MH17 Update
 

Breaking news on the BBC:

'Missile parts' at MH17 crash site - BBC News

MH 17 update
 

@LLuCCIFer
Or
Perhaps these are parts that the Russian backed rebels failed to clear when they "secured" the site from any inspection team.
It is probably best to let the official report come out - the results of which are most probably likely to produce concrete evidence which most predict will rejected by Russia - Putin

Must have also been quite hard for those parts to change heading by some 180° and follow the track of the aircraft to finally end at the crash site...

Unless the were embedded in the aircraft itself?

Missile parts?
 

There has been much talk about the type of fragments to be found from a missile but, if one accepts that MH was brought down by a ‘BUK’, I have always wondered why there has not been greater effort in trying to locate the nose portion of the missile (or indeed other parts). After the missile detonation a significant forward portion of the nose would have travelled on in a predictable trajectory? (Some pictures of the wreckage seem to indicate a secondary impact on the end of the port wing, which could tally with the flight path of a missile). If, as has been claimed, the location of the launcher and hence the trajectory is known, then a search area for the missile parts could be plotted? In the case of Lockerbie PA103 the crucial piece of evidence was the size of matchbox, here we are looking for something much bigger. It would not have been consumed by the detonation.

MH17 Update
 

I might be missing something but does anybody still doubt that MH17 has been downed by a SAM?
As for the circumstances it is obviously a big can of worms but the event itself seems pretty much clear?!

No, no one of sound mind that is. However, it may have come to your notice that not all human beings are of sound mind and some of these lurk in these forums! :suspect: ;)

@Gove N.T.The area was relatively quiet in July 2014, but it was the Ukrainian (Kiev) military that started a large offensive immediately after the downing of MH17, thus making it impossible for the inspectors to do their work and conduct a thorough investigation of the crash site. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...tsk-mh17-torez

In the mean time, we're >one year down the road. Plenty of time for both sides to fabricate and enhance any 'evidence' that suits their geopolitical and military objectives.

Been a long time, but there was a dutch report showing the different types of warhead fragments from differing "buk" types, IIRC I think MH17 had some fragments that were quite distinctive, shaped like l><l...:hmm:

Quite true. So let's go back to July 17, 2014 when I posted on the original thread that I thought the rebels had done it with a BUK launcher that had been seen in the rebel-controlled area earlier that day. I also noted that the rebels had claimed they'd shot down a plane, before removing these claims from the social media accounts -- but after they had been read and disseminated.

Since then, we have learned a bit more of a timeline. All this is verifiable if you wish to do so.

Roughly précised.

Fact. Three days before MH17 is shot down, rebels claim they have shot down an AN26 Ukrainian transport plane flying at 6,500 meters over rebel-held territory. The claim is true. No-one really picks up on the fact that MANPADS can't do this. Russian (note this, Russian media) report the rebels have got a BUK system which was used in the destruction of the AN26.

Fact. On the morning of July 17 an Associated Press reporter sees a BUK missile system moving through the town of Snezhnoye, close to where it is later claimed the missile was fired from. Note I say claimed, even though tracks and scorch marks were found in the field. These could have been made after the event, but why would the rebels do that?

Fact. Minutes after MH17 disappears from radar screens, rebel social media sites claim another Ukrainian transport plane has been downed. (Separatist leader Colonel) 'Strelkov’s Dispatches' is one site, Antikvariat.ru is another. "Report from the militia. In the area of Snezhnoye an AN-26 was just shot down, it has fallen somewhere beyond the Progress coal mine." (Google translate from rather ropey screenshot.)

Fact. As it becomes apparent the plane is a civilian airliner, the posts are removed.

Fact. Within five hours of the plane being downed Kiev releases what it says is a phone intercept between Igor Bezler, a rebel commander of the Russian-backed fighters, and Vasily Geranin, who is described as a colonel in the Russian Federation’s GRU (military intelligence). In that conversation, the two men confirm that “a plane has just been shot down”.

Fact - Shortly afterwards the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) release another intercept in which another separatist leader, Mykola Kozitsin, reportedly has a conversation with one of his fighters after it is apparent the plane is a civilian one. “What the **** were they flying in here for? There’s a war on,” Kozitsin says.

I'm not saying the above two paragraphs are actually true, but that was pretty quick work by Kiev if they made the recordings up.

All the above were known on the day!!

This following clip was released a year later, so perhaps belongs in the realm of conspiracy. But if this video clip is made up it is pretty impressive and has fooled the folk at News Corp. MH17 video: Rebels thought shot down plane was a Ukraine fighter jet

Add to this, Russia's embarrassing attempts to lay the blame elsewhere Russia Photoshopped satellite images to blame Ukraine for shooting down MH17 and outrageous use of it's UN veto Russia vetoes bid to set up tribunal for downed flight MH17 rather give the game away.

I stand by my post which was made, I repeat, on the day of the tragedy.

angels nice retrospective, nothing to add

I just wonder if it's only rebels responsibility or ukrainian government should have forbidden the air traffic at all in that zone, they knew rebels had BUK and they knew BUK capabilities (as they actually use it)

AreOut - I think it had to be the responsibility of Kiev, especially after the AN26 was shot down.

The rebels did not target the MH flight specifically, I think they genuinely thought they were firing at a Ukrainian military transport. The reaction of Mykola Kozitsin sums it up when he learns it was a civvie. "What the **** were they flying in here for? There's a war on!"

His question was rhetorical but a very fair one.

angels
1) After IL-76 downed in Lugansk lots of airlines started to avoid that airspace.
2) Now russian airlines fly just 10 n.m. to the east from separatist's controlled territory. It is within range of BUK.
non-russian airlines fly at least 50 n.m. away.
So think about airlines responsibility too. Even if russian terrorists didn't have BUKs or smth, they could down any passanger jet in case of it's depressurization and descending to FL100, with manpads.

Quite a while back I saw a pic on this thread showing part of the wreckage with the distinct marks of impact from a continuous expanding rod warhead just like the one in the UK Bloodhound 2. What warhead does the BUK have?

Dick W

Dick - As I understand it, the BUK has a radar controlled proximity warhead, which strikes me as being what you describe. There are people who are far more qualified than me who could no doubt go into greater detail/correct me.

TC - I agree the airlines that continued to use the routing over eastern Ukraine after the AN26 had been shot down were utterly irresponsible. I know about the IL76 being shot down in June, but thought it was a fair bit lower and could have been done by a MANPAD. Do you know more about this one?

Ukraine/UN lead investigator statement. Straight from the horses mouth. (linked to the comment. 30second comment, 8 minute interview).
https://youtu.be/fNMj-M-GDl0?t=360

Ukraine shoots down airliners too.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberi...es_Flight_1812

Big players involved in Ukraine.....clearly a hint for a more critical eye over major events in the area, after all, who's got more to gain by a false flag event, Russia or Ukraine/The West/NATO?
?Self-appointed advocate of new Ukraine?: Soros emails leaked by anti-Kiev hackers ? RT News

Where are the ATC radar tapes and the ATC communication tapes that were seized by the 'new' Ukraine special agencies' immediately after the event?
I was in the company of a high ranking person that is specialized in radar and missiles and their comment was, "if its a BUK its on the radar feed". Funny how we are not given any evidence but media/politicians opinions.


NOBODY is above suspicion until the facts are laid out on the table.

Unfortunately as big players are involved as well as political agenda's/interests are involved, the public will never know. Just another 9/11 really.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-cau...eement/5397194

jibba jabba,

You have slipped down and are stuck in the conspiracy rabbit hole if you are still bleating about the Ukrainians and the "seized" ATC tapes.

This is normal practice for aircraft accident investigation around the world. The tapes will be released to an appropriate investigating body.

ICAO Annex 13 section 5.12 (e) refers:

You do realize that the Russians agreed on the MH17 preliminary report. There is nothing being hidden in relation to the flight path or the ATC communications.

See transcript. Remember there is no discrepencies highlighted by the Russian Federation since the release of the report.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads...nteractief.pdf

If that was the case then why haven't the Russian provided these "radar tapes" showing their theory that it was a Ukrainian Buk fired from an area under Ukrainian control? If it was that easy the Russian Ministry of Defence during their sham of a media briefing would have been playing those "radar tapes" on a loop!

Almaz Antey recently briefed with the theory that it was a Ukrainian Buk from Ukrainian held territory. So where are these radar tape from Russia showing a Buk on the "radar feed" ?

MH17 'shot down by Ukrainian SAM', claims Almaz-Antey - IHS Jane's 360

jibba jabba

Fact to remember. The rebels have no planes, drones yes, planes no.

The Ukrainians forces hadn't deployed any BUKs (even if they had them) because they weren't needed. I have no proof of this, but this has the ring of truth to it.

Fact. Three days earlier the Ukrainian rebels shot down an AN26 flying at over 20,000 feet. They said so. They did not say with what. Russian media said it was with a BUK system.

Fact. They claimed over social media another transport plane had been downed on July 17 and then removed all social media references to it as it became apparent it was a civilian aircraft.

Please explain, or indeed refute, the above.

"My belief is that the missile was stolen by them from Ukrainian military stocks in Eastern Ukraine, along with much other military hardware, and was fired at what was believed to be a Ukrainian military aircraft. There had been previous Ukraine military aircraft hit by these stolen Buks in the area as well. "

they bragged about stealing ukrainian BUKs, however I tend to believe Russia has delivered them

"A key question is why Malaysian were routing through this area when most other operators had rerouted away from it once these attacks became apparent."

That's the main problem, ATC has rerouted them without any plausible reason (that I could find). Now it's the material for conspiracy theorists...

"Meanwhile, other flights continue between Russia and Ukraine as normal; Moscow to Kiev is one of the busiest air routes in the former Soviet bloc, "

Yupp, just goes to prove how silly that war is.

Where is the Source that MH17 was rerouted?
That was the Flightplan:
(FPL-MAS17-IS
-B772/H-SDFGHIJ3J5M1RWXY/LB1D1
-EHAM1000
-N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350 L980 TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED B449 RANAH L750 ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH A464 DAKUS DCT
-WMKK1137 WMSA WMKP
-EET/EDGG0017 EDWW0023 EDUU0036 EPWW0052 UKLV0135 UKBV0153 UKDV0225 URRV0255 UATT0347 UTAK0411 UTAA0432 UTAV0507 OAKX0518 OPLR0601 OPKR0616 VIDF0631 VABF0725 VECF0747 VYYF0926 VOMF0930 VTBB1013 WMFC1051 REG/9MMRD PBN/A1B1C1D1L1O1S2 SEL/QREJ DOF/140717 RMK/ACASII EQUIPPED)

TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED

I've seen it on ukrainian aviation forum but can't remember exactly where now, maybe I didn't understand properly

MH17 follows the Flight Plan, but can´t climb at PEKIT to FL350. Just before the downing, Rostov ATC wants a change to RND insteed of TAMAK.
The Reason was "we have three of them". But on this Vids there is nothing to see nearby Rostov about a Traffic problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aERAG7gFVs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh06SqVx_1Q

So why wants Rostov ATC a Route Change? I heard from an UA ATC that a Route change is not normal from RND, normaly they want a change of FL.

The final report will be published on 13 October according the Dutch OVV ..
The report will only be technical they warn , not determining who did it.

Russian Missile Maker to explain disaster...
 

Russian maker of missile that destroyed MH17 to explain disaster

Almaz-Antey, the maker of the BUK surface-to-air system that the West and Kiev believe downed MH17, said it would present its version of events at a press conference on Tuesday after holding an "experiment" that entailed detonating a missile next to a plane......

Static test next to useless
 

There's an energy difference of a few mach between encountering warhead fragments with zero relative motion between the sample aircraft and warhead.

Atmospheric density at ground level will yield a smaller kill radius than at FL370.

A pressurised fuselage at M.8 will tend to tear itself apart when structurally damaged while an unpressurised fuselage at rest will just sit there.

Sure, because a BUK missile with 75 kg of high explosive and fragments cannot shoot a passenger plane out of the sky and therefore we must conclude that MH-17 was downed by Elvis, right? :{

An exploding tape recorder can take down a 747. This is an entire book chapter on what flimsy MANPADS can do http://mercury.ethz.ch/serviceengine...ca88e/en/1.pdf . But a 5.5m long missile designed to shoot planes out of the sky at a 40 km range would never take down MH-17. :ugh:

I am waiting with excitement for the Dutch final report, coming later today, Tuesday 13th of Oct. Hopefully they will be more on time than the French and their AirAsia investigation, hmmmm...

Many newspapers have reported on the coming report lately, and Russian news have already tried to debunk claims from the not-yet-released report, LOL! One missile maker has concluded that the whole report is bollocks and of course they did not manufacture the offending non-missile that did not take down MH17.
Here is one English report on the missile manufacturers response: Russian Missile-Maker Contradicts Dutch MH17 Crash Report - ABC News

The Dutch Safety Board will publish on their English version of the site Dutch Safety Board in a few hours. Meanwhile you can read about monster trucks and shipping incidents....

GorseFires Collectif ‏@GorseFires 4 minHá 4 minutos
The cockpit was hit first and and broke off from the rest of the plane #MH17 (Dutch Safety Board)

Russian Market Retweeted
Gordon Darroch ‏@GordonDarroch 4 minHá 4 minutos
Dutch Safety Board: Ukrainian airspace should have been closed at time of #MH17 crash, risk not properly evaluated.

Good they have mentioned it.

Sounds like they have been told what to, "understand"!

Video: MH17: Russian missile company seeks to debunk official report into air disaster - Telegraph

So we finally come full circle and can once again safely assume that navigating over an active war-zone can be really deleterious to the health and safety of one's passengers and crew. At least we can now confidently exclude the excited ramblings of the less mentally stable and/or more rabidly nationalistic among us. Any further discussion on this subject will most likely continue to be decidedly within the realm of the conspiracy theorists and political agitators who have come to infest this site.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=163&v=KDiLEyT9spI

Looks like a thorough investigation at least.

Given what happened to MS17, can I ask about any similar safety implications to all those aircraft routing Europe- Middle East?. I appreciate that most commercial carriers are avoiding Syria & Iraq and are routing Turkey-Iran airspace. I presume Russian missiles are being launched from the Caspian sea. Are risk assessments made about this airspace? - whereas in MH17 Ukraine this didn't take place.

Info links to remain in the loop
 

Final report document: http://cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documen...7-crash-en.pdf

Final report summary from Aviation Herald (factual source without sensationalism): Crash: Malaysia B772 near Donetsk on Jul 17th 2014, aircraft was shot down

Video reconstruction of the flight (3 min): Animatie vlucht MH17 | NOS

Video reconstruction of the impact (2 min): Animatie neerhalen MH17 | NOS

If the Russian cruise missiles are what you are referring to, they don't go up to FL altitudes. They go up in the air, and then tend to fly to their target at low level to take advantage of terrain masking. The most recent launch was a Russian Missile very similar to a Tomahawk. Those, at least, aren't a risk to commercial air carriers except in the terminal area during approach/landing, or takeoff/departure -- and that is if whomever launched it didn't do any mission planning.

Apart from a reference in an image caption on page 127, no other credit or reference to Pprune which seems to have predicted everything on the luchtime TV news - in these pages, months ago.

They have released a bunch of materials: the MH-17 report, a separate report about passenger information, an 'about the investigation' document, a brochure, videos and a media package consisting of photos and videos. It is all here: Dutch Safety Board

Shirley you're not serious?

Gridl0k - It was all fairly clear on the day itself mate. The rebels should not have bragged about downing an aircraft before checking what they had actually downed.

Go back to the original thread, or see my post from a couple of months ago.