I got this one sent through from a buddy of mine who bailed from KAL after 12 months. His crewing company wanted to know why he was leaving, so he told 'em. Pretty much sums it up....


Hi Xxxxxx,

The shrinking value of the USD, the attitude to the foreign pilots, the lack of adequate training and the poor attitude to flight safety are all reasons to leave KAL.

I have been told that the last time the foreign pilot reps approached the company about the non-competitive salary package, they were told it was not going to change and it was none of their business. The Korean crews would obviously be happy to see all of us go, but I fear for the flying public if that happens. When the foreign training advisor was asked to gather information on current issues concerning the foreign pilot group, he was made a pariah and accused of trying to form a union. The manager who asked him to gather the information denied ever making the request. The foreign manager resigned from his post as a result. A sad loss for Korean (although I doubt they looked at it that way), as the few foreigners who work in flight ops management really do try to make a difference.

The failure rate for the interview process is purely the result of the union pilots input at the simulator stage. The state of serviceability of the 777 simulator is a complete joke for a major airline. Candidates are sometimes asked to do irrelevant and ridiculous tasks and are failed for nonsense. From what I have seen of the skill level of the local KAL crews, few, if any of them would ever pass the interview and simulator. KAL needs more foreign pilots, not just to make up the numbers, but because the standard of many of the Korean crews is abysmal. If they are to continue on their current accident free run, more Korean pilots are not the answer. I realise you make your living employing pilots for KAL, but if I knew 18 months ago what I know now about KAL, I would not have applied. After a while I guess some people can become immune to what is going on around them, but I found it very frustrating.

I have kept records of some of the ridiculous incidents that have taken place during my tenure at KAL, and of the attitudes of the crews I have flown with, and their responses to those incidents. The average Korean pilots understanding of the aircraft he is flying and of the operation in general is very limited. You can teach a monkey to follow a procedure, but not to understand what he is trying to achieve. When something out of the ordinary happens, they are all at sea.

The poor standards are not entirely the Korean pilots fault. Korean managements attitude to safety is appalling. Hardly surprising when you consider they have a raffle every couple of years and change all the managers. People are not promoted to management because they have any talent or ability, let alone a desire to see things change for the better. They run the airline like a private club. There is no continuity or accountability at the flight operations management level. They send us emails about improving safety, but nobody ever replied or even acknowledged any emails I sent. The changes to CAT3 operations last year were a classic example. None of the line crews I flew with understood what they were doing. At a recurrent ground school a local LCP admitted he had no clue either, and when I explained the correct procedures to he and two local FO's told me that I did not understand the concept of all weather operations (I must have been wrong for the past 18 years). Recurrent tests and exams are always accompanied by a set of answers, so there is no attempt to improve knowledge or standards, just to make sure everyone passes and the operation continues. My radio licence test consisted of attending a classroom to watch the movie "Flightplan" (with Jodie Foster) and an 80's movie about a couple of guys ferrying Pawnees across the Pacific. Attendance was mandatory. Bored out of my skull, I slept through the second movie. My Radio Licence turned up a few weeks later.

I have attended two safety meetings, which local management are supposed to attend. On both occasions they were absent during the meetings and only turned up for the free buffet and drinks after the meeting. We received notices to flight crew that were only published in Korean. When I found mistakes in the Oral test for my annual check, the Korean version of the test was changed, but not the English version. On both of my final line checks I was exposed to incompetence and interference from my 'supporting' LCP's. Their knowledge of the aircraft is appalling and their idea of competence is to be able to quote procedures parrot fashion without understanding what they are doing, or even if it is appropriate to the situation. Everything is a competition and comes down to who is right, rather than what is right. My LIP (who had an extremely poor command of English) gave me bad grades because I followed SOP rather than follow his unsafe, non-standard, "time saving" techniques. When I queried this he threw my training folder at me and fed me a bull**** line about how the chief pilot told him he could do it the SOP way or his own way. He struggled on the radio on most of our training sectors and did not exhibit a single trait that would have made him an instructor in any other airline. Another expat pilot told me he had the same instructor when he joined and experienced similar problems.

Crews refuse to de-ice their aircraft because they consider it macho to take off with an ice covered aeroplane. I have had debates with Korean captains on more than one occasion about the state of the aircraft, and have been challenged by ground engineers for recommending to the operating captain that we remove the ice and snow that was evident on the aircraft. An auditor told me how de-icing staff were caught diluting de-icing fluid and selling the balance back to the fluid provider, and then signing the fluid off as 100%.

I have operated flights where, for 10 hours, the Korean first officer refuses to speak to me because he doesn't like foreigners. This is after I have introduced myself and done everything possible to be extremely polite and accommodating. I have spent almost 4 hours in the cockpit without any contact from the cabin. The cabin crew close all the window shades immediately after takeoff regardless of what time of day it is, so if the cockpit crew were asleep, dead or whatever and the aircraft was intercepted, nobody would know. Maybe another KAL 007 incident would change that. We are required to attend a briefing before every flight with the cabin crew, and if the operating captain is Korean, the whole thing is done in Korean. When I brief, the cabin crew understand little if any of what I say, (if their subsequent questions are any indication). CRM is non-existent and there is often a palpable animosity between flight and cabin crew.

We are forced to fly with all radios blaring, the loudspeaker turned up and a headset on, with cabin calls, PA's, radio chatter and ATC all mixed into one garbled barrage of sound. Apparently this is so we don't miss any ATC calls. Of course, it has the opposite effect, but it's a procedure, so it must be followed without regard for common sense. Crews ask me to be a safety pilot and then conduct all their briefings and conversation in Korean and ignore me when I point out threats to safety. I have seen crews attempt to descend through their cleared level and then argue with me that they are right, attempt to taxi across active runways when told to hold short, ignore ATC speed instructions, fight with each other over who is right, captains yelling at FO's...all the things that KAL supposedly don't do any more. Colleagues have seen worse than this. I won't act as safety pilot any more as my presence on the flight deck in the event of any incident will no doubt see the finger pointed at me for not preventing the situation.

Dispatchers have a poor command of English, so any problems arising from incorrect or nonsensical flight plans are difficult to resolve. They assume they are in command of the flight and come up with ridiculous responses to serious situations. Yet the Korean crews will follow the dispatchers guidance without question. A 747 with smoke in the cockpit was told to continue, as was a 777 mid-Pacific with a fuel leak. The 747 avoided disaster through pure chance. Luckily the 777 had an expat on board and diverted to Anchorage.

I don't think it's a matter of if KAL have another accident, but when. They simply don't want to change their poor safety culture because it may be painful and involve some short term loss of face for the older guys. Making English the required language for all flight operations staff (and enforcing the rule) would be a good start. Crews always fall back on the few manuals that are published in Korean, and ignore those that are only presented in English. Doing away with the Korean books would be difficult for a while but would ultimately improve operations, crew knowledge and understanding, and ultimately safety.

It could the best airline, and should be the best job in the world, but the Koreans don't seem to want that to happen.

Regards,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxxx

I've lived in Korea for the past 2 years and the above post sums-up Korean culture better than any other that I've seen. It is the same for them in every walk of life. They don't want things done correctly they want it done due to procedure. This is instilled in them during their formative years where they suffer the horrors of the Korean education system. They are incredibly nationalistic and proud as this is the first thing taught to them in schools and some possess a healthy disregard and fear of foreigners. That being said, they are in the minority these days and a lot of Koreans are great. The education system teaches students the answer rather than why it's the answer leading to a nation that don't question things, ask why or mistrust what they hear. A truly dangerous thought when put in charge of an aeroplane.

a buddy of mine sent me this to think it over before applying there

Cultural Safety in Korean Air

Cultural safety in Korean Air using the data gathered by FMAQ in 1998. According to the FMAQ data, Dr. Helmrich and the research team believes that currently Korean Air flight crews do not believe the senior management respects their suggestions on safety. However, there are no data in correlation to the number of suggestions, if at all made by flight crews.

A representative aspect of the Korean culture is "Face" (for a lack of a better term). A person’s actions and thoughts are in direct correlation to the position he or she holds and demands respect simply because of the position. If a subordinate does not give respect to the person, then that person's face is lost. Therefore, respect is not earned by the superior but demanded, which causes the subordinate to be humble.

(Question) "Has anybody questioned an action or a decision which you believe to be detrimental to safety?" "If not, why not?" This is Korean Air's current culture. Culture is not the responsibility of any individual, and certainly no individual is able to change culture. There are roles and standards for individuals in any culture. It is difficult at best to change and/or remove wrong or unhelpful habits without the effort of all involved. It would be difficult to redirect the Korean culture, which would be more conducive to safety if the people involved expect others to do it for them.

As long as save face prevails over safety they're simply screwed. Needless to say any expat working there will be guilty by default regardless whether right or wrong. What a disgrace to the whole aviation world.

After reading this I will make sure that my friends and family members do not fly Korean Air. So I guess its only thanks to Boeing and Airbus for making such modern and advanced planes that there hasn't been a Pepsi logo in a smoking crater lately.

Having lived in Korea, albeit working on the ground at Kimpo 20+ years ago, I know one thing:

Never start a fight with a Korean man - or woman.
They're all hard as nails.:eek:

I don't know whether the compulsory military service toughens them up, but trust me, don't even think of swinging a punch. And I'm a hard man!

I just read about this incident (Korean A388 at Tokyo on Jul 21st 2011, engine pod strike) in the ME-forum.

Not hard to understand why these things happen in Korean after reading some posts of this thread.

What really worries me most, is the fact that this A380 returned to Seoul with only 1 hour delay. How thorough an inspection must that have been?

Sb, you need to direct that question to the Belgian National, TRE from airbus who was PIC on that flight. :ok:

I lasted nine months. I ignored all the posts about the "issues" there, to my regret.

TEX JOHNSONS' buddy does not exagerate. I experienced most of the things he mentioned in my short tenure. YES, the commuting contract works like clockwork; YES, you get your requested days off each month; YES, the aircraft are well maintained and YES you commute in J/Y(at least while I was there).

BUT, I don't think most of us got into this business because our priority was a good commuting contract. I got and stayed in this business because it was fun; I enjoyed the cammaraderie and professionalism of my colleagues and I looked forward to going to work each and every trip.

KAL took all the fun out of flying and I dreded each and every month, that flight back to ICN. It was no way to live or work for me.

How times have changed DCS99. The current generation are the most effeminate, scared and unintimidating men on the planet. More have had plastic surgery than been in fights.

From haejangkook

From DCS99
Sorry to digress here and in no way am I advocating fistcuffs to sort out problems. It was a real incident I witnessed during my pub crawling days in Itaewon to ward off the depression and drudgerry of life in Seoul. Some big size American troops from the nearby Yongsan Base picked a a fight with some puny looking Nepalis. There were six Yanks and four Nepalis in the fracas; the end result, the four Nepalis ended up with minor bruises and all six Yanks were carted off in the ambulance to the hospital! I thought the alcohol had played tricks on my eyes but my drinking pals who were equally bemused, confirmed that the Yanks were beaten up real bad!

I left KAL not only because of all the sh*t that Tex Johnson and Keyline wrote about, I also had issues with some of the Alteon instructors who appeared nice on the surface but secretly doing the dirty jobs at their master's behest. protect essential is right on the money, life in KAL killed part of me.

I did 5 years on the 744 with KE. They broke my contract twice, but who's counting? I also paid $500 for being 20 minutes late at report time, but that was my fault and I deserved it.
However all that has been said about the culture is true. I spent a lot of time on the flight deck with my FO and I might as well have been alone. A new FO would give me the brief, telling me what number course he had attended at Jeju, if he was married and how many kids he had, then shut up for the rest of the flight.
But don't judge the Koreans by KE. The pilots who work for KE are completely different to the man in the street, who would give you all his money and all his time if you looked like you would need it more than he did. They can be wonderful people and you will think that the Koreans who work for the airline are from a different planet altogether.
KE pilots are arrogant and ignorant, and if you listen carefully, they are arrogant about their ignorance, thinking that this proves their manhood or something. It is true that, despite all the outside influences on their culture, a Korean FO would say nothing to his captain to stop the airplane being flown into the side of a mountain.
A good airline culture will never replace the KE culture, despite accidents that have been caused by this. The new Jeju cadets have to pick up this same culture or else they will be frozen out.
The older Korean Captains hate the foreigners, but they hate the Jeju pilots worse.
They have SOPs but do not make the mistake of following them. Better to do what the Korean Captain tells you, no matter how stupid it might seem. The FOs will report every word you say to the Chief Pilot and they have a lot of influence on the foreign pilots, especially renewal of contracts. Some of them might appear to be friendly toward the foreign pilots, but if they truly were, their own people would have ostracised them. It is an act, designed to elicit information that can be used against you.
If you make a small error during your sim check, you can be summarily fired, but the same rule does not apply to the Korean pilot. Seniority seems strange at times, but it is all based on the pilots' date of appointment to the first squadron he worked at in the Air Force. And if the FO flew the F4, while the Captain flew C130s, the FO will be the real boss on your flight.
Don't expect them to honour their word, and don't expect to get anything more than you actually get, and enjoy the flying.
Oh, and enjoy the medicals!

Reading this thread is frightening when one considers they are sharing your airspace but it doesn't surprise me. One of the companies that I have worked for in Australia once had a contract to train ab-initio pilots for KE. The horror stories started there and it seems there was never much improvement after that.

Sounds like they were Gurkhas and nobody in their right mind picks on them.

"Sounds like they were Gurkhas and nobody in their right mind picks on them"......

.......nobody except our pathetic excuse for a government who conveniently forget the years of dedicated service put in by these guys and their families.

GAPSTER,
Your location noted but, if you haven't read this already, it provides a range of army opinion.

Tut tut
 

As it sounds like a story for a movie, but I do have to agree but I've come across there are places where the locals do seem to be more 'powerful' towards the foreigners be it in the west or east.

At the same time I have experienced for e.g. ATCs in the US do delibrately being uncooperative to the non-english speaking flight crews by saying along the lines of " .. sorry i can't understand you sir... This is America sir..." even when they understand clearly. It's a shame.

My view, if foreigner land are not as same as home and you expect to be treated higher or same way as in home, why bother leaving home then? Work in the US Im sure it's a great place to work and everyone speaks English and the work ethics are the best instead of whinging about foreigners. The grass is greener on the other side? I think its fair to say that.

I'm faculty at a Korean university. Two points to make:

1 - It is not about being treated like back home, it is about being treated equal to a Korean with the same skills and experience. Back home we all run under the same rules. One university in Korea pays Koreans 4 mil won, about 3 500 USD, to publish a paper in an international journal. Foreigners get 500 USD for the same thing. That would be illegal back home. And dont even ask about tenure for foreigners here....

2 - Change the names and job titles and you have the same examples from education and banking similar to those above.

After having worked with KE in Saudi (they were working for SV) Fry Kolean ? freck u:ugh:

Unsafe?
 

Korean Air Lines have had many crashes. And the number of near crashes is astronomically high.

POST DELETED AS PROMISED.

Slasher:

What is even more amazing to me is that DoD (U. S. Department of Defense) books U.S. military and their dependents on KAL. As for the English, the only reason most of the KAL pilots have a Level 4 or better is because they have the profiles for the EngRish test. There was a very well known language company who walked away from a $5 million contract with KAL because they wouldn't allow KAL to administer the language test. Their reputation was more important than the contract. KAL now administers the test and NO ONE fails. An acquaintance at KAL was telling me about when he was safety pilot out of SFo-ICN. The captain had a level 5 on his license but after every ATC communication the F/O would respond in English and then translate to the captain in korean. Not one word of English was spoken on the flight deck by the captain. Gentlemen and ladies, they are flying in your airspace. The FAA knows of the problem and does nothing. Very political subject. Lose your life but don't lose face.