Acars supposesd to show fire in toilet and then flight deck.. How would this make aircraft complete a 60 degree left turn followed by a 360 degree right turn then a plunge to fl15 before radar contact lost?

Only speculation but has this accident (smoke in the lavatories) anything to do with the security risk identified some years ago related to oxygen generators in lavatories? See http://www.airsafenews.com/2011/03/faa-orders-removal-of-lavatory-oxygen.html

This security directive was implemented by i.a. US and EU airlines. No idea whether it was implemented by Egyptair as well.

@tatelyle: Are you referring to the fact that the front row in aircraft of most airlines in the region is a (non)designated smoking section ? Indeed a dropped or discarded butt landing on the O2 hose could do the trick...

Options
 

many, many options still open...

When you look at recent accidents, a loss of control sequence can run Within a timeframe of 4 minutes.

More surprising, in the case of fire turning out to be a cause, is the relatively short time between first sensing and the actual crash time estimate. In general a fire or smoke caused crash event takes much longer to run. Take for example the Swiss Canadian and Joh'burg cases and a number of Middle Eastern cases.

So another option could be actions following system/fire warnings leading to actions causing loss of control.

CBS news reporting black box located
 

CBS news reporting as followsEgyptAir Flight 804: Black boxes for crashed airplane located - CBS News

Search crews have located the data recorders for EgyptAir Flight 804 close to an area where human remains and debris from the crashed flight have been found, Egyptian government sources confirmed to CBS News.

@San Diego kid: I can assure you that on all recent flights I have taken with MS to/from Europe, and most on Turkish (and there were quite a few), I could smell cigarette smoke, and there was no doubt as to where it was coming from.

On that subject at least one (French) source has cautioned that the smoke warnings might be a result of decompression...( and TBF there is a note to that effect in at least one Boeing manual).

I guess I'll leave it to others more familiar with the A320 to discuss how credible that is on the type and how it ties in or not with other known credible data.

While the ACARS messages have been confirmed as genuine, I would continue to exercise caution when treating the ECAM warnings on face value. These are computer generated messages, and they could occur under two conditions:
1) a fully functional system, operating as designed
2) a compromised system, with unpredictable behavior

In the second case, the messages only indicate a fault with the entire system, and have nothing to do with any nominal fault displayed.

21/05/2016 21:04
CBS are reporting that the black box data recorder of downed EgyptAir flight 804 has been found in the area close to where the debris was discovered. They quote 'Egyptian government sources' but nothing has been confirmed yet.

A crew from Britain's ITV News on the ground in Cairo also claim EgyptAir are not denying the claim.

BREAKING EgyptAir Flight #MS804 from Paris to Cairo disappeared from radar during the night | AIRLIVE.net

Report says it was electrical fire involving oxygen hoses.
And your point is what ?

This comment will no doubt be quite correctly quickly modded out but that's priceless...

Hi tatelyle,
Er.... The accident report is available from the Egyptian CAA website (but very slow to download). Another copy here B777_SU-GBP.pdf
See page 35.
The cause was attributed to missing electrical wire clamps and sleeving which allowed the PVC covered Stainless Steel wire around the FO's O2 hose to rub, cause an electrical short circuit and start a fire which was then fed by the crew's O2.

In what way is that linked to the way the crews operate?

Originally Posted by andrasz View Post
@San Diego kid: I can assure you that on all recent flights I have taken with MS to/from Europe, and most on Turkish (and there were quite a few), I could smell cigarette smoke, and there was no doubt as to where it was coming from.

- Don't know about Egyptair but I fly Turkish a lot often at the front of the plane and I have never, not even once, seen anyone smoking

@Birmingham: you never see, only smell. Most noticeable on 73's where cockpit air gets vented to the rear of the pax cabin. On the big ones it is undetectable.

The CBS News report

EgyptAir Flight 804: Black boxes for crashed airplane located, Egypt government sources claim - CBS News

seems to have lost something in translation.

The black boxes being "located" would mean they detected the pingers, though this is not explained.

CBS News also reports that the ACARS reports indicate "smoke was coming from one of the engines."
_________________________

A NY Times 'expert' focuses on loss of the autoflight control computer while flying near maximum speed and altitude, and then the loss of the spoiler elevator controller.

Since the days of the Wright brothers all commercial a/c accidents have been caused by one or more of the following:

1. Weather
2. Structural failure
3. In flight fire
4. Onboard explosion
5. Pilot error
6. Hijack
7. Pilot suicide
8. Crew incapacitation

...and don't forget Occam's Razor!

Someone asked a couple of pages back if something was DC2 powered. WHC2 is DC2 powered as is CIDS CH2, FCU2 and SEC3. Can't find what powers Avionics smoke but there are a whole lot more things that would have shown up if DC2 had completely failed.

Having had two engine flameouts at altitude I can tell you it's a very benign event. You get some yaw but nothing like a engine loss at V1. The aircraft decelerates slowly and that rate decreases after selecting Max continuous power on the other engine. You have plenty of time to call ATC and get a clearance to descend before the aircraft reaches clean speed. There is no need for a off airway turn unless directed by ATC.

Footage of the debris
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=QRZlfCIb8qE

DING. That's why I posed the question I did a couple of pages back; there's an oddball collection of items in the messages - but most significant is what there isn't in those messages. And that there wasn't complete silence; the fact that we have any messages at all is also highly significant.

A couple of questions
 

I've been away from this thread.

Does this model Bus have an auto emergency descent capability.

I know I saw this asked in this thread, but have not seen an answer.

Also in this thread, someone asked about inadvertent thrust reverser deployment.

I know it is a different model aircraft, but the Lauda 004 incident comes to mind. There is still controversy about whether a high speed deployment would be survivable.

Finally, had anyone stepped up to claim responsibility for this accident?

Thanks for any answers.

says who?

am armchair expert?
a professional pilot who has never once read a maintenance or troubleshooting manual?
a journalist fishing
or a mechanic who deals with these messages every day?

I think some clarity would be needed in order to place some weight and accuracy on the comment.

When an a/c suffers a rapid depressurisation the initial effect is a white mist (water vapour) obscures the cabin, smoke sensors could be fooled into detecting this, however one would expect a cabin low pressure to be triggered at the same time
So is it possible that this sensor was somehow disabled or maybe its protocol to transmit the warning to ACARS was not in the time available?

Walnut

Indeed, it's something one or two ex- airline media sources have mentioned as one possibility (and was mentioned in # 407 ....), but even they were raising the same concerns you have about the seeming lack of a concurrent "cabin altitude" ACARS message (or similar).

@Walnut, there was a post earlier of the computer screen with the ACARS messages. http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post9383206 One of the columns had a Priority level. Some of these messages were low & some higher. Also they were over several minutes.
One thing I did notice was another column -> Occurrence History

The "Smoke Lavatory Smoke" Message had occurred before... since the 18th May 2016 @ 21:09.... The date & time start is set at top of picture.
EDIT: Looks like it was the same flight....this ACARS report shows only from engine start.

What does each block indicate in the occurrence history, I assume some sort of time period or engine start?

Fire?
 

From a story on the DW (Deutsche Welle) website this AM:
"Smoke and fire broke out on board EgyptAir flight MS804 minutes before the plane plunged off radar screens during the early hours of Thursday morning.
"There was a fire on board," aviation expert Tim van Beveren told DW. "The system sent very clear messages. There was lavatory smoke detected. A minute later, avionics compartment smoke detected...Two minutes later, the flight control units are failing.""
Fatal EgyptAir flight suffered on-board fire minutes before crash | News | DW.COM | 20.05.2016

Just bear in mind that because you receive a "Lavatory Smoke Message" and an "Avionics Smoke Message" doesn't mean a fire started in either of these places.

exactly. The lavatory message may even relate to a lav at the rear.

Smoke and fire sensors
 

A report on a cargo hold fire from a number of years ago included a systematic investigation of different types of smoke and fire sensors performances. Not only on fire and smoke, but also on multiple possible causes for spurious warnings. One of the conclusions was that one type/class of sensors was inaccurate. And its replacement by another type strongly recommended.

Pity i dont remember the exact case at the moment. Perhaps someone else does.

As far as i can recall the inaccurate type was sensitive to particles other than smoke and fire related ones. may have been a visual/optical kind of sensor. Decompression was one of the causes of stirring up dust particles in the cargo hold causing these sensors to go off. And the better types being InfraRed IR (heat source).

So in cases like these you would have to know the specific type of sensors before you are able to understand what triggered the sensor, which triggers the warning message, and in what kind of priority, to what kind of warning system. This requires both correct aircraft configuration information and knowledgeable system and data interpretation.

Another issue which became clear from the report is how difficult it can be for pilots and crew to distinguish between smell, smoke, fire. Especially when the source area is not directly visible or accessible.
And combined with other cases ... Is that with a fire a straight course to any airport is the safest solution, followed by immediate evacuation.
These last two lines show how complex such a situation can be for pilots and their decision making.

The very fast reaction in this case suggests .... No more than suggests ... Directly observable smoke or fire. Cause of that smoke or fire unknown.

By the phrase "oddball" I simply meant that there's nothing that stands out; no obvious smoking gun as it were. With the possible exception of the avionics bay smoke perhaps... but as other have pointed out there are multiple possible causes for that message.

The significance (to me) is nothing more than 1. there are ACARS messages and 2. the messages don't contain anything catastrophic. I'm not reading anything more into it than that.

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3


LAV SMOKE was third message sent, this leads me to believe whatever brought the AC down did not originate in the Lavatory. If a fire originated in the lav, the attendants would have been trained to aggressively fight the fire once made aware of it. I believe there would have been a greater time lag between a lav originated fire and the end result. On our aircraft there is no ECAM for lav smoke, but there is an unannuciated checklist:

Lavatory Smoke

Condition: Smoke or fire is detected in a lavatory.

WARNING: If the smoke becomes so dense or toxic that it becomes the more immediate emergency, accomplish the Dense Smoke/Fuel Vapor checklist.

The Cabin attendants would be the first to know of lav smoke via CIDS generated audio and visual warnings. On our aircraft three low chimes are generated throughout the cabin. The amber section of the attendant call panel nearest the affected lav will flash. Finally the attendant information panel will read on the top line, "SMOKE LAVATORY" and on the second line "A,D or F" to indicate which lavatory detector is signaling smoke. Granted our Air Buses are dated, so newer models may have somewhat different indications.

Finally the lavatory exhaust fans run anytime power is on the aircraft and exhaust through the outflow valve.

I take it the avionics smoke detector will detect smoke vented from the cockpit which would suggest a window heating element on the right side could be the cause.

No A/P off msg generated ?

Exactly why I posted

@B&Blue
 

Some aircraft initiate an emergency descent when certain events are sensed.

I don't know if this plane, or any of the newer Boeings or Buses are so equipped.

As an example, the Gulfstream 450-650 models automatically initiate an emergency descent to 15,000 and slow there to 250kts if a cabin depressurization occurs at altitude. It also changes heading by 90 degrees.

This happens provided the A/P and the auto-throttles are on.

I think your all reading too much into these messages.
Just because the message was generated doesn't mean the situation actually occurred.
Also the unrelated nature of the messages points to a different explanation to me.

The Citation X and XLS have it also.

Old Boeing Driver
"... the Lauda 004 incident comes to mind. There is still controversy about whether a high speed deployment would be survivable"


Apparently not, according to Boeing and the final report, at least not at cruise altitude. Certification tests showed it should be controllable but they were made at lower altitude. When Boeing flew the Lauda scenario in the simulator the loss of control was so rapid that there was no possibility of catching it in time.

Having had a rapid decompression at FL330 on an L1011 I can tell you from my own experience that there was no white mist just a loud 'woomph' sound and that, with a check on the cabin altitude, was enough to prompt us to don oxygen masks and start an emergency descent. The cause was the failure of the rear negative pressure relief valve which is some 80 cm in diameter which had a total failue around its perimeter.

Yes. The Avionics Smoke ECAM can be triggered by smoke sources external to the avionics bay.