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-   -   EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/579183-egyptair-804-disappears-radar-paris-cairo.html)

Stefan Wolf 19th May 2016 03:07

EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo
 
EgyptAir Flight MS804 has disappeared from radar during a flight from Paris to the Egyptian capital of Cairo, the airline says. At least 69 people were on board.

EgyptAir Flight MS804 disappears from radar during Paris-Cairo flight - BNO News

log0008 19th May 2016 03:15

Last track on Flightraar24
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CiydNIpUoAUj1gh.jpg

Airbubba 19th May 2016 03:16

The Flightradar24 plot of MS804:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/f...ms804/#9c0b766

And the FlightAware plot:

Egypt Air (MS) #804 18-May-2016 CDG / LFPG - CAI / HECA FlightAware

Airbubba 19th May 2016 03:24

From the FlightAware page, looks like the plane was last seen on the ADS-B data at about 0030Z cruising at FL370. That seems to be in agreement with the Flightradar24 screen capture posted above. The two networks get data from different ADS-B receivers as far as I know.

log0008 19th May 2016 03:33

Yep no weather, clear night by the looks of things - missing more than 3 hours it seams

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CiyhNxhWYAATlGi.jpg

Feathered 19th May 2016 03:42

FlightRadar 24 shows the aircraft is SU-GCC, an A320-232.
Flightaware shows the aircraft is a B737-800.

Searching on tail SU-GCC in Flightaware brings up the missing flight MSR804. Strangely it still shows up as a 737-800 for that flight. Website glitch or wrong type filed?

It appears that the actual missing plane is an A320. Not sure why it shows up as a B737 in Flightaware. The same flight for the last two weeks on Flightaware also shows as 737.

Airbubba 19th May 2016 03:46


does this mean descent below the level covered by radar between two pings? that seems very fast to me.
ADS-B coverage in that area seems to be good. The last positions on the FlightAware log are from a station near LTFG airport in Turkey. I'm pretty sure they would show a descent before dropping below ADS-B range from looking at other lower traffic in that area.

Looks to me like something happened fast.

AlphaOmega 19th May 2016 03:54

Looks like it was indeed an A320 and not a 737 as previously speculated

pattern_is_full 19th May 2016 04:12


does this mean descent below the level covered by radar between two pings? that seems very fast to me.
Antiquated idea of how "radar" works these days. What controllers see on their screens is a transmission from the aircraft (transponder, or as Airbubba says, now ADS-B). A flip of an on/off switch in the cockpit can make a plane "disappear" instantaneously. As can anything that cuts off the transmission: loss of electrical power, loss of airframe continuity. The aircraft does not have to "descend below radar coverage."

The old-school, bouncing radio waves off aluminum, primary radar is available if desired, but if the aircraft is now a descending shower of confetti, won't help much after the fact. It will take some time to check the primary returns on tape to see what shows up there.

All we really know right now is that the aircraft abruptly ceased transmitting while still at 37000 feet.

Airbubba 19th May 2016 04:37

A report on CNN gives the crew as two pilots, five flight attendants and three security officers.

Some airlines from the Middle East have discreetly flown into airports like CDG and LHR for decades now with armed sky marshals.

CONSO 19th May 2016 04:44

from wsj
EgyptAir said that one of its aircraft disappeared early Thursday while flying from Paris to Cairo with 66 people aboard.
The Egyptian flag carrier said Flight MS804, which departed Paris at 11:09 p.m. local time, “disappeared from radar” at 2:45 a.m. Cairo time Thursday while at 37,000 feet, according to tweets on the airline’s verified Twitter account.
The Airbus A320 with 56 passengers, three security personnel and seven crew was last spotted over the Mediterranean Sea en route to Cairo, according to flight-tracking websites.
The airline said that a search and rescue operation was under way. The jet disappeared 10 miles inside Egyptian airspace, which has its northern border in the middle of the Mediterranean, the airline said, one of the planet’s busiest air corridors connecting Europe and the Middle East.

Airbubba 19th May 2016 05:02

Some more information from Egyptair, translated from earlier Arabic media releases:


Noteworthy that the aircraft pilot has 6275 of flying hours including 2101 flying hours on Airbus 320.

As for the co-pilot he has 2766 flying hours. The manufacturing date of the aircraft in 2003.

Special teams from the Egyptian Armed Forces were are at site located for inspection and rescue.

log0008 19th May 2016 05:07

Have seen at least 2 Greek airforce ERJ-135's head down towards the area, tracked by Flightradar24 but as they are only covered by MLAT coverage it is lost quite quickly

log0008 19th May 2016 05:30


Originally Posted by susier (Post 9380728)
Watching playback at 00:37 (utc) there looks to be a conflict between this aircraft and UAE194 which cross both ostensibly travelling at FL 370 however looking at the speed/alt nothing appears to happen suddenly at that point.


It disappears roughly 19 minutes later over Kafr El-Zayat, despite the BBC stating it's feared to be 'in the sea'.

The flight is not actually being tracked, on playback flightradar assumes that after loss of contact flights will continue in their present direction.

SummerLightning 19th May 2016 05:37

@susier. There are some decidedly bizarre features of the playback, including UAE194 disappearing from it - though zooming in, there appears to be no 'conflict' at all. As a regular FR24 user, I'd say that despite a previous comment, ADS-B coverage in the area is glitchy and can't be relied upon.

LBCguy 19th May 2016 05:39


Isn't there a US carrier battle group loitering in the Eastern Med these days?
Unfortunately, no. The USS Truman is on Middle East duty, but it's currently in the Persian Gulf and not the Med.

BDiONU 19th May 2016 05:47


Originally Posted by pattern_is_full (Post 9380687)
Antiquated idea of how "radar" works these days. What controllers see on their screens is a transmission from the aircraft (transponder, or as Airbubba says, now ADS-B). A flip of an on/off switch in the cockpit can make a plane "disappear" instantaneously. As can anything that cuts off the transmission: loss of electrical power, loss of airframe continuity. The aircraft does not have to "descend below radar coverage."

The old-school, bouncing radio waves off aluminum, primary radar is available if desired, but if the aircraft is now a descending shower of confetti, won't help much after the fact. It will take some time to check the primary returns on tape to see what shows up there.

All we really know right now is that the aircraft abruptly ceased transmitting while still at 37000 feet.

This explanation is also incorrect. Think of surveillance in two ways, cooperative (the aircraft tells you something) and non-cooperative (you are not dependent on the aircraft telling you). ATC radar is (for safety reasons) non cooperative using either primary radar (a skin paint) or secondary radar where more than one radar detects the signal from the transponder. ADS B is a cooperative technology, the aircraft's transponder squits out the position of the aircraft and that gets picked up by a ground receiver, which is why you can do it on your home PC for a few bucks spent on an aerial. Very few ATC units utilise ADS B only.
ADS B has benefits in the amount of data which gets sent, like Mode S aircraft ID, the tail number and callsign. No need for a squawk code but not all aircraft are equipped with ADS B and you, on the ground, cannot be certain that what the aircraft is telling you (position reporting) is absolutely correct. Whilst flight radar 24 etc is an interesting toy to check on the status of where auntie Doris aeroplane is when she is coming to visit it is not what ATC (in general) are using to track aircraft.

susier 19th May 2016 05:50

I was referring to an altitude conflict as in both aircraft travelling at 37000 ft and crossing paths. It looks as though FR can't be relied on in any case; as quite rightly stated other flights appear to vanish and to be in entirely the wrong place at various points also. Apologies for the waste of time.


Link to screen capture of perceived altitude conflict - just for the record:


http://www.pprune.org/members/429285...310-msruae.jpg

andrasz 19th May 2016 05:59

The LKP is about 300 kilometres distant from all land, being Turkey, Egypt & Greece (Crete). It is just on the very edge of useful range for FR receivers, so it is not surprising that data is not reliable. There is nothing to learn from the FR track except that everything appeared normal until LKP, anything more pure speculation.


@SMT, if you actually use logic, you will find many more possibilities. We have several recent accidents where a perfectly flyable aeroplane just fell out of cruise level and it had nothing to do with what you suggest. And yes, there were events what you say, perhaps a few less...

chucko 19th May 2016 06:11

What are the bounds of "Egyptian airspace"? How far offshore?

F14 19th May 2016 06:13

Does Egypt Air have the "2-Person", cockpit rule? News is reporting DG were not being carried and CDG says security was unlikely to be compromised. Seems a bit far from the action for a SAM launch from a warship.

sitigeltfel 19th May 2016 06:27

Sky News reporting that shipping crew in the area saw flames in the sky.

camel 19th May 2016 06:30

At 02.26 UTC say reuters that the Egyptian military received a distress call
....if correct that is shortly after it 'disappeared '

ELT?

susier 19th May 2016 06:30

According to the Guardian


EgyptAir flight MS804 disappears from radar between Paris and Cairo ? live updates | World news | The Guardian


'EgyptAir says that the plane’s emergency devices (possibly an emergency locator transmitter or beacon) sent a distress signal that was received at 4.26am, some two hours after the previously stated last radar contact.'

StormyKnight 19th May 2016 06:35

Latest Rumours....
"Distress Call heard by Miltary"
"Mayday Call issued before crash"
"Distress Call not by pilot but by equipment"
"Fireball Witnessed"
"Military search and rescue teams have received a signal from the missing plane's emergency devices"
"Greek officials investigating reports from island residents that they saw a ball of fire in the sky"

bilby_qld 19th May 2016 06:36


Originally Posted by chucko (Post 9380785)
What are the bounds of "Egyptian airspace"? How far offshore?

It's about 175 nautical miles from the boundary between the Cairo and Athinai FIRs at waypoint KUMBI to landfall on the Egyptian coast via UL612; So if reports that LKP was 10nm inside the Cairo FIR are correct, that's 165nm or 305km, give or take.

That position is only about 150nm from the Greek islands to the north and northwest, so a touch closer to Greece than to Egypt, but pretty much in the middle.

camel 19th May 2016 06:45

hello CNN??

do you realise that the distress call can be either from the pilots or from the aircraft itself?????

please put someone on who knows what he is talking about ??

thanks!

Swedishflyingkiwi 19th May 2016 07:08

I read approx 30 mins from arrival - about normal for beginning of descent. Sorry.

Kitiara 19th May 2016 07:15

I think someone prodded him with a fragment of a clue camel


CNN's Richard Quest says the distress call, if it did come from the missing EgyptAir flight, may not have been sent manually by a pilot but could have been from some form of activated water device or crash device.

"It could be a life raft or anything that has broken off that sends out an emergency signal, it does not mean the pilots sent a Mayday," he added.

Mo122 19th May 2016 07:29

Press release 4

An EGYPTAIR official declared that EGYPTAIR A320 aircraft in its flight number MS804 lost contact with radar above the Mediterranean Sea about 280 KM from the Egyptian seacoast at 02:30 am CLT as the flight was expected to arrive Cairo Airport at 03:15 am CLT.
EGYPTAIR confirms that there are 56 passengers in addition to 10 cabin crew members onboard the aircraft and the passengers' nationalities are as follows:
- 15 French
- 30 Egyptian
- 1 British
- 1 Belgium
- 2 Iraqis
- 1 Kuwaiti
- 1 Saudi
- 1 Sudanese
- 1 Chadian
- 1 Portuguese
- 1 Algerian
- 1 Canadian

EGYPTAIR crisis center is following up with the concerned authorities and EGYPTAIR will issue any additional information once available.
EGYPTAIR has hosted the passengers' families near to Cairo Airport and has provided doctors, translators and all the necessary services to the passengers' family members during their stay at Cairo Airport.

ThinkRate 19th May 2016 07:47

According to Greek media (roughly translated by me):

"There was a normal radio call above KEA waypoint between the flight and Athens ACC at approx 0300am LT. The next call was due 20 minutes later, prior to exiting Athens FIR and handoff to Egypt. The plane never responded to repeated ATC calls. The plane was still visible on radar. The plane was then lost from radar approx 7nm after entering the Egyptian FIR just south of KUMBI. Athens asked military radar whether they were tracking the aircraft. They were not. Athens raised SAR and notified Egypt. A C130, a helicopter and an early-warning aircraft were scrambled as well as a frigate (HNS Nikiforos Fokas) following reports from the captain of a merchant vessel that he saw a "flash" in the sky 130nm south of the island of Karpathos."

sitigeltfel 19th May 2016 07:58


The Egyptian military has denied a report from EgyptAir that a distress signal was sent by the plane.
EgyptAir flight MS804 from Paris to Cairo disappears from radar - BBC News

NiclasB 19th May 2016 08:02

Link to sea traffic in the area
 
This link will show you the marine traffic in the approximate area.

AIS Vessel Tracking - AIS Positions Maps | AIS Marine Traffic

Pace 19th May 2016 08:16

Sadly although the position will be accurately fixed is that as reported today it has gone down in the deepest part of the Mediterranean

Deepest point in Mediterranean Sea 5267 metres (17280 feet) Calypso Deep, Ionian Basin, 45 miles SW of Pylos, Greece south of there is also deep

So we will be back to difficulties reaching the wreckage and the black box

beamender99 19th May 2016 08:20

From another forum

Ships diverted to search area approx 200km due N of Alexandria
AIS Vessel Tracking - AIS Positions Maps | AIS Marine Traffic

If you check the cluster of ships close to the SofiaExpress you will find one that is stationary (Oceanus. If you use the Track option you will find that the closest ships have all change course significantly to converge towards where Oceanus is currently stationary.

main_dog 19th May 2016 08:24

French media reporting wreckage found off Karpathos... :-(

RTM Boy 19th May 2016 08:26

Given the altitude and airspeed at the point of disappearence the plane, or parts of it, will likely be quite some distance south east of the last know location, which could be in shallower parts of the Med.

Discarding the usual creative but pointless theories, all we know with any degree of certainty is that the plane disappeared suddenly at cruising altitude (or thereabouts) having just entered Egyptian airspace. The rapidity of the event suggests some kind of very sudden 'mechanical' failure - cause unknown. Realistically there are only two broad possibilities; explosive device or a sudden mechanical/structural/engine-type failure.

For some reason I can't help feeling that there is some significance in whatever happened did so just as the flight entered Egyptian airspace.

Pace 19th May 2016 08:28


whatever happened did so just as the flight entered Egyptian airspace.
Or on initialising descent ?

M-ONGO 19th May 2016 08:33

Highly improbable Pace, as the Greek's have been reported to say that they didn't answer calls to contact Cairo approaching the FIR boundary.

HeartyMeatballs 19th May 2016 08:34

I do not think there's any significance of it being inside of Egyptian airspace. If it was sabotage then how would the perpetrator know that they were in the Egyptian FIR?


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