PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Rumours & News (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news-13/)
-   -   Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost.html)

xcitation 12th Mar 2014 16:23


Could you please elaborate on Hypoxia (or for that matter aircraft air supply suddenly contaminated with some kind of life ending substance). I believe this is the only angle that has not been debated to death on this forum.
Slow pinhole leaks can be as dangerous as a rapid decompression. The resulting insidious onset of hypoxia on the brain can be similar to alcohol intoxication. The effects vary by individual: impaired cognitive function, euphoria and overconfidence, lethargy or angry and un-cooperative. There are sensors and alarms to warn of loss in cabin pressure which should result in immediate action.

Helios Airways Flight 522 is a tragic example.

DarkStar 12th Mar 2014 16:24


Did the retired ex-BA F/O have any theories why a hypoxic crew would turn off the transponder?
If I remember correctly he said ....'that's a tricky one'

Orenda 12th Mar 2014 16:28

Indonesian radar coverage
 
I have seen numerous postings about whether the Indonesian military or civilian radars saw anything of MH370. Indonesia's military radar coverage is spotty at best and non-existant in many parts of the Archipelago unless a naval vessel happens to be in the area.

Lost in Saigon 12th Mar 2014 16:33


Originally Posted by xcitation (Post 8369622)
Slow pinhole leaks can be as dangerous as a rapid decompression. The resulting insidious onset of hypoxia on the brain can be similar to alcohol intoxication. The effects vary by individual: impaired cognitive function, euphoria and overconfidence, lethargy or angry and un-cooperative. There are sensors and alarms to warn of loss in cabin pressure which should result in immediate action.

Helios Airways Flight 522 is a tragic example.


A slow pinhole leak is only dangerous if the crew allows themselves to become distracted to the point they ignore the aircraft's automated warnings.

When the cabin altitude reaches 10,000 feet an alarm will notify the crew. At roughly 13,000 feet the passenger oxygen masks will drop.

paultr 12th Mar 2014 16:35

@RetiredF4
Your post regarding the way military primary radar works makes perfect sense. I can imagine that the identity of commercial air traffic is appended to its related target/return. As you say, the military radar operative would know exactly what the target was that had now turned around and was flying back over his airspace.

I have some experience of using primary radar in a recreational marine environment and when you are monitoring radar 'in anger' such as thick fog it is quite easy to work out what is what after working the set for a while. The system we use for secondary radar is called AIS and all commercial traffic is tagged with name/course/speed etc. The Malaysian military radar operative would have known what all the targets on his set were - otherwise what is the point of monitoring it at all ?

I realise this is more or less a repeat of your post but I find it staggering that 5 days on, the Malaysian authorities are saying it needs further analysis.

mixture 12th Mar 2014 16:39


I have no experience with aviation technology, but with TTE it should be possible to run Inflight Entertainment on the same network as the flight-control system.
Read the description !


TEthernet® (SAE AS6802) is a scalable, open real-time Ethernet platform used for safety-related applications primarily in transportation industries and industrial automation

TTEthernet-based solutions provide:
determinism
availability
safety
fault tolerance
security
hard real-time operation
synchronization
None of those are features you need for IFE systems. Its quite obvious from the manufacturers description what it's for !

golfbananajam 12th Mar 2014 16:44

response to post #2358
 
BBC "expert" apparently researched this a bit earlier today and the oil company operating the rig claim to have no employee of that name on that rig

Possibly another red herring

VinRouge 12th Mar 2014 16:46


A slow pinhole leak is only dangerous if the crew allows themselves to become distracted to the point they ignore the aircraft's automated warnings.
Slow pinhole leak? Have you seen the size of the outflow valve?!

Ian W 12th Mar 2014 16:49


Originally Posted by Lost in Saigon (Post 8369653)
A slow pinhole leak is only dangerous if the crew allows themselves to become distracted to the point they ignore the aircraft's automated warnings.

When the cabin altitude reaches 10,000 feet an alarm will notify the crew. At roughly 13,000 feet the passenger oxygen masks will drop.

Not only that but ACARS would have issued a message with the Cabin Altitude warning. This would occur before anyone was affected. No such ACARS has been admitted to.

hogey74 12th Mar 2014 16:56

regarding the oil rig report
 
I wonder if something like this could be a factor ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_(mirage)

The email from that Kiwi engineer reads pretty credibly so I took it seriously enough to plot his position on Google Earth and do some Googling on things that might affect perceptions of distance and how he reported that the burning stopped mid-air. I've wasted enough time on youtube to have noticed that nuclear explosions often seem to have strange light propagation effects. I googled the good old Min Min light and found the above effect. This situation while obviously uncertain, seems to at least not rule it out.

Just wondering if maybe the bearing is close but the distance isn't? The strong light of a bright fire bouncing off layers might account for the fact that the burning stopped mid air?

LASJayhawk 12th Mar 2014 16:59


Is it really that ridiculous? Maybe you should look up Hugh Teso on Google and read about what he did. You might be surprised.

And, for the sceptics, he demonstrated the hack in action with real aircraft computers.

It's actually a pretty simple exploit, using ACARS to substitute data from base with data he sends from the smartphone. He was able to also heading and altitude via the exploit. He also managed to hack the ADS-B transmitter.

Any system that transmits data wirelessly can, eventually, be hacked. All it needs is access to the OS used and, eventually, the hacker will find a way in. It's a matter of 'convincing' the aircraft's systems that you're giving it the real data.
It made an impressive display, but I highly doubt you could pull it off in the real world.

While there is a "master" buss that most everything talks to, most boxes output multiple busses, some of which only go to 1 place. For example an ADIRU may have 1 talk to everyone bus, 1 that only talks to FMS 1, 1 that only talks to ADIRU 2, etc.

If the FMS sees different data from the master buss, and different data from it's protected bus, it will raise its BS flag. I have seen this real world in a Hawker, the MFD symbol generator was spitting out mismatched data, and both Universal FMS's refused to go into approach mode. (I found the fault, by pulling breakers one at a time till they went into approach mode)

Upshot is, in the real world, you could make the avionics throw a temper tantrum and give the pilots a headache, but you couldn't turn the bird into your own personal drone.

Old Boeing Driver 12th Mar 2014 17:02

Post by Bloxin
 
Take a look at Bloxin's very first post here. # 2370 He may be on to something.

I know the O2 bottle stuff has been discussed, but follow this.

The O2 bottle lets go, and renders transponders and comms inop. Maybe started a decompression.

The captain starts an a/p descent an hits the nearest TRN waypoint, which was shown by Tarzanboy, to be on the north end of Malaysia.

The plane turns, descends some, and tracks to TRN, then westward. The crew passes out due to no O2.

Maybe pax, cabin crew as well? Don't know where their O2 is located, or could be damaged by the original problem.

Just another set of ideas.

GarageYears 12th Mar 2014 17:08

@ mabuhay_2000:

Which you now know is not true...

Nightingale14 12th Mar 2014 17:09

The Telegraph correspondent in Malaysia put out a short video update earlier, pointing out that all the countries in that area are busy watching each other and carrying out naval exercises but not letting on to each other. So several countries may know more than they are letting on via local radar and shipping capabilities. Maybe this is why the Malaysian military backtracked over the radar tracking of MH370, did not want to nearby countries know their capability. Maybe also they tracked it further than they are letting on?

givemewings 12th Mar 2014 17:13

Pax o2 on the 777 is chemically generated, (unit at each row/section) therefore should still work even if the flight deck o2 doesn't... So theoretically the masks should still drop on auto at 14000'....

mabuhay_2000 12th Mar 2014 17:13

GarageYears
 
Actually, I have no idea whether it's true or not.

MPN11 12th Mar 2014 17:14


Originally Posted by bloxin
777: The crew oxygen bottle is mounted horizontaly on the left aft wall of the nose wheel well structure with the fittings (propelling nozzle) facing forward. This aims the bottle, in the event of a QF30 type failure, directly into the MEC containing all boxes concerned with coms and a lot more.
Before all of its energy is spent, an huge amount of damage could be caused to equipment and the bottle could, conceivably, cause a decompression.
When the crew respond by doning oxygen mask, there is no oxygen and hypoxia is the next link in this proposed chain of events.
This link is entitled "Hypothetical" and is only that. I believe it ticks a few boxes.
Hoping this post make it and generates some discussion.

Thank you. You answered some of the questions I wanted to ask.

An 'event' in that underfloor equipment bay (posted earlier with a YouTube link, and with diagrams) suggests there is a lot of collocation of equipment.

Would someone with relevant expertise advise on the consequences of a major event (deliberate or accidental) in that compartment? What equipment might be disabled as a result? Consequent Cabin depressurisation? A simple list rather than a dissertation might suffice for now.

I'm specifically thinking of SSR, Comms, FD Crew oxygen. Could that allow normal Autopilot operation whilst the FD becomes incapacitated? Thus permitting the aircraft to proceed on its way (whichever that may be) until (whatever) finally destroys flight integrity? In other words, an airborne "Marie Celeste"

despegue 12th Mar 2014 17:16

Regarding the transponder OFF reason...

One of the tasks by the PNF/FO ( company dependent) in various emergency QRH procedures, including emergency descend, is to put the Transponder to TA on a lot of types/ airlines. ( can anyone confirm this for b777?)

I have seen multiple times that the PNF in high stress situations selects the transponder from TA/RA to OFF instead of TA.

By the way, FL295 is a non normal FL, and could have been flown to avoid other traffic as described in various contingency procedures, albeit in non-radar environments.

FlyingOfficerKite 12th Mar 2014 17:18

I will always remember talking to a female project manager who worked at GCHQ.

She said that you could be tracked when your mobile phone was switched off.

We all laughed - but later I wondered if that was in fact true?

I don't know whether you can or you can't, but the point is who knows what is possible?

I've heard stories over the years from various sources about what was possible and what they have seen done. All of this is commonplace now - but seemed like science fiction 15 years ago.

ATC Watcher 12th Mar 2014 17:19

not been trough all the 120 pages, so bear with me if discussed before.

I am wondering if it was carrying cargo and if yes what was in that cargo.
That might give a new way to look at it ,especially if it was carrying something highly valuable.


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:01.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.