Use of EXP Expedite Descent button is prohibited by most operators due to the automatics inability to control the speed properly. This was quite an old bus, so probably had it fitted, but I'd be surprised if Germanwings allowed its use.
It's not really needed, as you can achieve a safe 5000fpm simply with open descent and very careful use of speedbrake. All this talk of 3500 fom being a hi speed dive is nonsense, certainly a smartish descent but the vs amber caution only come on around 5000fpm. Sorry can't remember the exact figure. And no, the speed brakes do not automatically deploy, the aircraft protects itself from over speed with a gentle pitch up to recover the normal sped range. |
Quote: Departure was delayed by half hour.The spokeswoman VP couldnt account for why it did when interrogated by a journalist. Potentially a cause of delay? |
Originally Posted by macdo
(Post 8914951)
Rather depends if the fixed O2 is switched on. Has been known...
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There is no passport control flying between BCN and DUS.
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58000FH is hardly "old". Well within the A320 design life. Some information can be found here. |
Timing
Apologies if it has already been answered but why is there an apparent discrepancy in timings from the FR24 information and the timings that the media and Germanwings are saying was last contact?
FR24 had last contact at 09.41 yet Germanwings says it was 09.53? |
if the A320 had a decompression then the 'procedural thing' to do is descend to 10000' PDQ, squawk 7700 and tell ATC what is happening and what you need in terms of airspace - is that so?
It should not be difficult to see that if the "get on Oxy" goes wrong, life is not looking good (and not saying that happened here). It is far more important than starting the descent. |
There is no passport control flying between BCN and DUS. Interflug is online now Report Post Reply |
Probably not relevant, but this airframe sustained a bit of flap damage back in 2002.
http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports...2-07-09-UK.pdf |
An Australian journalist in London says that one of the school kids had lost/misplaced their passport and that at one point there was concern that they would not make the flight. Potentially a cause of delay? |
This is more of a sign how bad a magazine "Der Spiegel" has become. They just cannot imagine that such an accident and the loss of colleagues you possibly personally know can make you unfit to fly. I have written to "Der Spiegel" and asked them to substantiate their claim or to drop this wild speculation. |
An explosive decompression would be more in line with a lower ROD as well as with the theory of the crew being unconscious until impact.
Pure speculation, but I would incline to the theory of an uncontained structural damage leading to sudden decompression and to the crew to initiate an emergency descent (with a lower rate due to the need to not increase speed) having made the initial procedures, but failing to fine tune them, due to having lost consciousness. Thence the lack of communication with ATC... |
Originally Posted by BeT
(Post 8913776)
GWI 18G
D-AIPX ex-DLH airframe. |
Well, what did you expect, it s all DLH in Germany, except Air Berlin. |
if you had a depressurisation, an engine failure, a cabin fire or say a windscreen blown out (is that poss?) a high level birdstrike into the windscreen (how likely could that be?) would you still stay on track and descend into the mountains? |
There is no passport control flying between BCN and DUS In which case a pax with missing ID might be a problem, albeit solvable. |
So like a UK domestic flight? ID still needed which is likely to be a passport, national identity card or driving license. In which case a pax with missing ID might be a problem, albeit solvable. You can get past security and to the gate without ID everywhere in Europe, though, if your destination is in the Schengen area. This combination makes it dangerous to miss your return flight just at the gate as one does not notice the missing ID on the flight ex Germany (happened to me in France and was resolved by my airline ID card after a lot of discussions only) |
The (reported) total lack of communications from the crew for the entire duration of the descent is strongly suggestive of crew incapacitation.
It appears from what we know thus far that the crew have commanded the descent, and the average rate would appear to be consistent (I would imagine) with speed brakes out, or at least a speed of close to Mmo/Vmo. I can only speak for the 737, and am led to believe A320 family is similar in the drills, so imagine (via the AFS) a random lower altitude would be initially set (just to start the descent ) with one of the follow up actions being to come back to it to set 10,000 or MSA (whichever higher) implying that, if you lost consciousness after commencing the descent, you may continue down to . . . . well, whatever altitude was set by default on the panel (could be as low as 0000) I have heard reliable reports of a 737 flying around for a significant amount of time (lets say more than 1 day ) with the crew 02 turned off down at the bottle due to a maintenance error. It appears that the 02 expended during the mandated crew 02 tests done during this period, was not significant compared to what was left in the line between bottle/mask. God knows how the crew(s) who flew it 2 ? 4 ? or however many sectors for however many days must have felt when they heard they operated it, with but a few seconds worth, of 02 available in the lines . . . personally, I think I would feel quite sick. Very short odds indeed for an aircraft with a similar maintenance whoopsy to coincidentally have a decompression requiring the use of crew 02, but, that's what Murphy is for. . . . . . . |
EMER DESC (31 March 2013)
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Nigel ,the double loop is meant to refine the original fcu selections once the aircraft is descending. The RoD achieved is half that quoted in the FCTM
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Apologies if this point has already been covered but do commercial pilots undergo training to experience the effects of depressurisation and hypoxia? I see from my logbook that in a seven year flying period in the RAF I underwent depressurisation training on four occasions, two by means of a simulated explosive decompression (quite dramatic) and two from the more insidious form of slow loss of oxygen. One thing that struck me was how quickly you recovered when oxygen was restored. I appreciate that loss of pressurisation drills are carried out in the Flight Sim, etc, but these dont give you the experience of what happens to your body in the event a real depressurisation
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The RoD achieved is half that quoted in the FCTM |
Germanwings-Crews in Düsseldorf und Stuttgart verweigern Start - SPIEGEL ONLINE
In it (about half way) there is mention that the aircraft was grounded in DUS in AOG mode due to a problem with the "Nose Landing Door". Surely did not cause the CFIT. |
Crash site from the air
http://download.media.tagesschau.de/....webm.h264.mp4
and in HD http://download.media.tagesschau.de/...webxl.h264.mp4 Video of the crash site from helicopter. |
Re decompression training.
This is all done in the course of a normal LPC/OPC as part of a three year training cycle. Often incorporated into a LOFt exercise. Not many civil pilots will have experienced the stuff that the military do, unless previously in the forces. |
rapid decompression?
I would speculate that decompression issue in the climb (with crew incapacitated) is inconsistent with the A/C going into descent shortly after reaching CRZ ALT.
It would have stayed in CRZ ALT or selected ALT until out of fuel if I am not mistaken (see Helios). Somewhere in the press it mentioned that A/C had come out of maintenance on Monday. If this is not significant then it might at least be noteworthy. FL380 is pretty close to FL390 which is the standard max. service ceiling for A320. What's the UTC? A few seconds? |
Another tragedy in our sky's.
I think the strangest thing about all the major accidents over the last 13 months have occurred at cruise level, what has always been seen as the safest part of flight |
Very Tough for Recovery Crews
The condition of the remains will be a serious challenge and it's much harder when children are involved:(
Many of those involved in the recovery of SR111 needed counseling. I hope the French authorities will ensure help is made available to the recovery Crews. Significant debris has collected in the drainage channels implying initial impact on the rock face above. |
The maintenance on monday might have just been a daily check.... the C check maintenance has been disclosed already. I would not get caught up on the 'coming out of maintenance' scenario
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Having done drills, not in the chamber, fitting a mask to a headset it was not easy or particularly quick. One question would be how often and when such drills were practised.
Then the question of pre-flight checks. Do the pilots test for flow every leg? |
Speed question
Can anyone help me (non pilot, sorry) explain why the plane's (ground)speed didn't increase even though it was descending with almost 4000 fpm?
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There is a test button on each of the masks where a yellow/white ball can be seen in the test window can be seen during the test..... coupled with this the oxygen pressure of the bottle can be seen on the ECAM
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Can anyone help me (non pilot, sorry) explain why the plane's (ground)speed didn't increase even though it was descending with almost 4000 fpm? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Brake_A320.JPG |
groundspeed in descent
Mathematically speaking, with everything else being equal (IAS, wind etc.) the G/S should decrease when going into descent. As most descents are at a relatively small angle though (3-5 deg FPA?) the difference should be small.
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Crew Oxygen Bottle Shut-Off Valve
There were some references to the flight-crew oxygen system status in previous posts.
In my company we had incidents where the shutoff-valve of the replacement oxygen bottle was not fully opened by maintenance after installation - just enough to give a correct gauge readout. And it took several crews / flights until the first correctly done system check detected that fault by observing the decreasing supply-pressure. |
@MatrixMan: That incident was 4000fpm from FL31 to FL27. This is from FL38 to FL06 + CFIT. Why was the crew not able to recover during this decent phase?
Lufthansa mentioned all Airbus in service are latest software, procedures and AoA probes - according to latest safety bulletin. |
An emergency descent following a decompression with structural damage must be done in speed mode, i.e., the pilot changes from Mach to speed in order not to accelerate the aircraft during descent.
The rate of descent is therefore much lesser than when done at MMO. An emergency descent caused by a catastrophic event is a brutal event and exposes the pilots (and passengers) for a longer time to hipoxy especially if masks are not properly don. We normally train the emergency descent to be done in two steps/loops: the first thing to do is to turn and pull the altitude selector to a lower altitude, then the heading, the speed knob and the speed-brakes. This is done having in mind the need to start an immediate descent not loosing time with details (what altitude? What heading? What speed?) Only on the next loop we fine-tune those parameters. They may have failed to terminate the second loop, due to having lost consciousness. |
While the door in and of itself might not be in a pressurized area - if it were to come loose, could it have ripped the skin of the aircraft, and could that rip have extended into a pressurized area? Alternately, if the door came off entirely, could it have hit and damaged another part of the aircraft? |
agree this could be possible.........we have a duplicate inspection in our company when we replace crew oxygen cylinders to ensure fully open isolation valve
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Tankertrashnav, Post#310 (at this moment)
In response to your query, I know of no airline/aviation authority that offers or mandates that eye opening training for its flight crew. $ $ $ as usual. |
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