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MH17 Update

Old 11th Aug 2015, 12:14
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MH17 Update

Breaking news on the BBC:

'Missile parts' at MH17 crash site - BBC News
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 12:55
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But they say they have not proved a "causal connection" between the parts and the crash. MH17 crashed in an area held by pro-Russian rebels in July 2014, killing all 298 people on board.
MH17: Ukraine crash site 'yields Russian missile parts' - BBC News
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 13:33
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MH 17 update

Perhaps these are parts that the Russian backed rebels failed to clear when they "secured" the site from any inspection team.
It is probably best to let the official report come out - the results of which are most probably likely to produce concrete evidence which most predict will rejected by Russia - Putin
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 14:18
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Must have also been quite hard for those parts to change heading by some 180° and follow the track of the aircraft to finally end at the crash site...
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 17:13
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Unless the were embedded in the aircraft itself?
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 17:38
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Missile parts?

There has been much talk about the type of fragments to be found from a missile but, if one accepts that MH was brought down by a ‘BUK’, I have always wondered why there has not been greater effort in trying to locate the nose portion of the missile (or indeed other parts). After the missile detonation a significant forward portion of the nose would have travelled on in a predictable trajectory? (Some pictures of the wreckage seem to indicate a secondary impact on the end of the port wing, which could tally with the flight path of a missile). If, as has been claimed, the location of the launcher and hence the trajectory is known, then a search area for the missile parts could be plotted? In the case of Lockerbie PA103 the crucial piece of evidence was the size of matchbox, here we are looking for something much bigger. It would not have been consumed by the detonation.
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 18:42
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MH17 Update

I might be missing something but does anybody still doubt that MH17 has been downed by a SAM?
As for the circumstances it is obviously a big can of worms but the event itself seems pretty much clear?!
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 19:24
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I might be missing something but does anybody still doubt that MH17 has been downed by a SAM?
No, no one of sound mind that is. However, it may have come to your notice that not all human beings are of sound mind and some of these lurk in these forums!
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Old 11th Aug 2015, 20:36
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  1. Any bits from the warhead not imbedded in the recovered wreckage or remains found on the ground would be difficult to distinguish from the considerable other ordinance expended in the area.
  2. Larger identifiable bits have most likely been removed from the scene
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Old 12th Aug 2015, 11:58
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Been a long time, but there was a dutch report showing the different types of warhead fragments from differing "buk" types, IIRC I think MH17 had some fragments that were quite distinctive, shaped like l><l...
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Old 12th Aug 2015, 20:12
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Plenty of time for both sides to fabricate and enhance any 'evidence' that suits their geopolitical and military objectives.
Quite true. So let's go back to July 17, 2014 when I posted on the original thread that I thought the rebels had done it with a BUK launcher that had been seen in the rebel-controlled area earlier that day. I also noted that the rebels had claimed they'd shot down a plane, before removing these claims from the social media accounts -- but after they had been read and disseminated.

Since then, we have learned a bit more of a timeline. All this is verifiable if you wish to do so.

Roughly précised.

Fact. Three days before MH17 is shot down, rebels claim they have shot down an AN26 Ukrainian transport plane flying at 6,500 meters over rebel-held territory. The claim is true. No-one really picks up on the fact that MANPADS can't do this. Russian (note this, Russian media) report the rebels have got a BUK system which was used in the destruction of the AN26.

Fact. On the morning of July 17 an Associated Press reporter sees a BUK missile system moving through the town of Snezhnoye, close to where it is later claimed the missile was fired from. Note I say claimed, even though tracks and scorch marks were found in the field. These could have been made after the event, but why would the rebels do that?

Fact. Minutes after MH17 disappears from radar screens, rebel social media sites claim another Ukrainian transport plane has been downed. (Separatist leader Colonel) 'Strelkov’s Dispatches' is one site, is another. "Report from the militia. In the area of Snezhnoye an AN-26 was just shot down, it has fallen somewhere beyond the Progress coal mine." (Google translate from rather ropey screenshot.)

Fact. As it becomes apparent the plane is a civilian airliner, the posts are removed.

Fact. Within five hours of the plane being downed Kiev releases what it says is a phone intercept between Igor Bezler, a rebel commander of the Russian-backed fighters, and Vasily Geranin, who is described as a colonel in the Russian Federation’s GRU (military intelligence). In that conversation, the two men confirm that “a plane has just been shot down”.

Fact - Shortly afterwards the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) release another intercept in which another separatist leader, Mykola Kozitsin, reportedly has a conversation with one of his fighters after it is apparent the plane is a civilian one. “What the **** were they flying in here for? There’s a war on,” Kozitsin says.

I'm not saying the above two paragraphs are actually true, but that was pretty quick work by Kiev if they made the recordings up.

All the above were known on the day!!

This following clip was released a year later, so perhaps belongs in the realm of conspiracy. But if this video clip is made up it is pretty impressive and has fooled the folk at News Corp. MH17 video: Rebels thought shot down plane was a Ukraine fighter jet

Add to this, Russia's embarrassing attempts to lay the blame elsewhere Russia Photoshopped satellite images to blame Ukraine for shooting down MH17 and outrageous use of it's UN veto Russia vetoes bid to set up tribunal for downed flight MH17 rather give the game away.

I stand by my post which was made, I repeat, on the day of the tragedy.
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Old 13th Aug 2015, 23:44
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angels nice retrospective, nothing to add

I just wonder if it's only rebels responsibility or ukrainian government should have forbidden the air traffic at all in that zone, they knew rebels had BUK and they knew BUK capabilities (as they actually use it)
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Old 14th Aug 2015, 18:42
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AreOut - I think it had to be the responsibility of Kiev, especially after the AN26 was shot down.

The rebels did not target the MH flight specifically, I think they genuinely thought they were firing at a Ukrainian military transport. The reaction of Mykola Kozitsin sums it up when he learns it was a civvie. "What the **** were they flying in here for? There's a war on!"

His question was rhetorical but a very fair one.
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Old 15th Aug 2015, 05:01
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1) After IL-76 downed in Lugansk lots of airlines started to avoid that airspace.
2) Now russian airlines fly just 10 n.m. to the east from separatist's controlled territory. It is within range of BUK.
non-russian airlines fly at least 50 n.m. away.
So think about airlines responsibility too. Even if russian terrorists didn't have BUKs or smth, they could down any passanger jet in case of it's depressurization and descending to FL100, with manpads.
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Old 15th Aug 2015, 13:39
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Quite a while back I saw a pic on this thread showing part of the wreckage with the distinct marks of impact from a continuous expanding rod warhead just like the one in the UK Bloodhound 2. What warhead does the BUK have?

Dick W
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Old 16th Aug 2015, 15:50
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Dick - As I understand it, the BUK has a radar controlled proximity warhead, which strikes me as being what you describe. There are people who are far more qualified than me who could no doubt go into greater detail/correct me.

TC - I agree the airlines that continued to use the routing over eastern Ukraine after the AN26 had been shot down were utterly irresponsible. I know about the IL76 being shot down in June, but thought it was a fair bit lower and could have been done by a MANPAD. Do you know more about this one?
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 01:18
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Ukraine/UN lead investigator statement. Straight from the horses mouth. (linked to the comment. 30second comment, 8 minute interview).

Ukraine shoots down airliners too.....

Big players involved in Ukraine.....clearly a hint for a more critical eye over major events in the area, after all, who's got more to gain by a false flag event, Russia or Ukraine/The West/NATO?
?Self-appointed advocate of new Ukraine?: Soros emails leaked by anti-Kiev hackers ? RT News

Where are the ATC radar tapes and the ATC communication tapes that were seized by the 'new' Ukraine special agencies' immediately after the event?
I was in the company of a high ranking person that is specialized in radar and missiles and their comment was, "if its a BUK its on the radar feed". Funny how we are not given any evidence but media/politicians opinions.

NOBODY is above suspicion until the facts are laid out on the table.

Unfortunately as big players are involved as well as political agenda's/interests are involved, the public will never know. Just another 9/11 really.

Last edited by jibba_jabba; 17th Aug 2015 at 01:55. Reason: Youtube embed did not work.
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 09:27
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jibba jabba,

You have slipped down and are stuck in the conspiracy rabbit hole if you are still bleating about the Ukrainians and the "seized" ATC tapes.

This is normal practice for aircraft accident investigation around the world. The tapes will be released to an appropriate investigating body.

ICAO Annex 13 section 5.12 (e) refers:

You do realize that the Russians agreed on the MH17 preliminary report. There is nothing being hidden in relation to the flight path or the ATC communications.

The draft preliminary report has been sent to the Accredited Representatives of the States that participate in the investigation, Malaysia, Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, the United States of America and Australia for review. All Accredited Representatives have sent a reaction. The Dutch Safety Board assessed the provided suggestions and amended the report where appropriate.
See transcript. Remember there is no discrepencies highlighted by the Russian Federation since the release of the report.

I was in the company of a high ranking person that is specialized in radar and missiles and their comment was, "if its a BUK its on the radar feed".
If that was the case then why haven't the Russian provided these "radar tapes" showing their theory that it was a Ukrainian Buk fired from an area under Ukrainian control? If it was that easy the Russian Ministry of Defence during their sham of a media briefing would have been playing those "radar tapes" on a loop!

Almaz Antey recently briefed with the theory that it was a Ukrainian Buk from Ukrainian held territory. So where are these radar tape from Russia showing a Buk on the "radar feed" ?

MH17 'shot down by Ukrainian SAM', claims Almaz-Antey - IHS Jane's 360
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Old 17th Aug 2015, 21:34
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jibba jabba

Fact to remember. The rebels have no planes, drones yes, planes no.

The Ukrainians forces hadn't deployed any BUKs (even if they had them) because they weren't needed. I have no proof of this, but this has the ring of truth to it.

Fact. Three days earlier the Ukrainian rebels shot down an AN26 flying at over 20,000 feet. They said so. They did not say with what. Russian media said it was with a BUK system.

Fact. They claimed over social media another transport plane had been downed on July 17 and then removed all social media references to it as it became apparent it was a civilian aircraft.

Please explain, or indeed refute, the above.
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Old 19th Aug 2015, 21:45
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"My belief is that the missile was stolen by them from Ukrainian military stocks in Eastern Ukraine, along with much other military hardware, and was fired at what was believed to be a Ukrainian military aircraft. There had been previous Ukraine military aircraft hit by these stolen Buks in the area as well. "

they bragged about stealing ukrainian BUKs, however I tend to believe Russia has delivered them

"A key question is why Malaysian were routing through this area when most other operators had rerouted away from it once these attacks became apparent."

That's the main problem, ATC has rerouted them without any plausible reason (that I could find). Now it's the material for conspiracy theorists...

"Meanwhile, other flights continue between Russia and Ukraine as normal; Moscow to Kiev is one of the busiest air routes in the former Soviet bloc, "

Yupp, just goes to prove how silly that war is.
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