2 months left to new work hours guys... do this now...
 

See this website, sign up and have your say while there is time. Laugh at the videos... or cry.

flightdutytimes.eu

Go to EASA's facebook homepage and post there.

Email EASA. Rulemaking Enquiry - EASA Webgate

Failure means we will all pay the price with longer work hours, increased fatigue and unsafer skies.

Beachbud
96.2 % of replies came from one European Country. What's happening elsewhere in Europe?
Just to confirm also it's 2 months to respond to the latest scheme, then off to Parliment for approval and then 2 years to implement.
Increased fatigue - perceived. What's better 3 nights then a 0700 day flight or 4 nights?

I also fail to recognize an increase of duty hours. If I check the new draft of FTL, I see roughly 1 h less max duty in any duty start time bracket.

As far as i know its a website from the german union Vereinigung Cockpit. They had a TV ad running which prompted the public in germany to participate. Therefore the list on the german part of that website is quite long already for being up 2 days or so. But not enough signed by far, still needs a lot signed up.

Too bad a related thread has been deleted for what ever reason.

I thought it's a pilots board.....

Or is it just for brits?

uh, I see clearly now. VC again...

They tried to impress the public perception with a useless study about tired cockpit crews some months ago. In fact it was not a study but an opinion poll amongst pilots if they have "ever been tired in their lives".

I have to say VC does very bad politics. They suffer from a bad judgement of their own situation, since they have the best duty limitations in the world, at least the VC members in Lufthansa.

And I don't really feel much motivation to sign a petition whose wording is not there at all... - if I click on "facts" I don't get any facts at all. This site resembles dangerously to one of a religious cult.

Try this one
 

You can also go here:
Participate! | Flight Duty Times

That happend quiete often in the past. LH-VC members become rather a obstacle then a support. If it is not born in theire head it cannot be a good idea.

I always remember that old joke about a "Pilots Union meeting", at the end the question was: Do you mean every Wednesday ?!?!

Time to go with the time, maybe some of them dreaming from the old times? They are gone a while ago......

We can all make fun of unions but really the joke is on us. Places like LH appear to have company agreements which are significantly better from a crew perspective than the regulations demand. The problem is in the smaller companies where the limits may be seen as targets in order to improve productivity.

If this was about common sense and very occasional long duties because of truly unforeseen circumstances the situation would be different. The reality is that some duties are constructed imaginatively, for example with unrealistic turnaround times, to make them fit within the limits. You know weeks in advance you are probably going to go into discretion on these runs. Of course it is all legal. You do not know before check in for sure. Only after months does the company get a slap on the wrist because time and again we go into discretion.

Bashing the Union
 

Hi folks.

Just a view thoughts: some previous commenter's are right that within LH there are much stricter FDT limitations, due to the collective labour agreements between the LH employees and the management. Nevertheless these agreements are substantially based on the specific current German regulation, still in power. But these will become obsolete when the new EASA proposals become law in all Europe, which soon will be the case. The airlines will then argue with the same old wordings which we have seen on other occasions already (such as after the introduction of the EU-OPS): we have to do the same as so and so as otherwise we have an economical disadvantage compared to our European competitors.

Don't forget: the EASA proposals are only partially based on scientific research (as it is the case with the new FAA flight duty time regulations). It were the Unions that forced EASA to rework their first set of regulations published early last year.

It seems that what EASA is going to push into concrete now is more or less a wishlist of the airlines. And don't fool yourself: once this is regulation in Europe it will be the base for all agreements, even future collective labour agreements. So you would like to have flight duty times up to 16 hours by commanders discretion (now the max is 15 hours)? This given the fact that most dispatches already take into account that the Cpt. will use this "tool" in order to get the bird and pax home? The cited survey of VC has shown that in most cases the planning of some schedules is that tight that you may only fly it under commanders discretion.

Also I really don't like the idea that crews are forced to be awake for 24 hours and then land an airplane - as it would be (besides commanders discretion cases) the case with "split duty" schedulings.

Do we really need to lay out the ingredients for incidents and accidents to happen by a new - European - wide - regulation?

"Safety in aviation is the absence of accidents and incidents by preventive measures taken BEFORE something serious happens as a consequence of previously known deficiencies." I stick to this!

So why do crew keep going into discretion?!! I just can't get my head around this! If you allow this practice to continue, it WILL continue! If you start parking jets down route it will quickly become a very expensive party for the company.

Only do discretion when there are really, on the day, "unforeseen circumstances".

Interesting, although 5 year old, article here Prevalence of fatigue among commercial pilots

From the same article:

The new EASA FTL draft gives me about 1 h less flight duty a day (depending when it starts), so I see it as a good thing.

There are a lot of misconception around about captains discretion. They go to the national aviation authority, if it's above 2 h they have to be sent immediatly. Any airline that will use this tool too often will hear something from their supervising body. Unless you are in a banana republic...

Tim, you want to tell me that Lufthansa will change their FTLs into EASA standard as soon as they are in force? Do you really believe this? VC would call out industrial actions immediatly. Anyway, I don't see why I should fight for them, since they are top of the food chain and the most powerful pilots corps on the continent (apart from the cabin crew in BA...). If they want to fight, they should fight for us, not we for them.

So why do crew keep going into discretion?!!
 

Good question Cpt. Prop! But I'm quite convinced that there is a lot of pressure within the companies to do so. There are only few commanders who have the strong shoulders to proceed as you outlined.

Why are many commanders flying their birds - as requested by the companies - more and more at the recommended max though the coffins corner become dangerously small? Do they just want to avoid the invitation for a coffee at their superiors. It is all about saving fuel, but it is always safe? Well AF 447 has demonstrated what may happen if you have some more factors associated with this. And BTW: while talking "fatigue" and so - how long was the F/O on the cpt. seat in the cockpit of AF 447 when the mess started? Ever heard of "sleep inertia"? - This was at least a contributing factor in another - fatigue related accident: Air India Express at Mangalore...

banana republic
 

Hi Dani.

We are in a banana republic in Germany (thats why the shortening is BRD ;) ) !
The LBA has taken no steps - what so ever - against the more than 1.000 commanders discretion decisions of Air Berlin. They have even tolerated illegal flights to be conducted (duty time of commander of more than 17 hrs). Those who reported this irregularity to the LBA principal were sacked, as the LBA has nothing better to do then to inform the airline that someone (with name of course) has reported it. This is Germany - not Switzerland.

The Authorities - such as EASA too - unfortunately see their duty more in supporting the airlines and help them "economically" to survive than to enhance safety at an early stage.

If they want to fight, they should fight for us, not we for them.
 

Hey Dani!

It is about solidarity. Don't just lean back and let others do the job. Everbody is needed here and time is running out!

And yes, I think VC is also fighting for you and everybody else with a European ATPL. The aim of the campaign - as I see it - is to bring this subject to a wider attention in the population as they don't have a clue of what is going on in some back rooms in Cologne (EASA) and in Brussels (EU).

You can read and understand German so just read this and you will understand where the real danger lies here with good old EU commission and EASA:

Das Komitologieverfahren | Flugdienstzeiten

You obviously do not understand a lot about EU legislation. Those are always minimal standards. No legal body is prevented of applying higher standards.

If VC really would fight for me, they would work on standards they are sharing with their company. This is not the case. The only thing they want is fighting for their own privileges. Why for example do Lufthansa pilots allow other VC members to have worse conditions then their own? Why are they forbidding other pilot groups (LH subcontractors, LH Italia aso) to share their privileges? This is a selfish bunch.

I say it again: The new EASA FTL regulations are an improvement for me and for most other pilots.

@ Dani
 

Dear Dani.

Having studied law I think I understand quite well what is going on here.
Working in the EU field for some decades I also believe that I have a very solid and good understanding of how the EU regulations are implemented into national legislation.

Your further bashing comments into the direction of VC just show that you have no clue of what you are talking. I also believe that you are represented by good old "aeropers", if you happen to be a member.

But It is not my task, nor duty to convince you of what a union does or does not. I'm not a member of VC, never been, and very likely will also never become.

I may somehow agree on some of your allegations in regards to previous boards that were majority formed by LH pilots. But this is long time history...

Give me a break, show me one practical case where EU wouldn't allow higher standards than their legislation. This has never happen and will never happen. Surely not in the EU we know. Law study is no replacement for logical thinking nor close observation of actual politics.

The same will happen to Aeropers pilots (union of the former Swissair pilots in Swiss): They will never adapt EASA, because they have better FTLs.

Not even VC is implying that the new FTLs are binding for them. So you shouldn't neighter. If they would really fear, they would put this on top of their petition. But on the contrary, they don't even write what you are signing for! What an utter violation of basic democtratic principles...

I guess you are Tim van Beveren, the well known aviation journalist, who didn't even know the difference between a B777 and a A330 in the biggest Swiss newspaper and after that in a spotter forum. Have you taken over some PR mandate for VC in the mean time?

You do not seem to have a shimmer of a clue about how VC works. Quite understandably from someone from switzerland where there is at least one union per company and nobody from the bigger one helps the smaller ones at all (which lead to a complete erosion of T&Cs in Belair for example), which is actually quite different from the VC where the main money comes from LH guys and the main part of the work is done for other companies. And yes, each pilot group has to represent themselves and has to negotiate their own CLAs in germany, LH can't help me at all (apart from paying our lawyers) in my non-LH company, simply because it would be illegal.

And of course the current legal framework is always the basis during every negotiation about T&C's, which will make it much harder if not impossible to hold current CLA's. And especially in germany many parts of the CLA's are not defined independent of the current legislation, which means that those CLA's will change with changing rules.

Dream on... Dani! Be happy about the one hour less for you on your joystick, - so you have won another hour that you can do dogfighting with your buddies. Hey: - Enjoy!:ok::ok::ok:

That was a good one - LH pilots helping the other ones. Never laughed so loud since I last dogfighted my joystick :E

LH never had interest in the other pilots corps, they are using the others to fulfill their own goals. How would you explain that all the LH subcontractors are paid a miserable lot and are not even allowed to wear the crane on their fin! This is an absolute pervert missuse towards your collegues. Of course, they are very afraid of them, because they could replace them all. And I promise you, they will, as long as LH pilots have better conditions.

And yes, I agree, Aeropers is exact the same miserable bunch of selfish guys. If you would look further, yes there are good examples, but not in German spoken aviation. Looking further is not their union's strength...

European Flight Duty Time Campaign needs your support
 

Hello.

Some of you might be aware that EASA's new proposals for the becoming new European Flight Duty and Rest Times Regulation have been published on January 18th, 2012 (http://www.easa.eu.int/rulemaking/do...%202010-14.pdf) - with considerable delay after receiving more than 50.000 comments (most ever received by EASA) towards the old NPA as of December 2010.

These proposals will become Europe-wide regulations in 2013. What many do not know: this "law" will not follow the normal democratic avenue that most know from any other legislation, it will not be "adopted" by a majority vote of the European parliament. The reason is a "relict" from the early days of the European Community which is called the "comitology procedure" (see below).

Though the new proposal can be regarded as a "considerable improvement" to the original draft as of last year but it is far from being appropriate. In contrast to the new US regulations (except Cargo, - I know) they are still ignoring scientific research and incident and accident analysis about "fatigue" as a contributing factor.

Therefore some European Pilot Associations have launched a campaign and are collecting signatures of citizens who object these new proposals and support the idea that the new regulations should be based on science rather then commercial interest of the operators.

The campaign is supported by some really funny video spots placed on YouTube. My favorite is this one:


but there are 3 more others available in English, French and German.

English:
French: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05r_...f=mfu_in_order

German:
So please help distribute the message and get also your friends and significant others to sign the petition, available at

www.flightdutytimes.eu




The comitology procedure

The word “comitology” comes from the French word “comité”, or “committee” in English. The first committee to consider binding regulations for the European Economic Community already met in 1962. For its part, the Council of the EEC then determined that it could itself decide whether to issue so-called “implementing regulations” or transfer this task to the European Commission. Fundamentally, once such a regulation is passed and comes into force, it becomes legally binding in all applicable European countries. In 1987, these powers were transferred to the European Commission.



Since then, the Commission has been permitted to issue – in close cooperation with the Member States – binding regulations applicable across Europe. Doing so, it is supported by committees in which civil servants from all Member States are represented. This comitology procedure as currently practised in the EU is regarded by its critics as being undemocratic and lacking in transparency.



Neither the EU Council of Ministers nor the elected members of the European Parliament have any means of influence over this procedure. A regulation which is enacted in the context of a comitology procedure does not have to be submitted to the EU’s legislative bodies for their approval, even though such regulations can have major impacts both positive and negative on the everyday life of its citizens. Likewise, the forthcoming amendments to the Regulation on Flight Duty and Rest Periods are due to be agreed and passed in a comitology procedure.


However the committees which drafted and debated these regulations did not have any official representatives from the passengers on them, such as members of consumer associations or similar organisations.

Thanks for the explanation.
Shouldn't pilots be using FoI, or whatever each country has, to get the names of the Civil Servants sitting on the comitology procedure?
- One could always inform them about the science!...........and air their names a bit.

................and if you think comitology is bad, you should involve yourselves in a nasty little EU process where the UK is represented by an untrustworthy process known as "Ukrep". Basically, Ukrep is where the UK's position on lots of things is horsetraded - with zero application of any science - against other countries positions. It can be as daft as "we will support you on your cow/beef issue, if you support us on the tech spec for cars"

Well doesn't surprise me at all. We have seen that very drastically when the first media reports popped up about the "mad cow disease"... Even very reputable British scientists and professors lost their chairs in the wake of it...

Nevertheless, this nonsense has to be stopped before t.s.h.t.f...

Scotsman - not sure the comparison bewteen blood alcohol and fatigue levels are supported by the sleepy scientists or have i been told duff gen?

We have to remember the vast majority of Europe are already working these limits, in fact in the case of the night hours EASA FTL brings it right down to a more sensible and safe level. :\

Fatigue or poisoned?
 

TvB - would you agree that the recent incident where a German pilot who was made ill during an in flight fume event and was subsequently found to have jet engine oil in his blood may not be fatigued - but was suffering (like many, many others) from Aerotoxic syndrome?


Germania B737 Flight: First Officer Partially Incapacitated By Fumes

Pilot inflight collapse: Germany investigates cabin air poisons - Learmount

BTW Your fatigue videos are....... brilliant! :D

Danger is the one factor promoted in curbing the trajectory of this regulation. Totally valid.

Now, don't we also have the right to health ? I am not going to cover all the types of stresses inherent to this profession. What I believe is this area needs to be tackled as well, especially as our retirement ages (depending on countries) are called to be stretched even further. I strongly believe in that right which ranks second, immediately below the danger factor.

The words "EU" and "democracy" don't belong in the same sentence.

This "comitology" is nothing but a loophole.

I don't know in detail about the new scheme. I have learnt about it in conversation with our FOI as to what we will be allowed. It is far better for us in GA, mainly because we are not stuck with a scheme designed for the convenience of airlines but can make variations backed by a safety case in line with our SMS.

Our FTLs will not change until we have applied for changes. Those changes won't be approved until we have made a safety case. So we will get more flexibility (which believe it or not our pilots want: we want to do the job if at all possible) with safety responsibility in-house but regulated. Seems like a good system for us.

Unions have an interest in restricting what pilots can do. This means airlines need more crew, more crew means more members and more dues. That site ray cosmic linked to was obvious propaganda, you only have to look at the link labelled "facts" to see that it goes to a page about accidents.

er, yes...

thought more jobs was what we all wanted

EASA respond to pressure. The industry can excerpt more than pilots can as we are too busy trying to fly safely to be preoccupied with lobbying for safety, something we should be able to take for granted.

pilot associations action
 

Gentlemen,

Is your home country pilot association planning action ?

It is time to urge our associations to let us know their plans.

Lets get out there

They ( EASA, ECA, etc, ) have to know that we do not accept changes which affect flight safety.

Fatigue kills.

justflyin
Flaymy actually makes some good points which you have choosen to ignore
Flexibility
Safety case
Changes we want
Regulated
Responsibility
For someone possibly at the bottom end of the airline cycle GA it indicates a positive, open understanding. EASA FTL will provide the framework, and active participation by both operator and crewmembers in the SMS will do the rest.

jstflyinA small GA company. Nope (even ignoring your mischaracterisation of the law; it does not disregard safety at all, and for many countries it will mean tightening up of some FTL practices)

I suspect you might be working for the wrong people. I trust my CP, and I trust my Accountable Manager. That is why I work with them. The pilots work with ops whenever there is doubt, to come up with schedules that we can safely fly - and it is the pilots as much as ops who are frustrated by the illogical restrictions of CAP371. Funnily enough we want to fly, that is why we are in this game. We like our work.

Also we have been told exactly this by our FOI, that we will have to apply for any changes with a safety case. It will be decided by the FTL team at the Belgrano.Is this nonsense or irrelevant to the discussion? Depends what you mean, and the sentence is ambiguous. Nope. It not only makes sense, it is actually pretty obvious.

I am quite aware of why unions exist. I am also quite aware that the reasons they exist are part of history - which is why they are going extinct outside the public sector, where there is still profit in extortion because of the ability of governments to survive insane inefficiency. I am also aware of the damage militant unions do to an industry, including aviation. My union gives me some legal protection. If I ever need a lawyer then they will back me. That is it.

leonard sky nerd What makes you think that? We want to fly for a living, and do so well which will, of course, help the image of the industry. The rest is up to someone else.

The market is as big as the demand. Artificial inflation is a poor long-term strategy. It is far better to expand jobs organically by working in a safe, efficient industry providing the product people want at the right price.

Whilst I agree that fatigue in aircraft is not a good thing, I strongly disagree with the perception that the new EASA FTLs allow longer duty times.

Have a look at the draft:

Draft

The flight time limits are:

ORO.FTL.210 Flight duty period (FDP)

Maximum daily FDP — Acclimatised crew members (1-10 sectors)
0600–1329 13:00 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00
1330–1359 12:45 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00
1400–1429 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00
1430–1459 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00
1500–1529 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00
1530–1559 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00
1600–1629 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
1630–1659 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
1700–0414 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0415–0429 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0430–0444 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00 09:00
0445–0459 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00 09:00
0500–0514 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00 09:00
0515–0529 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00 09:00
0530–0544 12:30 12:00 11:30 11:00 10:30 10:00 09:30 09:00 09:00
0545–0559 12:45 12:15 11:45 11:15 10:45 10:15 09:45 09:15 09:00

which measn roughly 1 hrs less duty than my actual FTLs, which are covered by actual JAR/EASA.

I also do not see any worsening for split duty, captains discretion or standby duty. If one can find it, be invited to show me.

Captains desrection is so old as aviation itself. Every discretion report goes to the NAA (national air authority), if above 2 hrs right away. If your airline produces too many reports, your NAA will intervene. Or at least it should. If it doesn't, it's not the fault of new EASA rules.

I still fail to see where this online petition refers to the new EASA rules. I don't know what they want. I find these videos very unrealistic, not funny and very biased. I don't believe that passenger will get a better view of aviation if we shock them with unrealistic stories.

All in all, Vereinigung Cockpit is shooting in its own foot with this campaign, since it fights for something they do not follow anyway (Lufthansa has better FTLs than EASA).

Dani

And Lufthansa mainline is surprisingly just one of 20 pilot groups represented by VC. Many of which have quite outdated FTLs since it is not really easy to negotiate better ones.

Anyway, a splitduty where a 7 hour break on board of the plane is considered sufficient rest for an 18 hour day is not really my idea of good FTLs.

Dani
A well balanced offering. Is it more the case the Unions are trying to "manage" what is perceived by many to be a rogue LCC?

Yes, that's all very well, but the low cost airline expansion over the last 17 years hasn't followed your business model.

With FTLs regarded as some sort of efficiency target not as a limit, perhaps Flight Time Target would be a more appropriate title.

I would have thought that with more pilots, a company would be able to reduce the annual quota of duty hours allocated to each pilot and therefore reduce fatigue.

lucky you, we don't all have this level of trust and respect.

Then it will fail, or at least lose money (not always the same thing in aviation, I grant you). The business plan I stated was a restating of a core principle of capitalism. However I believe the LoCos are doing rather well, so suspect they have grown organically.

Or were you denying that LoCos are safe? Not what I would call part of any business model, in that safety is an underlying assumption and regulatory requirement. However even there I think you would struggle to justify your assertion, something I see you do not attempt.

Proposed EASA Flight Time Limitations - watch this!