulted in far less bad publicity.

Then again, it could have been worse. This guy was a doctor. Imagine for a moment that he was a transplant doctor, and was rushing home because a heart had just been found for some child. Organs are only viable for a certain amount of time, and if the doctor was pulled off the flight.....

Unbelievable

Fair enough. United Express is owned by UAL. Note how the "Express" is faded to emphasis "United." The brand is United. OWN IT!

http://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/ima.../28/137944.jpg

What are the facts here?

1. UA Express had a 70 seat plane that they needed to fit 74 people on.
2. UA tried to get 4 people to give up seats, but $800 to $1000 didn't succeed
3. Instead of bidding higher, UA decided to use IDB to reduce the load. (Note that in retrospect, I am sure that if UA could do things over, it would decide to have continued the auction rather than go to IDB -- but hindsight is 20/20).
4. One pax that drew the short straw adamantly refused to leave the plane (note that it matters not a wit from a legal perspective that he was already on the plane. If the CoC says he can be denied a seat on the flight, it doesn't matter whether he has passed through the BP scanner yet or not. Note, I have seen people get on fully-booked planes who then find that their seat is broken. They have to leave the plane and hope the agent can find someone willing to give up a seat. Being already on the plane means nothing for the process.)
5. The police that removed the gentleman from the plane were heavy-handed. But his refusal to cooperate only made the situation worse. (note, that if he was in the legal right about being able to fly, his far better path would have been to leave the plane under verbal protest, and then sue in civil court for breach of CoC. Acting uncooperatively only hurts his subsequent legal position)
6. Finally, one can Google "airline X bumped me from flight" and find examples of this type of instance occurring for every major airline, because they all have pretty much the same CoC. The only important differences in this case were the crude behavior of the police and the belligerent response by the unlucky pax. No party here is completely blameless.

Cheap, Cheap, Cheap
 

Surely some sum short of $5,000 would have found a fourth volunteer.

The DH could have been put on another carrier, or a charter flight, but that might have cost more than $5,000.

If the doc had patients waiting for scheduled surgery, they can sue UA for delayed treatment and the hospital can sue for lost OR time.

United's CoC says "denied boarding." He already boarded. Just because UAL has been violating their own CoC for years doesn't make it right.

Police can not arrest for torts (civil issues) on an airline. To do so makes them an unlawful agent for the airline.

Good luck in court, UAL, but they will settle for 6-7 figures with a confidentiality agreement without admitting that they did anything wrong.

Then they will do this again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Really, are you serious? I've been on a UAL 727 overloaded at Denver. 6 of us were told to get off or the flight wouldn't leave. The initial offer was $200 with no overnight. I was asked and refused to get home to my daughters birth. 6 people volunteered for a free round trip ticket and overnight. This is nothing more the CHEAP!

Rather be flying

You do know that Airlines can't simply offer whatever they want, or whatever a pax wants?

people on this thread who are trying to justify this behavior by United (and to say that someone else did it is nit-picking) don't deserve to be in a service industry. Airlines exist because of their paying passengers: don't forget it!

there's a definite step change in COMPANY POLICY here.

It used to be "darn, everyone has turned up, what shall we do, we've entered into a paid contract, we need to convince someone to leave"

now it's

"We'll randomly pick people and kick them off the plane, yes "sir", that's not a euphemism, it could happen, I suggest you leave before we legally assault you"

What is of concern is its COMPANY POLICY to do this now, as confirmed in the email above.

"What? You're flying home to your mother's funeral, sorry "sir", company policy you see, right, someone assault him, quickly, we've not got time to waste"

Your seat is no longer your seat, they used to have to buy it back off you. They can now deplane you because they feel like it, through no fault of your own, is that really of no concern to people who choose to fly with them. It would concern me. Won't concern the sheeple, their planes are still overbooked today.

That's the old pre-merger paint job that is no longer on the plane. But you are right, the branding is intentionally confusing to the customer.

Sounds good in hindsight but might not be contractual for a mainline crew. Also, additional rest might be needed for a reserve crew to make a morning departure, depending on when they went on call.

United's pilots are ALPA, I believe Republic's are Teamsters.

Not saying that was the only option, but suggesting it could have been a possibility. For that matter, if the passenger insists they need to be there for the next morning and can't wait for the next day's flight, then you could drive the passengers to their destination. Airline already offered $800+hotel each - surely you could rent a vehicle and pay a driver or even get a limo to drive them for considerably less than $3600-$4000 and still have some $ left over to bribe them into taking the offer.

One thing that I don't understand is how come UA/UA Express/Agents apparently didn't know that there was a requirement to get four crew on board, until after the passengers had boarded. Surely if they had known about it, they could have boarded (plane capacity - 4) to leave space for additional 4 crew. If they didn't know about it, why not?

He did not just BUY ticket
 

It is not as simple as him just "buying a ticket"
From United's own web site, he made a BOOKING. Subtle, but important difference.

http://oil710.com/blf/united-book-travel.jpg

Fact of life. Equipment break down. People get sick. Other crews get stranded due to weather. Etc., etc., not all knowable until last minute.

nobody there to save the day
 

After the "smart move" that allowed the poor guy to smash "voluntarily" his face on the armrest, moments later, he came back in the cabin, as shown in a video.
https://youtu.be/eU1HPwKrMrY?t=28

There was lost the last chance, the airline or a decent crew member could step up: "Ok sir, sorry for all inconvenience, we'll fly you home. Now the price of a seat is 2000$!

You don't have the pulse, he's reasonably well regarded. He's brought on some talent after raiding AA. Let's check back in 48 and see who's right. That is unless you mean 48 months or years, you weren't specific. If anything the rank and file like him more today than yesterday for backing the front line employees involved with this.

March 9, 2017

West Coast
This is not an issue of airline/passenger rights but a customer service issue plain and simple. As one with extensive experience in PR I would like to offer a few thoughts.

No matter how you slice it this is a PR disaster of epic proportions for United. Even if as you have argued everything could be justified from a legal and airline perspective this is not how it is perceived. Several factors are worth focusing on.

Firstly we have the treatment of the passenger which will be seen as unnecessarily brutal. Whilst it was the Chicago police who were responsible for the violence it was United that enabled it. United will be blamed for the violence.

Secondly we have the fact that his stated profession is a doctor with patients to see. Most will perceive this as over-riding any crew rights to travel in his place. We must also note that almost every paying passenger will expect to get priority over flight crew whether dead heading or not unless offered a serious amount of compensation.

Thirdly, the airline industry is a customer service industry and this incident has put a huge dent in that perception. The treatment of legitimate passengers in this way will be seen as an overbearing and uncaring corporation reneging on its commitments.

Finally the response by United has been poor to say the least. Munoz's letter fails to address the incident in a way that shows an appreciation of its seriousness and instead goes some way to exacerbating the 'them and us' situation. US airlines already have a low reputation for customer service and this incident will not help.

In this set of circumstances the airline can only be 'wrong' and will never be 'right'. The only thing an airline can do is be apologetic and institute measures to make sure that such an incident never happens again. Offering the passenger very generous compensation and a public apology also needs to happen. There is no other course of action.

When he gave them a seemingly good reason to be on the flight, why didn't they just get the computer to chose another passenger at random?

By the time the Pax has taken them to the cleaners, the could have chartered a GV with a well stocked bar and still saved money.

United hasn't tweeted all day, looks like they are hoping that it will just blow over...

Social Media is awash with spoof ads, videos and statements from thousands of people stating that they will never fly United. This may not be so true as as soon as Delta is more expensive they will probably fly with UA again.

The whole incident is shocking and the way United has handled it is just as bad. I presume in United's world they were just re-accommodating the pax from a seat to a stretcher.

America the police state
 

With logic like that you gotta be a cop. 🙄 The guy was a fully paid passenger with seat assignment who was sitting quietly in his seat when a goon in blue jeans and a civilian shirt attacked him. How would you react?

Old Cart

I agree with much of what posted, this is a PR disaster, I as a worker bee however concern myself as to whether the process given to the employees was followed. Given what I can see at this point, highlighted by Oscar's letter indicate to me they were. This isn't exactly a complicated case, by this point the employees actions surely have been internally scrutinized. That's the niche I'm arguing here against a lot of folks who opine that the station, cabin and flight crews shoulder blame. There's idiotic suggestions that many thousands of dollars be offered to the pax when that in of itself is against the law. I list that as one example of the general ignorance offered here which is simply representative of the general public and thus the flying population. UA is in a no win situation given that the truth isn't an important part of the decision making process in social media, nor here specifically on PPRUNE.

West Coast, you and I agree on one point - this is business. Business involves a positive relationship with you customers, especially when they are faced with choice. If you fail to give your customers a rewarding experience, they will take their custom somewhere else.

Of course, BIG companies tend to forget their customers single occurrences of 'bad business' have little effect on the bottom line. That is until someone else comes along and steals your business.

As SLF I would like to point out an aspect of this which I don't think has been commented on so far, and that is the reaction of the other passengers who were eyewitnesses to the events; not only those videoing but those visible in the video.

I would say passengers are generally relieved when anybody disruptive is removed from their flight and full of praise for the crew and/or LEO, especially if it means their flight gets to depart more or less on time.

The overwheming impression one gets from available evidence of passengers' reactions in this case is one of outrage.

Of course, there was no other way to get the crew where they were going. I mean, if it was soooo important to get them where they needed to be why not lay on a private charter? My company does so. Nope, beating up an old man was THE best solution?

Do YOU know for a FACT that the dead-heading crew were due to be operating?

Got to say I find some of the attitudes in this thread quite frightening, and I hope i'm never on any flight that some on here are on.

Cows

Is it a relationship with customers or a fear of a social media backlash? Other customer obligations were maintained by getting the DH crew into position to carry them, far more than the one pax that caused the ruckus. He however punches above his weight as his story is the social media story of the day, not the potentially hundreds that were accommodated because the crew was carried instead. Managing PR and doing the right thing certainly are synonymous.

3 years ago we were booked on a United flight from LA to Brisbane (having left Salt Lake a few hours earlier). Turned out the flight was overbooked by about 8 people (from memory).

They called for volunteers and we moved to near the counter just observe the process. One of the would-be passengers was pleading to get on - he was flying to his best mates Bucks Party and Wedding (well, that was his story). I can't recall the other stories. He seemed genuine and we took pity on him, and went forward to enquire about offering up our seats. The rules were explained - he was last on the wait-list, and if we gave up our seats they would go to people ahead of him and they couldn't guarantee he would still get on.

At that stage the 'offer' was a night in LA, confirmed on next flight out (24 hours later) and $800 travel voucher. We were asked to step to one side with United staff member who quietly upped the offer to include 1st class travel on the flight the next day if we were prepared to give up our seats and just hope for the best for the guy we had taken pity on. As we were discussing this I saw 2 others come forward, seemeingly prepared to give up their seats, so I agreed to our deal.

Everything went smoothly - we spent a lovely day touring LA, Santa Monica and down to Long Beach arriving at the airport at 8:30 pm for our 1st class flight to Australia.

Somehow the treatment we received, and the way it was handled, is just so far apart from this experience. I can't help but wonder how much 'attitude' has to do with it all round.