Running In, it ain't my idea. They signed up to the rules and regulations when they booked the ticket.

Yes. Unless you're just going to stand their meekly and snuff it.

This isn't a LCC issue people. BA charge for exit seats as do Virgin. I see nobody questioning whether they do checks on people before selecting seats (whether they charge or not). And if someone sat in an exit who was not suitable the cabin crew would feel more comfortable moving seone who's paid a £12 supplement on easyJet compared to a legacy carrier or MEB3 airlines.

Do you not feel there would be more pressure on cabin crew if the pax was a gold tier frequently flyer/1K/Exec Club. I'm quite certain if it happened on a certain Middle East airline then the cabin crew would be disciplined. Afterall it tends to be those with status who get to select the exit rows particularly on US airlines.

I cringe reading some replies on here. I miss the days when it was mainly pilots. Not spotters/trolls/armchair CEOs! Just because you watch Aircrash Investigation does not mean you are a safety expert nor are you qualified to ammend or write airline SOPs.

I was on the jet2 757 from Glasgow last Tuesday, sat in row 34, the row behind the over wing exits. The cabin steward certainly gave all the passengers sat in the exit seats very clear instructions of their role in an emergency and he then made sure there was no baggage on the floor in that area - in fact he had to make it crystal clear to one woman who wanted her handbag with her. There was no sales patter until after airborne and the seat belt signs were switched off. Only problem on our flight was a 'missing' passenger and a goosed apu.

Out of interest, how far is the drop from the flaps on a 737 to the deck?

JSL had a very valid point. Maybe it is worthwhile for the cabin crew to include in their safety brief that the overwing exits have no slides and that pax should slide of the flaps.

We don't know if Jean has read the Safety Instructions or not. If she hasn't then that is not so smart. If she has, and hasn't understood them then it should be investigated why people don't understand them.


Running In, I do get the impression that you are trolling. If you really work onboard an aircraft as you say, then you should be aware that there is no hope in hell that a member of cabin crew is going to get anywhere in the cabin apart from their evacuation position. In the Jet2 case, you got 189 people trying to evacuate an aircraft and a person will NOT be able to go against the flow of people who are trying to exit the jet.

UKpaxman
 

Out of curiosity, are you 100% sure about that?

Roe 34 sounds an awfully long way back for an overwing exit on a 757, are you sure it wasn't the configuration with no overwing exits but emergency exits just aft of the wing (naturally slide equipped I presume...)?


Not saying you're wrong, but curious. Of course, if it is the no-overwing-exit configuration, it does just go to show rather that even self-determinedly 'bright' passengers who know what they're doing can be led astray by their own preconceptions - rather than the precise details of what's actually on the safety card ;-).

Ukpaxman
 

Going off the flaps is roughly the same as going down a slide in a children's playground, a drop of about twelve feet with a 40 degree incline.

You would arrive in the ground quite fast but a lot better than the alternative.

It's as enough going against against the flow during boarding/disembarking never mind during an evacuation.

I wouldn't say the system is flawed, as such. That only happens those that make the rules stop listening to people like Jean and dismiss them out of hand as "stupid". It would be great if every single possible scenario or problem had been thought of prior to anything happening but the aircraft and the weather generally haven't read our SOP's. Nor have the passengers. And neither are exactly known for doing exactly what we expect them to do at all times.

With the demo, we have a very short time to get as much information across as we can and this is not, as suggested, to prevent delays on reaching the threshold! It's because the longer you babble on and on, the more people you lose as their attention starts to wander. That's why crew have to be trained to adapt quickly to changing circumstances and the SOP makers have to be willing to change or tweak procedures when someone ends up standing on the wing looking for a non existent slide.

Unfortunately, short of forcing people to watch 12 hours of Aircrash Investigation prior to every flight, no amount of safety procedures will remove the biggest danger to any successful evacuation. Complacency will always win.

The problem is that it doesn't make sense at all. You expect something from the crew which is physically impossible.

So I take it that may you ever find yourself in the situation described in my earlier post, that you quite happily sit there and watch your Toblerone (or god forbid worse) melt?

Running in
 

It was my understanding that you had said your piece, it would have been better to have maintained that stance.

No. We are responsible for giving people the information they need to help get themselves off the aircraft.

It's when they decide to turn around and stop the evacuation they get labelled as stupid...because surely that is what it is.

To be honest I never knew there were wing slides.

Here ya go Mr In.

So you agree.

poor jean
 

i assume all the A320 family have o/w exit slides incl 318's?

i did always knew 320's had them.


737's NG have upward hinging escape hatches as you know, where as
classic 737's and the 320 family have a 50lb? hatch to chuck out the opening
(we used to put it on the seat...but not now, or do we?)

the height to slide down off the back of the lowered flaps on a 737 isn't as much as 12' feet surely as someone posted...?

the 757-200 in some versions not with UK airlines though (AA have them operating here to UK)
and all 757-300's (Thomas Cook have them) have overwing exits same as 737 classics. you chuck out the hatch here, er no you put it ON the seat.
But do these 757 variants have slides from the o/w as they are much higher than the 737?
THEY MUST HAVE SURELY?
(do not confuse with door 3l/r which has a drop-down door and slide.)

so you expect Jean to know all this too? lol

i sit often at exit doors and never do the CC fully brief me or brief me at all.
often i say i am ex crew/airline staff so they smile and giggle and later on drinks are freeflowing should i wish (i don't)

i always ask if i should be unfamiliar with the door mechanism to be shown that and often gasps of breath from all those around me that i dare mention the thought that in 10 minutes time we maybe rapidly trying to expedite squeezing our fat bums out of the small aperture to escape it being warmly singed...

it's like cancer oooh don't mention the C word except the C here is crash or chaos and we are all too often afraid or embarrassed to discuss....

i think some posts here have been excellent and hello again mrs jetset

Running in. Page 10, and you finally cracked.

Lest we forget, it is an Internet forum. Nothing more, nothing less.

Suggest a cup of tea in a darkened room, and chant the mantra


Nothing matters, nothing actually matters at all.

Well here's a definition for you and a suggestion that you heed your own words.

JSL Remember Phoenix
 

Jet Set Lady.
I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but you did say that you would change your instructions to your cabin crew because reading this thread made you realise that there was no slide over the wing on a Boeing 737. And yet you presumabaly have thousand of hours service. And you presumably have given those "one to one briefings" hundreds (at least times ) to those passengers sitting in emergency exit row seats, although I notice that none of the vociferous posters here have been able to answer my questions about them, i.e. what is the prescribed script, what responses do you look for, does it include all the pasengers in the exit rows and so on. In all my traveling years I can remember just one instance of a passenger being asked to move because in the judgement of the CC he was too infirm to handle the task of removing the window, and that was on a TWA flight in the states. Shows how long ago that was.
Your last post says that you are not responsible for getting the passengers out of the aircraft in the event of an emergency. Did you really mean that? Go back to the incident of the BA 744 at Phoenix a few years ago, where there were the same complaints of poor communication, panic, and immobile CC. Go back and look at the thread. So should some of the other posters here. We were assured that BA would be investigating. I'm not sure what the results were. But what I and others here are arguing is that the industry and people who work in it have got their heads in the sand, because its a problem that they do not want to face . And one day it will kill people.

Trolls
 

If there are any trolls in this thread its Aand C and Lord Spandex Masher.
This is a serious issue and you guys have just tried to run it into the ground.

swordfish

"Go back to the incident of the BA 744 at Phoenix e CC. Go back and look at the thread. So should some of the other posters here. We were assured that BA would be investigating. I'm not sure what the results were."

It wasn't just a BA investigation, FWIW here's the AAIB report:


http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1320.pdf

Thanks Wiggy
 

Thanks for that link. But I think its instructive to go back to the thread here on pprune, because you will see much of the same attitudes then as are expressed here, except what is interesting is that passengers who decided to intervene and take charge of their own destiny were slagged off as cretins, even though their grasp of the seriousness of the situation was better than the CC's.
sf

How do you come to that conclusion? The cabin crew were evacuating the passengers, before themselves, from a potentially deadly situation. Some of the passengers were trying to stop the evacuation from happening.

If their grasp of the situation was better than the cabin crew then what on earth were the trying to accomplish. Manslaughter?

Running in
 

Clearly you have not said your piece so why say so ?

Clearly you have decided that no matter what the airline is totally responsible for tha actions of all the passengers and that absolves the passengers from all responsabiltity.

My stance is that the passengers should be provided with the means and information to get them off the aircraft should an emergency situation arise, as four cabin crew can't be expected to personally escort 180 passengers to the exit individually it stands to reason that the passengers have to at least listen to the safety briefing to ensure their personal safety.

You seem to have nothing constructive to say and all you do say is just negative, dispite a number of people from within the industry making constructive comments, so other people on this forum can see why I think that you are just another troll.

If you want me and others to amend. their opinions you need to become reasonable, constructive and practical.

Swordfish41,

I may not have been very clear. What I meant was that before working on the 737, I had never noticed that there was no slide from the over wing exit rather than that I didn't actually realise that until reading this thread. As I said, it is easy to forget that while we know the characteristics of the particular types we operate on inside out, it is sometimes easy to forget that for many passengers the aircraft is an alien environment. What may seem obvious to us after years of familiarity, isn't to them.

With regards the evacuation, I said that we are responsible for giving them the information they need to help get themselves out of the aircraft. That doesn't mean that we just open the door and lead the way down the slide, tempting though that may be. It means that in certain circumstances, if they are getting into trouble towards the centre of the aircraft for example, while we are evacuating other passengers at the doors, we might not even be able to get to them in time to help them. If a serious fire is involved that's more or less a certainty, although it won't be for want of trying I can assure you. Then there's the possibility that we may be injured or worse ourselves. Therefore, we have to ensure that during the briefing, we give as much information as we can to give people the best chance in a worst case scenario but without giving them so much that they end up zoning out before the end. Does that make more sense?

Finally, I can't speak for other airlines but our over wing briefing consists of door operation, instructions on the seat back, safety card, suitability check and willingness of passenger to operate exit if necessary. I do and have moved unsuitable passengers. If it's explained properly, most are happy to move. Those that refuse are given the option of another seat or the airbridge.

There were 3 smoke/fire incidents on B737 in a matter of days. Corendon, Turkey with evac, Jet 2 with evac and Transavia with diversion to Zagreb. Transavia hasn't even been mentioned here and Corendon tread almost died out.
It all come down to if Jane, or whatever is the name, is stupid.
I would suggest to everyone who want to post here to read last post by captplaystation on Corendon tread.

Capt In @ post 194
 

Did your colleague make his mistake (we've all made mistakes) because he didn't bother to read the manuals or the SOP, or because he was reading the newspaper when the mission was being explained?
Did he then go to the media and say how chaotic and frightening it was?
Did he abdicate responsibility for his own safety and the safety of others?
Did he go straight to Money Grabbers 4 U to see how much he could screw out of the system?
Everyone makes mistakes. Some learn from them, and so safety proceedures evolve. Hey, maybe even passenger briefings.
Some seem determined never to learn.....

Well this thread has certainly gone down a blind alley. Time to disembark I think.


As mere SLF though, I will say this:
I am far more terrified at the prospect of "A and C" or "Lord Spandex Masher", who have thus far shown themselves utterly incapable of introspection or any interest in process improvement, being involved in any way in any safety critical industry - let alone carriage of souls - than I am of meeting Jean during an evacuation.

You're a disgrace to your profession.


Absolutely all credit though to a few though, not least "jetset lady."

JSL
 

Jet Set Lady,
as I said I don't want to put words into your mouth, and If you think I've misrepresented what you said then I apologise. All I can say about the one to one briefing is that in my experience its honoured more in the breach. Clearly in your experience it isn't. I certainly understand the problems you have in trying to impart all the safety information in the time that you have, within the limits of excited or apprehensive passengers attention span. I also appreciate that if there was a serious fire you would have your hands full. You certainly seem to realise that. In fact this is why I and I think some others on this thread are saying that we get alarmed when some posters just want to say the system for evacuating passengers is fine/the best we can do, the problem is the plebs we have to carry. They're stupid, or drunk, or uneducated. ( I don't include you in this.)
The truth is almost every incident of an emergency evacuation throws up some problems, which in a more serious set of circumstances would be fatal. And it would be fatal both for the cretins and those who read the safety card in equal measure. So we should stop being complacent.

There is a rope in the door frame of the 737 (over wing) and a yellow painted tie down on the wing surface - this is to aid evacuation from overwing exits .?

What's that all about ? Given the cabin crew are at the front and rear of the aircraft , ever seen one used ? It's such a secret , Pax would never know its there !!
IF the passengers found it and attached it to the wing - it would lead you to the middle of the wing - yep straight in the direction you don't want to be going .....

SLF and proud
 

I think that you misrepresent me and have only skimmed my posts, in at least three of them I urge the quest for better communication to be used when the safety brief is given.
The major problem however is the passengers who are determined to ignore the brief, the reason for this is unclear to me but a quick look around the cabin of any flight and you will see this behaviour.

I am pragmatic about safety and can't see any way forward with cabin safety if a large proportion of the passengers are immune from taking in any safety information no matter how well the industry presents it.

In the airline I work for the captain's last task in an evacuation is to take a PBE and a Flashlight and to search the cabin for incapacitated passengers and leave the aircraft by the rear door, as you might have guessed that will have a detrimental effect on my life expectancy. I will no doubt be risking my life for those who have become incapacitated because they did not take the trouble to read the escape instructions.

If this us being a disgrace to the profession then so be it but at least I am not viewing the situation through the eyes of the politically correct who totally reject the personal responsibility that a passenger holds for their own safety and the safety of others.

SLF, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

However, I am not involved in developing or improving processes. That isn't my job. I am though involved in the "carriage of souls" (although I prefer to call them people) in a very safety critical environment, I have been for nearly two decades and I haven't lost one yet. As such I am very aware of the need for my passengers to follow those safety critical instructions.

I would ask you quite how you know I am incapable of introspection because of one view point I am expressing on this forum?

Well I think if regulators were serious about safety then ;

1. It would be investigated why there is almost an evac once a week for ground cockpit/cabin smoke issues ( poor procedures / tight turnaround times ? )

2. All window exits, all types would be equipped with slides.

3. A cabin crew seat would be in the exit rows.

4. Exit rows would be occupied (2 recent flights I travelled on, 2 different carriers had empty exit rows as nobody would pay for them.)

5. Excess cabin baggage wouldn't be stuffed in the hold at last minute without a thought for the contents.

6. Cabin PAs would be made audible.

Anyone who portrays passengers en masse as " stupid" does not deserve to be in the pointy end. Especially so, when some of these very people check their mobiles on finals, take off from taxyways, can't recognise a stall, land at the wrong airport, fail to lower flaps in an evac & more....

We are all human, we all make mistakes, sometimes stupid. Stop bitching about each side of the fence & work together to improve, educate & learn, no matter what our position is.

Surely the 'drop' isn't 12'? If so, then that distance at speed, isn't acceptable for people to fall onto tarmac.

In many years experience as SLF, I recall only two occasions when I have been seated in a window exit row on a short-haul flight. On both occasions I was fully briefed by a cabin crew member, and on one of them I was asked to move into the otherwise empty exit row. So some crew of some carriers do do the job properly.

As regards briefings, how about turning off all lights, including reading lights, except for spotlights on the persons giving the demonstration.

As regards evacuation process improvements, why not identify the row numbers of the exit rows? They are well-defined, but never, im my experience, announced. To go with this, attach large, legible row numbers to the aisle seats at headrest of armrest level. To avoid people trying to take bulky luggage with them, enforce the rules on size, and also reduce the maximum size.

Road hog
 

The drop is about 12 feet from the top surface of the wing to the ground, you go down the flaps at about a 40 degree incline and the bottom of the flap is about 4 feet above the ground. It is not a 12 foot vertical drop to the ground !

I hope that clarifies the situation

Seems even some crew may have an issue with going down the flaps? Anything special about a Nimrod?...

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Victor XL231 And Nimrod XV250 Work Diary

Over react to an unusual situation? OR take a fire into the air ?

Which option is better ?

Oh and in the time taken to read this post you have to make that call !

I have no doubt that if Shy Talk is correct in what he as written the cabin crew took the correct action, even if investigation finds that there was no fire/overheat on the aircraft.

Perhaps someone can confirm whether Jet2 do "packs-off" take offs on their 738's. If they do, then that would put paid to the water vapour theory (unless they run the packs/APU for takeoff).

Water vapour tends to evaporate almost instantly as it enters the cabin - it doesn't "fill" the cabin! Additionally the conditions hardly seem conducive to water vapour (GLA at 7am in Oct is not the same as a muggy IBZ at 32C in summer!)

It must that've been something pretty spectacular for the CC to make the call - but if in doubt....... no doubt.

Running In - you say it's the cabin crews responsibility to get pax off. Now that's all well and good however what if the cabin crew are unconscious? Should the passengers just sit and wait for the emergency services to arrive? Overweight exits are "self help". Passengers need to open and operate these exits themselves. Cabin crew are not stationed by these exits. So therefore passengers must take responsibility for their own safety too. Time and conditions permitting (I'm sure you could understand nobody would run into a wall of flames) cabin crew will check for pax left behind which is the point if the smoke filled cabin training.

Any more updates on the source of the smoke?

Shy Talk
 

As you say it will come out in the wash, however I am always very reluctant to criticize people who have to make life or death decisions in a split seconds.

I am just an Internet observer of the situation and am not in a position to comment on what the cabin crew did or did not see but I would far rather see ten evacuations on the ground if that prevents one aircraft getting airborne with a real fire.