and this

https://twitter.com/varlamov/status/...544640/photo/1

SA 6
 

Words on Dutch TV: shotdown by SA 6

This NOTAM is about Crimea and international waters, not that territory.

And for those writing about Russia, the plane was in a Ukranian airspace and crashed on the Ukranian territory,

"CNN just reported on-air that pro-Russian separatists claimed to have shot down a second Ukrainian military plane shortly before the report of MH17 being missing. They were careful not to say the planes were one and the same, but the lack now of a downed Ukrainian plane does make one wonder."

Cue rumors and conspiracy theories, but apparently there were some tweets...

NOTAM or otherwise, I don't understand why commercial traffic is flying over a conflict zone where only days ago a transport aircraft was shot down at high altitude. Absolutely bonkers.

There are people in Ukraine / Russia who know who pulled the trigger to launch this " assumed " SAM , they will be found and they will be punished.
Considering all the time spent searching for the reasons of MH 370's disappearance , the search for the culprits in this case will be swifter and far more determined.
If it was a national military involved , a ban on their nations' airlines would at least be a minimal consideration.

Potentially OT, but lots of traffic is transitting this area as many companies have routed traffic north of Irak coming up towards Europe. I passed the exact same spot early this morning as SLF.

I would not hold my breath for anyone getting punished. Look up what happened to the Russians that brought down KAL007, and Americans that brought down Iran Air 655.

It's all about keeping the accountants happy by taking the shortest possible route until it all goes wrong, like today. I doubt that you will be able to get an MH accountant to answer the phone right now. I hope they sleep well tonight.

Nickfisher, he means the Itavia DC-9 (Italian) in the 80s.

First, the plane was shot well inside the Ukrainian territory. The "Buk" system cannot operate at such ranges if it were deployed on the Russian territory.



Second, the Ukrainian army does have Buk systems. And they are notorious for erroneously shooting down a plane coming from Israel to Russia some 10-15 years ago. However, I can hardly believe they did it, unless anybody went totally mad or planned a provocation to blame Russia.


There were unconfirmed rumors that the Ukrainian rebels in the south-eastern part of the country have recently got 1-2 Buk complexes after their successful offensive towards some (Ukrainian) army locations (home bases). In a similar way they got some IFVs and artillery systems earlier because the army is very weak. If the latter is true and the system is operative and in use, then most likely the rebels thought it was a transport aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force. They shot down one or two of them very recently.



Anyway, there should be E-3 Sentry and also the Russian A-50s monitoring the conflict area from far away, so the records should exist. Also, the flight recorders should not be damaged.

Ukrainian rebel commander posted something about shooting down a Antonov at about the same time MH flight crasht......I can see it happening that way, rebel crew with a missile system of what they are not exact sure how to handle it, let alone being able to recognize plane types on FL 33.

I cannot believe that the Russians would have shot this aircraft down, or that he Ukrainian Government would have either.

The rebels, now that's another story.

But please keep in mind, all we really know is that it crashed.

This NOTAM apparently refers to the Russian takeover of the Crimea:

Reuters 03 Apr. 2014

Europe safety agency urges airlines to avoid Crimean airspace | Reuters

I could not find any NOTAM warning against overflying of the war theater, even after several aircraft had been shot down.

According to a BBC interview of an ex ambassador to the Ukraine, a pro-Russian rebel leader has admitted they shot MH17 down, thinking it was a Ukrainian transport plane.

Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner in 2001
 

Ukraine admits it shot down Russian airliner - Telegraph

Departed Tel Aviv so the Israeli's got involved in the investigation.

This a/c came down near the Ukrainian/Russian border surely the slant range will almost certainly mean the missile started life in Russia from a ground based truck
If this is proved this could lead to war.

The rebels have removed references to the shooting down of another AN26 that they posted earlier today.

AP reported the rebels had a Buk launcher.

I am jumping to conclusions here. :(

The rebels did it.

Is it a safe assumption that these mobile SAM launchers don't have the capability to receive commercial transponder information? Do they function using primary radar only? I would think a shootdown that was coordinated by a government would have looked for transponder info before launching. Of course that assumes rational actors.

URRV V6158/14 17JUL0000-31AUG2359 EST
DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FRNG FM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA, :ooh:

Almost no chance it came from Ukraine military. The rebels don't have any planes, so they posed no threat from the air. No risk of shooting off a missile. The culprits are either Russia or the Russian-armed rebels. The answer may well come down to what hardware shot it down.

What a terrible terrible waste of life, and so many people's lives ruined for ever today. Dreadful.

Putin broke the news to Obama because the plane crashed right before (or during) a scheduled phone call.

This includes many new details. It also says that it was far enough inside Ukraine that a Russian Buk couldn't have reached it. That point will be argued.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/offici...154029763.html

Just going by past history, if armed forces of a country did this, it will go away quietly with some sort of civil suit (Iran Air 655, KAL 007). If it was the rebels, they will have the hammer of Thor come down upon them.

rebels commanders deny involvement
 

In reply to #54
using the link you provided leads to the info, that the separatists commanders deny involvement in the downing of the plane. They say that they only have weaponry able to reach to 3000 meters.

@rjamesjones on Twitter:

On rebel commander Strelkov's page "We warned you not to fly in our sky." He
thought they'd shot a Ukrainian plane.

vk.com/strelkov_info

Could be the angle, but the only comment I'll make is that the door size on the photo of the two guys standing on fuselage seems wrong for a 777.... even for the LR3 on a 777-300...

He takes up the whole door frame, you can easily board two at a time through a 777 door.

Where did this photo come from?

Russia/Soviet Union has done it before. KAL Flt. 700 anyone?

New press release by so-called "rebel government":


"The B777 was shot down by the Ukranian military fighter jet, that attacked the airliner, it split in two parts and fell down. After that the fighter jet was shot down by our forces. Now we are looking for it on the ground."

Y.M.
Dunno when you last operated to LHR, but we go nowhere near Ukraine, way too far south! Routing not changed for a good while, and Scandinavia quite normal.

rgbrock1 The Ukrainians said it was shot down by a Buk launcher. They may be pointing fingers.

It's too early for anyone besides the responsible party to determine the cause of the crash.

And for balance other accidents have happened.....

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@ givemewings

FFS, emergency exits!!!!!!!!!! Color and cheatline are Malaysian!!!

In the news they say around 80 kids on board, about 20 pax with US-passport...

Why is everybody so sure it was a missile, it seems like the most likely cause, but is there any 100% confirmation?

The crash site supposedly is Grabovo, Donetsk Oblast, which would be about 30 KM northwest of the Russian Ukraine border. If so, forward momentum would suggest it was hit further west.

Do all airlines track over Ukraine these days?
 

What was that airliner doing in that airspace? Do United/Delta/American/BA/Virgin etc. avoid it or what?

The last rough reported radar hit.

The last reported area of the crash site... roughly....

http://i.imgur.com/TpAiRusl.png

250NM? Something's not adding up

Black box found 60KM from Russian border.... which again confuses this

There are NOT only two (rebels and ukrainian army) forces there!
At least two more are fighting there: National guard (ex-"Right sector" from western Ukraine) and private!!! army of Kolomoisky (local oligarсh).