anengineer is totally correct. The "System" and by that I mean regulators, operators and manufacturers, has to spend more time considering events surrounding evacuations. It is clear that as flight crew we have very little time to acquire sufficient information to justify an evacuation yet with a possible fire, we may feel we have to react without out it. Until we are given more guidance we will have more (just like in the sim.) Smoke-Stop-Evacuate situations. I think we should spend more to see if what we do now is really a sensible way of doing things.

Then we must seriously look at passenger briefings and passenger behavior - under stress. I believe most airline passenger briefings are a complete waste of everybody's time and effort. Nobody listens for a start and secondly, the briefings lack presence and honesty. Maybe we should consider "bite sized" briefings just before the event? Do passengers really need a seat belt briefing? Is the oxygen mask briefing correct? And so on...

Then we have to consider passenger actions when it all goes wrong. What is clear is that when it does wrong, the average cabin is split into about three camps. Those who are going to live, those who'll probably die and those in the middle. Like for example, the passengers in the hijacked Ethiopian 767 who inflated their life jackets before the aircraft ditched. Here, if we are to believe a lady who found herself on the wing of the Glasgow 737, she considered that there was no way down because there was no slide. But what did the safety card show show, the one which she was asked to read before departure? Also, she went to say that two girls jumped down without injury. But she's on an aircraft wing after having be told to evacuate - just what do have to do to make this lady jump? Unless planning takes into account (or totally ignores) the "lady on the SPT onimbus," we'll not have a worthy evacuation system. I say worthy because we have to have a system that is built for the majority of passengers - because if we build a system robust enough to protect the dumbest and least able we won't be able to go flying. And this is where we must be honest. And finally, we must be totally clear that not every person will be able to evacuate an aircraft a certain amount of time, which may have consequences!

In passing, we should also consider that we will have what might be described as "useful" people in the cabin as well. The guys who were helping fellow passengers to clear the bottom of the slides in Glasgow were doing remarkable job. Considering a total lack of briefing (which takes to the above) and preparation and the fact that they believe they were close to a burning aircraft, they did an excellent job.

Which leads us on to our last line of defence - Cabin Crew. It sounds like this crew did a good job. They shouted at the passengers to get out and carried on doing so until they did. It looks like all the doors were opened and all the slides we deployed. They should be congratulated.

Finally lawyers - what do we have to do before this corrosive scum damage our lives more than they are already doing?

Just for those with cutting remarks on here, this is the reality.

Looks like they are getting loads of practice at Glasgow....A Thomas Cook flight had to evacuate the week before.....

60 passengers evacuated via emergency chutes after Thomas Cook plane fills with smoke - AOL Travel UK

"We were accelerating very, very hard down the runway at this stage and I was about to scream out to the cabin crew when obviously the pilot realised there was something wrong and he immediately throttled the engines back and put the brakes on. It's the hardest braking I've ever experienced in my life.
"There was a stunned silence when we stopped, everyone was in shock. The captain called the cabin crew into the cockpit and a few minutes later yelled 'evacuate, evacuate'.

It was only afterwards that people began to shake and realise exactly what had happened."

Mr Divers said the crew were "brilliant" and the captain should be praised for running up and down the cabin to ensure everyone was off the plane before him.
Natalie Crawford, from Cumbernauld, North Lanarkshire, said it was a "scary experience", adding: "Just as the plane was about to lift off, there was a strong smell of smoke and the cabin instantly filled up.

What made it worse was the lights were out because it was an early morning flight. Myself and my family were going for a long weekend to Benidorm for my dad's 50th. Although we're all ok it has been a scary experience."
The incident happened at around 7.40am and the runway was closed until 10am, causing serious disruption to flights to and from the airport.

flights were cancelled, including two inbound flights from London City and Gatwick airports, 14 departures were delayed and six arrivals were diverted to Edinburgh, Manchester, Prestwick and Aberdeen airports.

police spokesman said passengers on the Boeing 737-800 had been evacuated as a precaution.

A statement from Jet2 said: "This morning's flight LS177 from Glasgow Airport to Alicante made an emergency stop on the runway just prior to take-off. The aircraft was forced to curtail take off due to smoke in the cabin."
A passenger plane has made a safe emergency landing at Dublin Airport after crew detected smoke in the cockpit.

This idiotic theory of dimming the cabin lights for take off and landing in order to permit night visual adaption is nothing but a dangerous myth perpetuated over decades. It ignores the fact that night adaption is ruined with overhead reading lights on in the passenger cabin.

Even the flight deck crew have no night adaption since the landing lights and airport lights put paid to that. With the cabin lights on dim, and seat backs erect, if is often difficult for passengers to see over the heads of passengers in front of them to spot how many rows to the nearest exit and the overhead emergency lights are too dim,especially those wearing glasses..

It would make far more sense to have the cabin lights set in the bright setting for take off and landing so that passengers can see better in the cabin if an emergency evolves at night.

Plus a useful little hint for female passengers to avoid friction burns when going down a slide. Stick the emergency instruction card located in your seat pocket, underneath your apparel particularly if it is synthetic material. It prevents friction burns.

Fire guys a bit slow off the blocks there matelot :sad:

pilots
 

i think the pilots did a. great job. its in the hands of the aaib.

Regarding this old aircraft argument...

It is nonsense. Age is irrelevant. Its how the airline maintains the aircraft. And the vast majority of parts will have been changed since its original fit.

A bit like Trigger's broom - 20 new handles and brushes!

Heck, cargo airlines still use ancient B727s! Just looking on Airfleets for an example. Fedex have an MSN 162 A310-200. And they operate absolutely fine. Even Delta Connection use 38 year old B737-200!

There was some comment about the age of Monarch aircraft previously. As I said on the thread, Monarch has some of the best facilities in Europe and maintains to world class standards.

The difference between a 737 and an A 320 is probably not clear to most passengers, and so the fact that the Boeing has no wing slides will be a surprise.

Well I am not a fire chief, but the reaction to that Chinese 737 fire looked a total shambles.

One and half units arriving at 4 minutes 30. Also did the 'half' run out of retardant mid stream?:ouch:

And also...
 

It's also worth examining what lighting is the most effective for enabling effective evacuations during darkness. Part of this consideration will be the lighting level just prior to initiating an evacuation. It's standard with most airlines to turn the engines and APU off prior to evacuation, thus removing power to the busses that power normal cabin lighting. This in turn normally turns on the emergency lighting systems. And while we are here, does an evacuation alarm work? What is its precise function?

Just a little extra to matelo's post - with a bloody great fire at Okinawa, a "First World" airport, it took at least 4 mins 40 seconds for the first fire fighting measures to be taken. At Glasgow, the boys (& girls?) with the blue lights observed the evacuation.

"Are you saying they are stupid for using the wing exit or for expecting some way down to the ground from there? "

Anyone who has read the safety card knows full well there are no chutes on the wings.

Then again, it's a flight from Glasgow so it could well be the shoplifting alarm on the doors.....

As a Glaswegian I really laughed out loud at that. I thought that it was only armed into and out of Liverpool.

Evacuation precaustions
 

It may be conforting for some to decide that anyone taking an action he/she doesn't understand must be stupid but it could be he/she doesn't understand

Dimming to preserve night vision is far from ridiculous. Night vision repair takes a finite time and the brighter the previously light the longer night adaption takes

Best results are if the cabin lights prior to the event are of the same brilliance as the inner outer emergency lights

Two points:

- Nobody reads those cards or listens to the instruction. And even if they do, they won't take it too seriously (apart from the people with fear of flying). Maybe people are stupid, or maybe they are mollified by the exceptional safety record of the industry. The chance or rather danger that I need this information is very small.

- Standing on a wing is a very unusual situation to be in for an average passenger. While sliding down at the doors seems to be natural (the usual way out and a mode of transportation we all know from childhood), a high wing with the big turbines underneath is evil territory. Expecting from people in this tense situation at this place to understand to use the flaps for getting down is in my view ludicrous. Bad design.

That china response was poor.

As previously mentioned 4.40+ for first tender, all retardent applied to nose and starboard, none to port meaning that whilst the stbd fire is extinguished its still raging on the portside at 8.30+


Whatever happened to ICAO 2min response times...

Even if you know there are no slides from the wing I bet many are surprised how high up they are. Pretty sure it would take quite a lot of smoke to persuade some people to jump.

Burnie5204

90 seconds

No deaths !
 

What I can't understand from looking at the photos is how all those people were ruining around a live airfield without HI-Vis jackets and yet nobody in this very hazardous area was badly injured or killed.

If the passengers actually listened and read the safety card and accepted the 'one on one brief' the cabin crew do to the passengers on the over wing exist then its there own fault.

If you jump off the wing from the wing root it's not high at all, you can touch the flap on the walk around. All you have to do is FOLLOW the arrows on the wing which designate you where to walk, sit your fat/or drunk ass down and slide down the flap.

As usual it's a case of 'it won't happen to me'! The crew involved did exactly what the book said.

Well done to those involved.

Jean Walker ther lady who posted that there were no chutes from the wing is clearly a very stupid person, she has been told in the safety brief how to get out, it is also on the safety card in the seat pocket that she has been asked to read.

If she ( and others) are unable to take responsabiltity for their own safety then if they are injured or killed it is their own fault.

Today's society is full of people who are unable or unwilling to take personal responsabiltity for their actions, perhaps the death of a few of them would remind the rest that the safety brief is for their benefit ......not just a cabin crew dance!

My point exactly!

If I was to be in an incident, I wouldn't be worried about my ability to get out, its the other people in my way who haven't a clue!

It's about time airlines got tough ... if you aint listening to the demo, off the plane you get!

Alex, despite your tender years you've just made a valid point.

One aspect of the 1985 Manchester Air Disaster which saw 53 pax and 2 crew die in a smoke filled cabin was the difficulty of evacuation due to lack of space and the bodies of pax in the way.

This diagram speaks volumes and shows why having an evacuation plan in mind puts you ahead in the survival stakes

File:Britair28m.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would it be right to think that any smoke in cabin incident could potentially develop quickly into far worse a situation?

I can't believe...
 

...that after years of reading this forum something has finally irritated me enough to register ;-). Afternoon all...


When fully trained pilots apparently don't know how to recover from a stall (despite that being taught in practically the first ever lesson I took in a glider,) or forget where the runway is, there is always a long debate about how nobody should place blame, all pilots are fallible, and the system/process/aircraft obviously need redesigning.

When a passenger, whose background we know nothing about, in a highly stressed situation does or says something stupid, it's taken as a sign that the passengers are morons and it's entirely their own fault because the system is completely perfect.



I expect a 15 year old kid to think they're invincible and incapable of making a bad decision, that's why we don't let them drive and why when they do start driving they have a bad habit of killing themselves. But seriously, the adults in the room should take a long hard look at themselves.


Anecdotally, in the last couple of weeks I've flown with Easyjet, Jet2 and BA several times. I always pay attention during the safety briefing, and check the safety card. Some anecdotal data points:

• I cannot remember a single flight where the "personalised briefing" for those on the exit row consisted of more than "please will you put your bags in the overhead locker and remember to read the card."
  
• Back in the old days, when you checked in at the airport, if you checked in to the exit row you were asked if you were capable and willing to handle the exit doors and assist in the evacuation. I assume they also made an assessment of whether or not you were mentally likely to be capable. Since the advent of online checkin that doesn't happen any more. Yes, I presume the gate staff/cabin crew weed out the obviously infirm/incapable, but maybe there is a weakness here. Some airlines now charge extra for the exit row - I imagine there is even more disincentive for crew to remove someone inappropriately seated there if they know they've paid for the privilege.
  
• The idea that it is "obvious" from the safety card that there are no slides/rafts on the overwing exits (except on those planes where there are) just isn't true. I've checked several safety cards on the internet and some it's far from obvious; the reliance on pictography while understandable means actually some details like that are far from clear. It's also something I don't remember ever being called out by cabin crew. Perhaps the briefing should be updated to make a specific mention.
  
• It may be obvious to you or me that the large arrows painted on the wing are directions to evacuating passengers, but there are plenty of things written on the wing ("NO STEP", "HOIST POINT", "STAND CLEAR OF THIS AREA WHEN ENGINES RUNNING", "ENSURE SLATS LOCKED BEFORE OPENING THIS COWL" that sort of thing (and yeah I know those wordings are probably inaccurate, I'm going from memory)) that clearly are not directions to passengers under normal circumstances, so why should it be obvious to a normal person which ones are for their benefit and which aren't?
  
• Someone earlier (cabin crew I guess) said "when have you ever seen a passenger check if their lifejacket is under their seat." I remember being surprised last week when on one flight (BA I think it was) the CC specifically indicated to passengers they could do so if they wanted during the briefing; it's the first time I have ever heard it mentioned; prior to that you would certainly never have seen me checking - on a plane passengers are pretty much told to do what they're told and only what they're told, I for one certainly wouldn't have tried to find the life vest for fear of setting off some kind of alarm or ending up not being able to get the thing back in its holder.
  
• Realistically, when you're on your sixth flight in as many days on a different airline and aircraft every time and you're flat out knackered, sometimes it's hard to remember where the hell you're flying from and to, let alone specific details of which aircraft you're on, even if you did read the safety card/listen to the briefing. That's just a fact of life. If there is important information people need (like "jump off the wing here, there's no slide",) present it to them when they need it, don't rely on them remembering something that could have been hours earlier.

If we can forgive pilots for not knowing how to recover from a stall, I think we should probably forgive passengers for not knowing how to get off the wing of a plane, and maybe look at how safety briefings/aircraft/the system could be modified to improve things in the future.

Yeah thanks Jean you blithering idiot. I will stay in the aircraft and die of smoke inhalation because you have decided there is no way down to the ground.

SLFandProud
 

Top post..:D

"I expect a 15 year old kid to think they're invincible and incapable of making a bad decision"

I'm going to assume this is directed at me:

I am in no way saying I am invincible. In an incident, I know I am in a great deal of danger, exactly the same level of danger as everyone onboard. What I am saying is it worries me to think most of the people on board haven't even bothered to familiarize themselves with how to get out of that plane, and that those individuals could hinder a swift exit for everybody else.

Hi Alex757,

I don't think that the post was aimed at you at all ;)

Just for the record, every time I go flying I count the seats to the over-wing exit and also the rows to the forward or aft exit. I always share this information with everybody in my party. I always read the safety card and listen to the briefing.

I have done a fair bit of flying but like to make sure that should anything ever happen I have a plan to hand.

Just saying!

Seems it's not unusual for people to be confused about how to get down from the wing, in at least one case people went to the wing tip. I'm pretty sure many people over 65 would be reluctant to jump even 3 foot and I wouldn't be surprised if the curvature of the flaps put people off because they "can't see the edge". Pretty sure if given a choice most peoples natural instinct is to sit on the edge of the drop with feet over it rather than slide off into the "unknown" if you get what I mean.

Jet Emergency Evacuation: 2 Pilots, 8 Crew Suspended | news.outlookindia.com

Jet Airways flight 9W2302 in August 2010...

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...l%206-2010.pdf

Boeing 747 at Pheonix in 2009 and F28 in 2002..

Probably, but what he posted was 100% accurate. I have never seen any cabin crew, ever, give a personalised briefing.

Therefore, perhaps time for ALL airlines to review their SOP.

Personalised Briefing
 

On the other hand I cannot recall a flight in recent years where, if I have been seated in an exit row I haven't been given a briefing (carriers Air Berlin, Swiss and SATA Internacional).

What I can recall is Alex757 as has intimated, just how many passengers believe the general safety briefing / video is NOT DIRECTED AT THEM and that their newspaper or the inflight mag. is of infinitely more importance than the briefing which might save their lives, and more importantly the lives of others!

On a separate point, what also bothers me is the shear quantity of baggage that is brought into the cabin these days, which, in the event of an emergency must be a severe hindrance to a smooth evacuation.

- I understand some airlines have persuaded their regulator that the safety card is sufficient.

Have flown Easyjet a few times in the past 6 months and was very surprised to have a very personal and detailed briefing on use of the emergency exit. Not seen that much attention paid to it before. It was very thorough.

Safety briefing format is outdated
 

I have never been explicitly told in a Safety Briefing about how to get off the wing after being advised there are overwing exits so Jean, though unthinking about everyone behind her, was simply a victim of a poor briefing in the first place. It may be obvious to this forum that you can jump off the trailing edge but not to the average holiday maker who is encouraged to think of a plane like a bus. Passengers are told in detail about how to put on lifejackets in the unlikely event of a landing in the water (apart from the Hudson River, survivable water landings seem to be a very rare event) whereas they are not instructed in evacuation procedures when emergency evacuations on the ground due to fire, or potential fire, are relatively more common. This focus on water landings even on internal flights is a relic of piston propeller days, and is outdated. The problem is that it is internationally standardised so don't hold your breath for it to change soon although individual carriers could take a lead in adapting it. Is it not about time that safety briefings were updated and include the words "Do not stop to collect your possessions or take luggage with you from the over head locker as as this can impede your exit and that of all the people behind you who also have to evacuate the aircraft safely"? Those passengers sitting nearest the overwing exits who have to open the doors must also be told that they have to jump or slide off the rear edge of the wing and then help others to do so. If our Jean had been asked whether she was able and willing not just to open the doors but also to jump off the wing, she would have been aware of the issue and had the opportunity not to sit in the Exit seat.

I cannot recall having been on a flight when the emergency exit row briefing was NOT given.
The airlines I use regulary Vueling, BA and Easyjet all do it. On EZ I hold a priority card so often sit in the exit row and it (the briefing) has never been missed. Ok, so not always as pointed as it could be, but never missed. I always reinforce that I have understood it (anyone not responding is liable to find the footprint of a size UK 12 in the small of their back).
Of course some crew members are more adamant about it, that's natural, but it is always given.
On Vueling in particular a cabin crew walks down the aisle to check seat belts/hand luggage on floor etc; and another crew member walks behind to double check. It has always been done as far as I know in a conscientions manner.
On a recent BA flight BCN/LHR a cabin crew member whose name was Jane (well done Jane) told a pax who was talking during the briefing to be quiet. It was done with a polite air of authority.
I am prepared as an ex flying person to take responsibility for myself (checking exit rows, door operations etc; as indeed I do in hotels. It is ingrained in me) but know that many people are not. They may be the same people who can see no harm in following another vehicle too closely or walking under scaffolding - such is humanity. and surely flying is now so safe!
The only question I have is why on BA the window blinds are allowed to be down at landing and take off, as many U.S. airlines allow. No other airline that I regularly fly allows this - seems to me like walking into a blind alley. Oh, yes why still the silly tapes on life jackets?
My point is that most crews do their level best and rarely, in my lengthy experience, miss that much.

I agree with oscarisapc not only on this but the part about the masks dropping down. I think the briefing should mention if it happens the aircraft will normally decend to prevent further panic in a stressful situation. More information is good in all these situations. When smoke occurs in the cockpit/cabin there isnt going to be a chance to repeat the briefing in a rapidly changing situation.

SLFandProud
 

SLFandProud

Probably the best post I have ever read on PPRuNe.

.........Oh & on the subject of life jackets, don't look under your Ryanair seat, as they are in the overhead panel. Listen to the briefing !!! yea & on how many flights has the PA been so inaudible as to be a waste of time? Certainly 3 of my last 6 flights were inaudible (ZB, EZY & RYR).

Cwatters
 

I have the misfortune to have to travel Easyjet about 6-8 times a month and try to get an emergency exit row seat, each time I have the cabin crew have taken the time to give the people at the exit a brief on use of the exit.

I could make a lot of criticism of Easyjet but the emergency procedures are always followed and others above seem to agree wth me.

If the smoke in the jet2 aircraft had been a fire that stupid woman directing other passengers back into the aircraft would have most likely resulted in multiple deaths...........and all because she ignores the safety brief and can't be bothered to read the safety card.

Not only that but did she really think that it would be safer inside having read the safety card or not?!

Mr A Tis

Except for 1A, 1B, 1C and 2E, 2F, 2G where they ARE under the seats.

Belated response to post 60. You are correct all fire / smoke evacs require an AAIB investigation. The last runway evac I remember was mid 2010... ryr returned with wheel well fire light that did not go out.